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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 29, 2019 9:05:00 GMT -5
Thanks RT
Taking on board what your saying. I agree, I’m totally out of my depth. I think I still want to go ahead and try this if it can work. I have ideas for refinement later on such as losing 2 of the 4 unneeded OOP switches, and swapping the 4 on/off switches for 2 neck/both/bridge switches. This would bring the 13 total switches down to 9. But for now I just want to cross the finish line with the original idea.
I also had the same idea of putting the mode switch in between the on/offs and the output jack, but yeah, I will shelf that idea for the moment or I will get lost on tangents.
— Okay, in summary
Get a 4PDT switch (one pole for each lead of each pickup)
When I switch to the series section, make sure at least one of the pickups is on in the parallel section or it will produce bad humming.
When I switch to parallel mode, make sure at least one of the pickup switches is turned on in the series section or the output will shunted to ground, and also make sure the HOOP switch for that pickup is off or it will put the cap across the entire output
Okay, having thought about it, I don’t think I would ever turn both pickups off in real life playing, I would always have at least one on, so that sidesteps any humming or shunting. The only thing to consciously avoid would be leaving the HOOP switch on.
—
So if you think it will work , can I go ahead and attempt it? I just need to buy some switches
I’d also need a bit of guidance on wiring up the 4PDT switch but will try and figure it out myself first
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Post by sumgai on Dec 29, 2019 11:59:29 GMT -5
occ,
You are following a companion thread on this topic, aren't you?
Troubleshoot Red Special wiring with serial/parallel switch
I think you're going to find a lot of help therein, but if it's still puzzling you, then keep asking questions here. (Trying to keep from taking over other people's threads, you understand.)
Personally.....
reTrEaD calls it "switch-rash", but I'd call it "switch-madness". Even for nothing more than experimental purposes, it's both costly and error/failure prone to duplicate functionality. The only reason to justify a dual-control setup like the one you're contemplating would be for using each as a "preset" condition, switching back and forth to desired tonalities, and never moving off of those configurations. At that point, I'd simplify like mad, wouldn't you?
sumgai
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Post by frets on Dec 29, 2019 15:11:02 GMT -5
Clarion, I’ve really not read every post so ignore this diagram if it does not fit your intent. This is from my files, probably has redundancies; but, it’s an oldie and wouldn’t have made my files if it did not work. Note that it’s for three pickups but the same logic would follow for two.
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Post by reTrEaD on Dec 29, 2019 15:29:48 GMT -5
So if you think it will work , can I go ahead and attempt it? I just need to buy some switches Aside from the issues I mentioned, I don't see any reason why it won't 'work'. I’d also need a bit of guidance on wiring up the 4PDT switch but will try and figure it out myself first There isn't anything special you need to know about the wiring of the 4PDT switch. Every pickup lead gets its own pole. The throws on one end of the switch connect each pickup lead to the appropriate point in the series section. The throws on the other end of the switch connect each pickup lead to the appropriate point on the parallel section. One thing to keep in mind, although you're probably already aware of this ... On slide switches and push-pulls, the pole connects to the throw on the same end as the physical motion of the actuator. For instance, if the slide is moved downward on the page, the pole connects to the throw on the bottom of the switch. On toggle switches, the opposite is true. Flip the toggle up and the pole connects to the throw on the bottom. Also, regarding capacitors for HooP ... For series-half-out-of-phase, using a larger cap will cause the HooP tone to sound more different than OoP, using a smaller cap will make it sound more similar. For parallel-half-out-of-phase the opposite is true. A larger cap will sound more similar to OoP. A smaller cap will sound more different than OoP The 0.01 µF caps will probably be right-sized for the parallel section. I think you will be happier with 0.047 µF or (even 0.1 µF) in the series section. But as always: season to taste.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 29, 2019 15:45:50 GMT -5
RT
thanks for the tips , will bear these in mind
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 29, 2019 15:47:49 GMT -5
Sumgai
Haven’t seen this thread , no, but cool, il take a look
As far as the switch madness , I would be happy to let it die if there was an alternative wiring to get me what I want. I had a look around the internet and forums here but couldn’t really find anything I couldn’t really find anything along the lines of what I wanted to do. Again, I wanted to get it just to toggle switches and avoid pots and everything else. Also to try and keep what I’m doing within the realms of my understanding. I feel like all the hurdles I’m hiting are just enough to keep me on a nice learning curve, so I’m happy to keep hacking up my old guitar to bits and cover it in switches for the moment. I’m having fun 😊 my only goal really is to get the sounds I want, I don’t care too much about other criteria just now if I can get away with it, and this is still a work in progress, there’s more I want to add to it .
