The RGX-312 46 tone project

[yldouright]

newey
My experience with the SE-1203 being a partial success in this thread, I thought I'd explore a more ambitious build on a true Yamaha SuperStrat platform. An HSS layout with a 24 fret neck, three tone holes, a body that needs paint and a bridge that needs replacement makes this the next candidate for experimentation. I've settled on the 8 tone setup without a single middle pup option for the time being on the SE-1203. I am a little disappointed I couldn't figure out how to make better use of my half super switch to get the 10 out of the 11 available options excluding the serial connection options. The new guitar project is a 46 tone, made in Japan Yamaha RGX-312. Looks like I can do this with a plain old 5 way, a 3 way mini toggle and three push pull pots. To kick off this project, whats the best value in locking vibrato bridge sets under $100?

[newey]

whats the best value in locking vibrato bridge sets under $100?

I'm not the one to ask, the first thing I do with a vibrato bridge is take the handle off and store it in the case.

But your question would probably garner more answers if you asked it in the Whammy Bar board.

As for your new project, we'll expect a build thread (with photos)

The new guitar project is a 46 tone, made in Japan Yamaha RGX-312.

I have no idea what "46 tone" means. The first guitar I ever rebuilt was a Yamaha EC112, which was a straight-up Strat clone except for a side jack. I've always liked Yamaha electrics, good value for the $$.

As for a wiring scheme for HSS, it's hard to beat JohnH's SSM scheme:
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/6873/strat-ssm2-hss-sounds-dpdt

[yldouright]

newey

Sorry, I should have said 46 pickup combinations instead of 46 tones. It could be 80 combinations if the option to select front or back coil on the bridge HB were in play but we have to find some reasonable cut off point. The fact is, I don't know if I can get 46 distinct tones from 46 pickup combinations but this guy did something similar with two humbuckers without much tonal replication. Would love to see the A+E note scope shots of each of those combinations. Thanks for the link, I'm chewing through it now but there's a lot to digest there. At first glance, my plan seems more efficient and ergonomically superior but I'm sure you guys will let me know if it isn't.

In my wiring scheme, I use 2 volume PP pots with a 3T mini toggle in between them and 1 tone PP pot.

[Deleted]

Hmm

N, M, B, NM, Nm, NB, Nb, MB, Mb, NMB, NmB and Nmb .. 12
If both pickups are phased (OOP) doesn't work as you need some standard to be out of phased with.
Maybe nmB, nMB and nMb will give you some thing so 15
Then can link them N2M, N2B and M2B that's 3 more 18.
We could go for N2M+B, N2M+b, n2m+B, N2M+b, N2B+M, N2B+m, n2b+M, n2b+m, M2B+N, M2B+n, m2b+N, m2b+n and N2M2B that 13 bring up to 31.
Don't know myself what would happen if you phased inside a link N2m!!
So I'll ignore that for now

[newey]

In my wiring scheme, I use 2 volume PP pots with a 3T mini toggle in between them and 1 tone PP pot.

But, what's the scheme? I apologize, I suggested JohnH's SSM because I thought you were looking for wiring ideas for HSS, I didn't know you had a scheme already.

[yldouright]

By now you guys should know I plan only on what is theoretically possible so I'll probably get into trouble with this project the same way I did with the other because of my ignorance of how real world switches work but here's the outline:
1-standard 5 throw does the usual duty
1-volume PP does the BM serial/parallel connection
1-volume PP does the NM serial/parallel connection
1-tone PP reverses the phase on the middle
1-mini 3 throw selects serial, single coil or parallel (U, S or II) B operation.
I tabled the above and its 46 combinations. What do you guys think, can I do this with standard switch parts?