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 29, 2019 15:48:41 GMT -5
Frets
ey thanks very much 😃, really appreciate it, I will study this later once I’m free of the 8 month year old 😊 as I can’t concentrate with her rolling around the floor making noise haha
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 29, 2019 16:20:10 GMT -5
Frets
Wow, fantastic. Looks like I could ditch my 13 switches for 5 of yours now 😄 (I’m only using two pickups )
Your going to regret sharing that with me as I could start asking lots of questions haha
Youl have to tell me some of the backstory on this and what inspired the half out of phase switches? I’ve been searching the internet for HOOP wiring and found a few interesting things. I’ve noticed that some folks use a cap and others use a cap and a resistor. I don’t know much about that but I’d like to know more . The Jerry Donahue tele has 5 different sounds. One of them is the neck with a cap. (I would like to try this too) and also the neck and bridge are out of phase with a cap and resistor on the neck pickup. Sounds very like a strat 2 or 4 position. Maybe this actually is half out phase ?
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Post by frets on Dec 29, 2019 17:15:10 GMT -5
Clarion, I can’t remember why I had the half phases in there, that diagram is like 5 yo. I just knew from the sidelines that I had done something similar with on/off/ons handling the pickup on/offs and the phase. I looked and looked and finally found it. But this diagram is old so let the experts on here provide their opinions as to its feasibility. Like I said, it wouldn’t be in my old drawings if it did not work out. The value of the resistor (and you don’t need them if you don’t want them) should be between 2k - 6.2k.
Two things to note - your pickup on/offs and your phase can all go on one on/off/on per pickup. And the series switch need only utilize two pickups anyway. Even if the more experienced guys find faults in this old diagram, the big point is, you can do what you want to do with a lot less switches.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 29, 2019 17:45:17 GMT -5
Frets
Hey , thanks for looking, this is a tremendous help. I looked around the internet and wiring diagrams and could not find much with HOOP
What do the resistors do alongside the cap?
“Two things to note - your pickup on/offs and your phase can all go on one on/off/on per pickup.“
Yeah, I was just thinking While looking at your diagram that by changing the OOP switch to on/off/on the ability to turn the pickup off would help get rid of the pickup on/off switches. Nice
Having said that, I actually want to do more with this circuit .....
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 29, 2019 17:56:12 GMT -5
...I don’t want to use any pots , but I would like to add in a switch with the ability to drop the volume of a pickup say for example in half. I explored this with the guys in a previous post, my original idea was having volume selection on a strat 5 way switch or 3 way. I work as a guitar teacher and sometimes it might be nice to drop my volume or crank it up with the flick of a switch while I’m speaking to students or demonstrating stuff. Another thing is I might want a 10-20db volume boost for doing a solo in a band situation. Also, maybe something similar with tone. I would be happy to just have like a dark and bright setting on a switch to give a bit of variety. One other thing as you can read in the pic below was a guy saying that you can get two different sounds by modifying a OOP switch So yeah. I like the idea of having as little switches as possible , but perhaps my extra switches might come in handy if and when I need them to attempt some the above mentioned things
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Post by frets on Dec 29, 2019 20:01:56 GMT -5
Clarion, the resistor just trims off some of the highs. Why don’t you want a volume? You could have a Volume with a Blower Switch and keep the volume on a set position and then just use the blower to circumvent your volume with the whole pup signal going directly to the amp.
You have to have resistance to do this 50% to 100% volume change thing you desire. You could wire in a trimpot that globally sets your volume at a level you desire with another switch to “blow” the signal’s travel past the trimpot directly to the jack. But I gotta ask “why?” I’m a pretty wild mad scientist when it comes to mods; but, I would think you have to have a variable resistor (volume) to set the guitar’s “loudness” in various situations. All venues are not the same and volume needs matriculation in order to fit a playing scenario.
So, you whack the volume pot, put in a trimpot in the wiring, attach it to a switch for bypass and that adds another switch. Do a two cap 3 Tone series switch and that’s another switch. So now you have a guitar with two half phases, two phases/pup on/off’s, a series switch, a volume switch and a tone switch. 7 switches and no knobs. I think you’d end up being disappointed in the result. You’re limiting your flexibility in real life scenarios if you go potless. Have you heard the difference between a half phase and a phase on a Single Coil? It’s not a monumental difference.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 30, 2019 21:09:40 GMT -5
Och aye the noo laddies, coming to you from the land of castles and golf courses. How am I doing ? Here’s a rough sketch, am I close ? The 4PDT is turned on it’s side to make the diagram easier to read. I also swapped the - and + on the parallel side to make it look nice 🙂
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 30, 2019 21:46:44 GMT -5
Frets
sorry for the long delay in replying
i want to keep it simple for my brain at the moment as I explore switches and learn how to use them . I will probably come to a stage where I explore pots in depth but not yet.
I work as a guitar teacher and have other guitars at work I use but at home I’m using one to experiment on. It’s not really for gigging with, more learning and exploring
I did think about having a volume pot or two set to specific volumes and hidden under the pickguard that I can introduce into the circuit by .... drumroll ... more switch’s lol.
I like switches, something satisfying in flicking a switch and I like how they look. Funny how powerful asthetics are in our decision making eh. I don’t like pots on a guitar , too bulky for my (would you believe) minimalistic streak.
Another reason I didn’t want pots is because I want to hear everything I can get from the pickup (I will be exploring different pickups too as I go) and if I understand correctly pots will cut off some of those frequencies? I know there are 1 meg pots but don’t know if they are still stealing what’s coming from the pickup. I don’t know if trimpots are like pots and come in 250k/500k etc ? Or if they work differently
The “two cap 3 Tone series switch” sounds Interesting
overall my goals are probably not logical or systematic but I’m having a lot of fun and my motivation is continuing with nice momentum
im going for “extremes and in betweens” to give me a birds eye view of the land . the extremes are ,no volume , full volume and the in between is half volume. Same for tone, I want the full sound of the pickup straight to the output jack , something at the opposite end and something in between. In phase out of phase and half phase speaks for itself. Parallel and series , no In between there, but you get the idea.
im not even necessarily going after what sounds good, I wang to hear what sounds bad such as a really cheap pickup or an out of phase sound or ice pick treble , so I can then see what it is that actually improves these things.
its interesting when you pick up a cheap strat copy and it sounds really bad , then you play USA strat and there is a significant difference. What specifically is it that is making the difference? Anyway, I’m rambling away there.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 30, 2019 22:07:04 GMT -5
Clarion, I’ve really not read every post so ignore this diagram if it does not fit your intent. This is from my files, probably has redundancies; but, it’s an oldie and wouldn’t have made my files if it did not work. Note that it’s for three pickups but the same logic would follow for two. I am quite tempted to just copy yours , but there are a few things I don’t understand, and although it would give me what I want quicker I wouldn’t be gaining in the Long run. Anyway, a few questions 1. the middle phase switch has an extra black wire that attaches to the series parallel switch. What is this for ? Why don’t the other two pickups have the same wire ? If I were to copy your diagram for a two pickup guitar, on which pickups phase switch would I attach this extra black wire ? 2. it looks like there is a bit cut off the top of the photo of the diagram but I assume it is just the hot and ground wires going up to the three pickups ? 3. I’m sure it’s just my ignorance but on the half phase switches, I’m not seeing a clear path of the hot and ground going right through the cap and resistor and out the other side. It looks like the hot for example goes through the cap and comes to a dead end.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2019 13:42:07 GMT -5
this is a bit nasty. 4 switches to the do the job of two this "Hoop" is the same both sides really
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 31, 2019 13:47:20 GMT -5
AngeisBunny
That’s Japanese to me 😊
Youl have to explain what’s going on in the diagram/schematic thingy
is this Frets’ wiring ?
Edit: there’s a 4PDT so I’m guessing it’s mine or similar . Still don’t have a clue what it means tho 😁
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Post by sumgai on Dec 31, 2019 15:09:51 GMT -5
occ, Look closely at the two on/off switches for the series side... see how they both provide a shunt (short circuit) around each pup, as needed to turn off a pup? When both are off, what happens between the output jack's hot and ground terminals?
Tha's right, a direct short circuit (shunt). Now in the series mode, that might be considered a good thing, even though it's actually a "dead spot", and most guitarists abhor such a thing - makes an accidental hitting of that particular combo whilst on stage an embarrassing moment, to say the least.
But that creates another problem we need to solve. Do you recall when reTrEaD said, back in reply #29:
.... - If you leave the series side connected when you switch to parallel mode, at least one of the pickup switches MUST be turned on, on the series side, else the output will shunted to ground by the on-off switches on the series side. He said some other things too, but I want to restate the sentence I've underlined: ... no more than one pickup may be switched off. on the series side... The reason I've changed that around is to emphasize the meaning - if you have both switches off, then the whole thing visits the dumpster even when you've selected parallel mode. 'Struth.
In the diagram's current incarnation, you can solve this most easily with a 6PDT, to replace the 4PDT currently in use. Simply use the two new poles to control the output jack's terminals - they either receive signal from the series side, or from the parallel side, but never from both at the same time. Voila, no more accidental shorting of the output when in parallel mode. (Some users might point out that this would also give you a way to achieve a "stutter" effect, but I'm above that sort of thing. )
Depending on where you decide to insert control pots into the circuit, so far you haven't harmed the signal on it's way out the door. Switch madness might cause a moment's panic as you try to recall how to capture "that sound" you want, but the signal itself is not been subjected to tone-robbing controls.... yet. We'll see what's coming down the pike, eh?