[Deleted]

if just working on the SWITCHING side because two VOLUMES lol 
Hexadecimal Switch 
5Way switch
and 3 2P2T switches i can give you the WORLD

Worse case just the M and B on Phase Switching (OOP)
One Volume and One Tone on Push Pull of the M&B
Could have 22nF or 47nF Tone
N, M, N+M, B, N+B, M+B, N+M+B (7)
N2M, N2B, M2B, N2M2B (4)
N2M+B, N2B+M, M2B+N (3)

m, N+m, b, N+b, m+B, m+b, M+b, N+m+B, N+M+b, N+m+b ( 10)
N2m, N2b, M2b, m2B, m2b, N2m2B, N2M2b, N2m2b (8)
N2m+B, N2M+b, N2m+b, N2B+m, N2b+M, N2b+m, m2B+N, m2b+N, M2b+N (9)

another coil flip 2P2T
n, n+m, n+M, n+B, n+b, n+M+B, n+m+B, n+M+b, n+m+b (9)
n2M, n2m, n2B, n2b, n2m2b, n2M2b, n2m2B, n2M2B (8)
n2M+B, n2m+B, n2m+b, n2M+b, n2B+M, n2b+M, n2b+m, n2B+m, M2B+n, m2B+n, m2b+n, M2B+n, M2b+n (13)

Basic gives you 14
So 2x2P2T gives you about 27 + 14 = 41
and 3x2P2T gives you 30 on top of the 41 = 71 
lot of these will sound the same
Could Double up VOLUME and TONE giving a free hole, but would need 3P8T for a coil flip of every pickup
maybe best to keep Volume and Tone on Push Pull for Middle and Bridge and have little toggle for the Neck.

[yldouright]

@angelisbunny
I know you don't believe me so I guess I'll have to post the table with 46 combos. Once you look them over you might see the logic of my scheme and how elegant it would be ergonomically and mnemonically. The tone pot pull is a phase switch, the bridge volume pot is a bridge and middle serial parallel connection switch and the other volume pot performs the same function on the neck and middle. It's all very intuitive. The mini toggle has only one function and that is to work the internal wiring of the bridge humbucker (II, S or Ø). Give me a day or so and I'll upload my table.

[Deleted]

i was just saying what i can do ... so we got TWO HUMBUCKERS and you want the MOST selections out as Possible without "EDITING"

[yldouright]

The RGX-312 has only one humbucker and it's on the bridge. Below is the logic table I am hoping to accomplish with just one DP3T mini toggle and three PP pots:

Neck    Middle    Bridge HB    Connect
S           
          S       
                      S       

                      H          U

                      H          II

S         S                      U
S         S                      U Ø
S         S                      II Ø
S         S                      II
          S           S          U
          S           S          U Ø
          S           S          II Ø
          S           S          II
S                     S          U
S                     S          U Ø
S                     S          II Ø
S                     S          II
S         S           S          U
S         S           S          U Ø
S         S           S          II Ø
S         S           S          II
S         S           HU         U
S         S           HU         U Ø
S         S           HU         II Ø
S         S           HU         II
S         S           HII        U
S         S           HII        U Ø
S         S           HII        II Ø
S         S           HII        II
S                     HU         U
S                     HU         U Ø
S                     HU         II Ø
S                     HU         II
S                     HII        U
S                     HII        U Ø
S                     HII        II Ø
S                     HII        II
          S           HU         U
          S           HU         U Ø
          S           HU         II Ø
          S           HU         II
          S           HII        U
          S           HII        U Ø
          S           HII        II Ø
          S           HII        II

Note that there are two additional combos not listed and that is when the three positions are live and the BM/MN halves are async with one half connected serially and the other in parallel. You could call this 47 but since it's the same principle, I call it 46 combinations.

[newey]

1-standard 5 throw does the usual duty

Let's be clear, since this is where we got sidetracked on your last project. A "standard" Strat-type 5-position switch, as used on the overwhelming majority of Strats and Strat clones, is not a 5 throw switch. It is a 2P3T switch, with positions 2 and 4 (the so-called "notch" positions) internally connecting 1 and 3, and 3 and 5, in parallel. As I mentioned in the other thread, positions 2 and 4 are not "throws" on the standard Strat switch since one cannot wire those positions independently.

After much going round, we ascertained that your last project did have the very rare 2P5T "half Superswitch". But that is far from a "standard" switch.

What you want can probably be done provided that you in fact have the same "half superswitch" you used in the last project, although it might require a full Superswitch. But a standard Strat 5-way switch probably won't cut it here.

The series/parallel/single coil switch for the bridge HB is straightforward. With respect to the N/M series/parallel and the B/M series/parallel switches, those will need the half (or perhaps full) Superswitch in order to integrate those with the 5-way selector (since you want these switches to work in conjunction with the 5-way, rather than to override the 5-way selector.

[Deleted]

well i had to look what "series split parallel" means..
Series NORTH Parallel
lets take each stage at a time

Now im not sure what he means by Phase when he Points to TWO sets of Pickups 
i can only Phase ONE PICKUP with a Push Pull as they are 2P2T!! so only do the BRIDGE personally
only needs ONE pickup to be out of phase for the effect to work





NN, NN+NS, N, NN2BN, NN2(BN+BS), NN2B, (NN+NS)2(BN), (NN+NS)2(BN+BS), (NN+NS)2B, N2BN, N2(BN+BS), N2B <12>
NN+BN, NN+BN+BS, NN+B, NN+NS+BN, NN+NS+BN+BS, NN+NS+B, N+BN, N+BN+BS, N+B <9>
BS, BS+BN, B <3>
so 24 normal without phasing, +9+9=18 on top 42 in total from the VIDEO what the guy talked about
i wont count BS, BS+BN and B as making any effect if Phased!

Got a bit board and i never like 3 Ways, find it a waste of space

[yldouright]

Now im not sure what he means by Phase when he Points to TWO sets of Pickups
i can only Phase ONE PICKUP with a Push Pull as they are 2P2T!! so only do the BRIDGE personally
only needs ONE pickup to be out of phase for the effect to work

Good catch! That is my error. I cannot expect B&N to be out of phase when only my middle is switched for phase reversal. This could work IF I could simultaneously knocked both the B&N out of phase and left the middle alone but that was the same problem I couldn't get around on the SE-1203. I will eventually look at that again but for now I'm liking the mod it has on it.

newey
Yes, standard means standard like you described with only 3 throws and notches for 2&4 although I believe the RGX-312 might have the same switch as the SE-1203. I'll have to check it.

[JohnH]

I think that the list of 46 tones shows an ambitious intent, but turning that into a set of real switches will be much harder than may be expected. Need to plan out how the switches should interact. For example, if the 5way is at a notch position creating a parallel setting, and you pull the series switches what should happen? which switch wins?

It might be a good idea to make a table of switch positions, eg, rows for each combination of the two-poisition switches, and columns for each 5-way position. Then list the intended pickup combo in each cell.

btw. I love hss on a guitar, so Ive tried to work out a few. If you really want to stick with a standard simple 5-way, that SSM design newey linked to above gets you a lot of what you want, and avoids some that you may not need. A phase switch could be added. It also has a series blend knob, but it could be a series switch instead.

[Deleted]

SSH

Hmm could change the 2P2T on-on-on for a 2P4T rotary , small things and will give you serial parallel North and South.
Then if you go for the 4P5T switch than the 2P3T in the video for the HH guitar, you could use another push pull for Middle.
Or could keep as is and we go 4P5T and use the now defunked push pull to phase the middle only , but the middle only comes in to play when in series and parallel with the Neck.


SMALL 2P4T Rotary Switch


2P2T few types
On-on
On-off (same as on-on just don't use one leg some times it's chopped off)
On-off-on (strange to call it 2T but only two states are active )
On-on-on (this is a complex on to get head around , as you need to know which leg is active in mid state . [Beep test is easy] they are normal opposite each other )

[newey]

On-on-on (this is a complex on to get head around , as you need to know which leg is active in mid state

Certainly easy enough to test, and I test all switches before wiring them, just in case.

But it is also easy to just remember that, in the center position, as you look at the contacts, it will always be the lower left and upper right.

[yldouright]

newey

The right graphic eliminates any further explanation. Thanks.

quoted below by JohnH

For example, if the 5way is at a notch position creating a parallel
setting, and you pull the series switches what should happen? which
switch wins?

This was the crux of the problem I ran into on the SE-1203 (10 combo SSS). However, if we break the problem down into logical modules, we should be able to get there. Let's look at what seems functional:

1. The main selector is a standard 3T found on a Strat and it will accept the switch parameters before it.

2. The phase switching tone pot is two stages before the selector input. In the current topology, it only switches the M position. Leaving the M position alone and switching B&N as a pair would seem more elegant and provide more options but this will necessitate changes in the other related switches that I haven't thought out yet. It may not be possible to switch the pair out of phase with a single conventional switch, if someone can sort that out, I can apply that solution both here and on the SE-1203.