HTH
sumgai
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Post by frets on Dec 31, 2019 16:26:59 GMT -5
Clarion, You’re better off listening to Sumgai, Retread and Bunny. I probably just confused the matter. They are the Masters. Do what they tell you to do if you want to accomplish everything in your mind.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 31, 2019 20:17:23 GMT -5
Sumgai Still a few things I don’t understand, but I think I get the jist of what you and RT are saying, although I didn’t quite grasp it the first time , I’m glad you’ve brought me back to it again as I think I see what your saying. So when it’s in parallel mode and both on/off switches are off , the current can’t return back through the series side but is going through this short loop and back to the output jack ? thanks for the 6PDT idea, il have to sit down and chew it over
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 31, 2019 20:19:23 GMT -5
Clarion, You’re better off listening to Sumgai, Retread and Bunny. I probably just confused the matter. They are the Masters. Do what they tell you to do if you want to accomplish everything in your mind. They are a lovely bunch 😊 keep chipping in though , I’ve been inspired by your comments and was having a go at redrawing your diagram for 2 pickups, I’m really interested to see if I can make it work
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 31, 2019 20:21:17 GMT -5
Can anyone give feedback on the diagram frets shared? I like the look of it and would like to try and develop it alongside my own idea. here was my attempt to redraw it for 2 pickups
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Post by frets on Dec 31, 2019 21:15:05 GMT -5
Clarion, yours is not quite the same as the mine. Like I said, mine old - at least 5 years old. I can say it works but it needs to be tested. Note that I am not in the same league as Sumgai, Newey, Retread, Trag, Bunny, John; and, any other Master I did not list. From my original, I will build it unless the guys say it’s a waste of time. It will be the Series switch that may kill it. So I’ll build it and report back.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 31, 2019 21:36:16 GMT -5
Clarion, yours is not quite the same as the mine. Like I said, mine old - at least 5 years old. I can say it works but it needs to be tested. Note that I am not in the same league as Sumgai, Newey, Retread, Trag, Bunny, John; and, any other Master I did not list. From my original, I will build it unless the guys say it’s a waste of time. It will be the Series switch that may kill it. So I’ll build it and report back. I removed the left pickup , removed the volume pot and swapped the - and + wiring to opposite sides on the series/parallel switch , just to make it a bit tidier visually , but it’s pretty close other than that. yeah, it would be good to hear what the pros have to say
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Post by frets on Dec 31, 2019 21:38:51 GMT -5
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 31, 2019 21:53:21 GMT -5
Frets
cool. Okay that makes sense to me now, as I was looking at your diagram it looked like it was putting the middle and bridge in series , but the neck pickup had no series connection(maybe I’m wrong there)
possibly lucky for me I’m only using two pickups so I think I’ve chosen the right two from your diagram.
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Post by sumgai on Jan 1, 2020 12:52:44 GMT -5
occ,
We so-called "Masters" are throwing frets in the pool, and seeing how well he can swim. You're the "test dummy" whom he is supposed to save. Unless you're about to commit hari-kari on your wallet, we're staying in the background. (Or at least I am, I'm speaking only for myself, but looking back the recent posting history....)
frets; Hope you can do more than just dog-paddle!
(Ashully, so far you haven't too bad at all. )
sumgai
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Post by frets on Jan 1, 2020 15:24:25 GMT -5
Master Sumgai, I’m going in with all the gumption I can muster. I have tons of switches so making it will be no financial burden. Tayda and Chinese Switches from AliExpress. Total cost less than three fifty. I’m wearing my floaties in this pool. If you don’t hear from me......well, know that I loved you guys...
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 1, 2020 15:26:15 GMT -5
Master Sumgai, I’m going in with all the gumption I can muster. I have tons of switches so making it will be no financial burden. Tayda and Chinese Switches from AliExpress. Total cost less than three fifty. I’m wearing my floaties in this pool. If you don’t hear from me......well, know that I loved you guys... 😄 come on in the waters nice 👍 haha
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Post by reTrEaD on Jan 1, 2020 16:47:57 GMT -5
Can anyone give feedback on the diagram frets shared? I like the look of it and would like to try and develop it alongside my own idea. here was my attempt to redraw it for 2 pickups It works to some extent but it's far more useful in the parallel mode than in the series mode. In either mode, at least one pickup must be on ... else you'll get no sound and a LOT of hum. In the series mode, BOTH pickups must be on ... else you'll get no sound and a LOT of hum. The capacitors for HooP are in the right location for the parallel mode. The capacitors for HooP are in the wrong location for the series mode. They will remove the low frequency content from both pickups, even if only one pickup is switched to HooP.
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