3. The mini toggle is dedicated to the B position and on the same plane as the phase switch. Assuming a four wire humbucker, it needs to output those two coils connected in parallel (P1), in series (P3) or one of those two coils by itself (P2). Maybe an on-off-on type DPDT switch will allow only one of the two coils to be nixed from the output when in P2.

4. The stage immediately before the selector include the two serial parallel switches and that is where I get stuck. I'm hoping the 2 PP's can be configured to handle the conduits before it. Seems like it should be able to but I've thought that before.

Schematically, the text above looks like the diagram below:

            |---->B toggle---->|

pickups---->|                  |serial/parallel---->selector

            |---->M phase----->|

I should disclose that I reviewed your circuit and it was quite ingenious in the scope of tone fine tuning achievable with it but its weakness in my opinion was ergonomic. It's one thing to have infinite tone parameters and another using them in real life.

@angelisbunny

Dude, you're a firestorm of ideas but can we just try to see if we can sort out the connections without changing the stated devices? I want you guys to know that I can get these things done easily with a silicon switch but I don't like active circuits on my guitars.

[sumgai]

Oct 12, 2019 11:32:06 GMT -5 yldouright said:

Oct 11, 2019 20:45:21 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Need to plan out how the switches should interact. For example, if the 5way is at a notch position creating a parallel setting, and you pull the series switches what should happen? which switch wins?

1. The main selector is a standard 3T found on a Strat and it will accept the switch parameters before it.

Stop right there!  You can't do that, and the reason for that is likely the root cause of why you can't figure out everything you want.

When John asked you "which switch wins", that was a trick question.  The clue was "notch position creating a parallel setting".  From that, it should become a llight-bulb moment that you will never have series if the 3T is last in line (before the pots and jack). 

Long story short, ditch the 3T, step up to the counter, and give the nice man as much money as he wants for a true half-Superswitch at the least.  With a full SuperSwitch (4P5T) you have a whole world of possibilities, and everything I just said becomes null and void.

HTH

sumgai

[JohnH]

Oct 12, 2019 11:32:06 GMT -5 yldouright said:

1. The main selector is a standard 3T found on a Strat and it will accept the switch parameters before it.

Only if you accept the limitations of this type of switch and the constraints on options resulting, and work around it (see more below)

Assuming a four wire humbucker, it needs to output those two coils connected in parallel (P1), in series (P3) or one of those two coils by itself (P2). Maybe an on-off-on type DPDT switch will allow only one of the two coils to be nixed from the output when in P2.

To do this with a 3-position toggle, it needs to be an on-on-on, of the type explained above by newey. It gives you series/single/parallel from the humbucker coils.

All OK so far. You can have the phase switch on one pickup (M as you have chosen), and locally configure the humbucker coils. So the design of what follows can be thought of as three self-contained pickups arriving at the series/parallel and 5-way switches.

4. The stage immediately before the selector include the two serial parallel switches and that is where I get stuck. I'm hoping the 2 PP's can be configured to handle the conduits before it. Seems like it should be able to but I've thought that before.

If you look though various of our diagrams, you'll see a few designs where series options have been added to Strats with standard 5-way switches. Because of the way this switch inherently shorts out two connections in the 2 and 4 positions, it tends to create some repeat combinations that cant be avoided. It can still be a useful design though. For example, with one switch for S/P, you can quite easily go from the usual:

B, B+M, M, M+N, N to,
B*M, M, M, M, N*M

+ being parallel, * being series.

But that is probably not what you had in mind. So I still suggest to help move forward, do that table to explain your intent. This can ignore the phase and Bridge options, and just relate to exactly what you want to happen in 5x2x2 =20 switch settings, being the 5 way, and your two 2-position switches.

I should disclose that I reviewed your circuit and it was quite ingenious in the scope of tone fine tuning achievable with it but its weakness in my opinion was ergonomic. It's one thing to have infinite tone parameters and another using them in real life.

Each to their own. In my real life, this is my No.1 guitar that I practice, jam and occasionally gig with almost every day for the last 6 years. It works for me because I can get the main changes I want preset and swipe between them with just the 5 way. But I don't usually use the bridge single and parallel sounds often, so Im happy that they take two switch moves.

[Deleted]

Oct 12, 2019 11:32:06 GMT -5 yldouright said:

@angelisbunny

Dude, you're a firestorm of ideas but can we just try to see if we can sort out the connections without changing the stated devices? I want you guys to know that I can get these things done easily with a silicon switch but I don't like active circuits on my guitars.

Well the
1st IMAGE shows how the TOGGLE switches work
2nd IMAGE shows the Full circuit used in the VIDEO what is for a HH set up
3rd IMAGE shows what you could do if using a 4P5T than a 2P3T
4th IMAGE shows what you can do if you then change the Toggle for a 2P4T so you can use it with a SSH than HH and use the Middle Pickup.

So I've shown you HOW the VIDEO circuit WORKS
I've shown how to cut it down to make one less Push Pull Switch + Added kill selection
Also I've changed the circuit so it works with a SSH and does more than the crappy HH one would of done (which took me a few seconds to draw out)

and if you want to use Transistors do to switching, go a head. Because that is a bit more harder than BASIC switching (what this is) 

Circuit Drawings

[yldouright]

sumgai

Stop right there!  You can't do that, and the reason for that is likely
the root cause of why you can't figure out everything you want.

Noted, the order of the logic modules matters but we can move those or make them a parallel stage if the module itself can be made to work the function desired.

@angeisbunny

Forgive me, when I saw the rotary switch in the graphic I glossed over the rest. I'll look at it again.

JohnH

I never said your scheme couldn't work for you and others, I'm just looking for something a bit simpler to work for me.

[sumgai]

'right,


Your thinking is right on target - 'modules' is indeed the name of the game. I now have confidence that you'll get your desired results, knowing that you need only think in terms of 'switching logic' and 'modules'.

BTW, many of the parts and pieces you need have already been devised and tested.  Look in our Modules section for good starting points.  A few other threads have also built modules, but they were never moved/copied over to the proper Modules thread(s).  Still, for your purposes I'm sure that this link will suffice.

Design Modules





sumgai

[yldouright]

sumgai

The "Quick Links" sticky thread member wolf put together in the Modules section would be an invaluable resource if the Photobucket links weren't borked. Have a look. Most every one I clicked on was just as indiscernable.

[sumgai]

'right,


Some time ago PhotoForgetAboutIt took a dump on those very people who made it big and famous, sorry to say. In a nutshell (and not of the Nutz kind), they wanted money from everybody, period. Some of our images stored there belong to members no longer present and accounted for, or in a few cases, they've passed away. Kinda hard to get money out of someone who's never received notice of that desire, eh?

So when Pb hosed every forum in the land, we fired up our own guns, and made a script that recovered from Pb's error in judgment. But we knew at the time that it was temporary, and now the Piper has come calling at the gates. I'm not sure how we'll recover from this one, and we may not recover more than a fraction of what we'd like, but rest assured, we're not giving up until the fat lady has sung, gone home, showered, and put her feet up with a large bowl of Haagen-Dazs.

Stay tuned!






sumgai

[yldouright]

sumgai

Destroying a resource like that is effin' tragic. If we don't start piercing the corporate veil and start putting some of these jokers in jail we're gonna keep getting crapped on. Start with the bankers and work your way down the servant class from there. Anyway, back on topic:

I looked again at shorting the pickups from the B,M,N selector position 3 and it occurred to me that better use can be made of those poles if we create a module that adds N, in or out of phase to selector position 1 and 2. This seems doable with a DPDT On-Off-On toggle (N added in phase on one side and out of phase on the other with no input on the middle). Using this opens up a whole other set of options including B out of phase with M&N. Looks like 69 combinations with 2V+T PPs and 2DPDT mini toggles. An abbreviated version with only 1V+1T PPs and the two mini toggles gets us 51 combinations. We only lose the B U M U N set when all three pups are outputting. I think I'm going to abandon the shorting scheme on the B,BM,BMN,NM,N selector config. By the way, what is meant by a hanging hot?

[b4nj0]

It's a fine line between the actions of Photochucket and those bottom feeders that encrypt files and demand bitcoin to restore them. Both are holding a metaphorical gun to folks' head. Photochucket has just conjured up a way to do it legally, but the ulterior motive is pretty much the same. I fear that they are just the vanguard trail blazers.

e&oe ...

[yldouright]

b4nj0

Yes, ultimately it is a spiritual defect in humanity. Julius Ceaser had it right when he limited land ownership to 100 hectares. There absolutely is such a thing as too many resources under the control of too few, the only thing it leads to is vice and meglomania and that goes for all those controlling from either side of the political spectrum. Wealth is a beautiful thing that everyone should experience but let it be merited. I don't see how some of these multigenerational fops are any more deserving of it than the homeless beggar. If we look at this philosophically, the man given wealth without merit is the one who is needy in that he has lost his incentive to change things for the better. The beggar strives to survive, the rich man strives to impede challenges and competition. Who is more spiritually pure?

[newey]

OK, everyone involved in this thread, let's get back to talking about guitars and leave the ideology and economic theory out of it. I don't want to have to start parsing threads for non-germane comments, so let's get this back on track.

yldouright, you originally stated that you wanted:

1-standard 5 throw does the usual duty
1-volume PP does the BM serial/parallel connection
1-volume PP does the NM serial/parallel connection
1-tone PP reverses the phase on the middle
1-mini 3 throw selects serial, single coil or parallel (U, S or II) B operation.

Since then, we have (apparently) clarified that you have/intend to use a std. Strat-style 2P3T 5-position switch. If so, JohnH's comments are important:

If you look though various of our diagrams, you'll see a few designs where series options have been added to Strats with standard 5-way switches. Because of the way this switch inherently shorts out two connections in the 2 and 4 positions, it tends to create some repeat combinations that cant be avoided. It can still be a useful design though. For example, with one switch for S/P, you can quite easily go from the usual:

B, B+M, M, M+N, N to,
B*M, M, M, M, N*M

+ being parallel, * being series.

But that is probably not what you had in mind. So I still suggest to help move forward, do that table to explain your intent. This can ignore the phase and Bridge options, and just relate to exactly what you want to happen in 5x2x2 =20 switch settings, being the 5 way, and your two 2-position switches.

You should address that before we go any further. Then we get:

We only lose the B U M U N set when all three pups are outputting. I think I'm going to abandon the shorting scheme on the B,BM,BMN,NM,N selector config.

Where was there ever going to be an "all 3 pickups at once" option? Originally, the 5-position switch was doing "the usual duty", which does not include all 3 pickups. The other 4 switches are doing other things- putting two pickups in series, putting the middle OOP, and selecting S/P/SC on the HB. So, what switch position is giving you the "all 3" option?

Three of us have now expressly told you that, at the very least, what you want will require at a minimum a 2P5T switch, and perhaps the full 4P5T Superswitch. You seem to believe otherwise, so if you have a diagram to do this, let's see it.

[JohnH]

btw, if you could accept that no combinations with all three pickups at once are provided, then provided a full 4-pole superswitch is used, we already have a scheme built and tested. (Strat SP hss)

[newey]

By the way, what is meant by a hanging hot?

Disconnecting a pickup at the ground end, while leaving the "hot" output lead still connected. This disconnects the pickup just fine, but could, in theory, induce noise into the signal, as the long coil of wire inside your pickup makes a fairly effective antenna . . .

We have bandied this around, IIRC some testing was even done, and the consensus seemd to be that it was a minor issue in most cases- to be avoided if possible, but not a deal-breaker, necessarily. Given that most folks play their guitars in electrical environments with highly variable sources of electrical "noise", no guarantees that, under some circumstances, it might make a difference in the noise. So, it is accounted as a best practice to avoid leaving coils "hanging from the hot" when possible.

Some wiring schemes accept the hanging coils as a necessary evil, in order to get the results one wants. And it may be just fine 95% of the time, right up until the next Friday night when your band has to set up underneath a dozen neon beer signs with dodgy circuitry.


The work-around to avoid hanging coils typically means a switch with more poles, so that both ends of the coil can be switched. But not every type of switch configuration exists (or doesn't exist in a size of use in a guitar), so sometimes compromises are made.