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Post by perfboardpatcher on Feb 26, 2020 13:51:14 GMT -5
It might be worth just considering which cap you have where. For a series combo of coils, where one coil is bypassed by a cap, you want a cap in the range around 0.047 to 0.1uF. For pickups in parallel, one of which has a cap in series, id expect you'd want a very small cap. Might your caps be the other way around? Argh 😖 ok, now I see what your saying . Yes I think I’ve got the caps in the wrong places 🤗 and I was trying to be so careful to do it right , not sure how I got that one wrong ! Oh well, I’m glad that might be mystery solved but then I might now lose a sound that I like haha 11m40s in the yt clip for clean (series coils with both caps on) sounds o.k. to me.
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Post by JohnH on Feb 26, 2020 15:57:57 GMT -5
I havnt checkdd the wiring and can't do the sound clip now, but my thought was if the two cap values were swapped with each other, even if the wiring was ok, then the hoop and series bypassed sounds may all tend to be very similar to having no caps.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Feb 26, 2020 17:51:09 GMT -5
I havnt checkdd the wiring and can't do the sound clip now, but my thought was if the two cap values were swapped with each other, even if the wiring was ok, then the hoop and series bypassed sounds may all tend to be very similar to having no caps. I swapped the caps round and there seems to be a noticeable difference but I won’t be able to tell until I go to work on Friday and play/record again to compare with the last videos I made. It seems like when I have one pickup on and I try to engage the cap via the hoop switch nothing happens Also when both pickups are on in parallel and I try both hoop switches , nothing changes. Also putting on both hoop switches at the same time does nothing . But when it’s in series mode , it seems like the hoop switches do produce noticeable differences , especially when both hoop switches are on at the same time. It gets dark or very dark (this was the sound perf liked from the video and mentioned earlier ) So why am I getting a variation of sounds from the series side but not parallel? Hmmm I also tonight moved the middle pickup closer to the neck to see if that would help my ears spot any subtle changes in sound , but no , the hoop switches are having no effect in parallel mode. And that’s with both the 0.1uF and the 0.01uF caps. Is it possible there is something wrong with my wiring ? My soldering wasn’t the best and some of the wire going through the lugs is quite long. Could something be touching somewhere ?
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Post by ourclarioncall on Feb 26, 2020 17:59:27 GMT -5
I havnt checkdd the wiring and can't do the sound clip now, but my thought was if the two cap values were swapped with each other, even if the wiring was ok, then the hoop and series bypassed sounds may all tend to be very similar to having no caps. Also one thing to note that I forgot about , that Sumgai pointed out earlier in this thread is that the hoop switches are actually out of phase switches plus the cap. So, if I switch both pickups on in parallel and in phase , then switch on one of the Hoop switches, it’s reversing the phase of that pickup and is now therefore out of phase , but then you have the cap as well for the “half out of phase sound”. If after that I then switch on one of the OOP switches then this will reverse the phase back again so it’s “in phase - half out of phase” Confusing or wot 😁
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Post by ourclarioncall on Feb 28, 2020 12:29:59 GMT -5
Okay, second attempt
Here’s the clean sounds
And here’s the overdrive
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Post by JohnH on Feb 28, 2020 14:15:21 GMT -5
This morning I got a cup of coffee and watched both the last pair of vids al the way through, thanks for posting them.
First, I love the Doc Brown/Frankenstein/EVH electrical-tape stripey aesthetic! Second, for demonstrating tones on a complex wiring, it was very good. Well recorded with nice licks, and also I could follow what you were doing through the descriptions and watching the switch flicking. And the overdrive tones were not too dirty that they masked what the wiring options were doing.
So on the tones, id say it comes down to what will be useful to you for your work? or at least valuable enough to include in a finished build as an occasional option? Or maybe just to have them as an exploratory project?
The results pretty much confirm what Ive come to think. The core go-to tones were the simplest ones that we have always had. Series made a big difference and the cap-bypassed versions of them, in or out of phase, provided some extra options to keep them clear (or thick/honky when you had both caps on).
The basic parallel tones remain king and although there were a few of the parallel with cap options that made a difference, I didn't hear a compelling reason to have them rather than just the basic parallel tones.
And parallel out of phase has only one use IMO, which is to play the intro to 'Wish you were here', its way too thin and nasty for anything else!
Thanks again!
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Post by ourclarioncall on Feb 28, 2020 15:14:58 GMT -5
Thanks John, it’s encouraging to get the feedback, thanks for watching
Yeah, it’s starting to look a bit van halen haha. Had to tape it all down to stop it rattling and moving. One of my students tonight was very intrigued . Had to chisel out a section of the body. I got a bit of mild steel with 6mm perforated holes in it , perfect for the toggle switches. This is eventually supposed to be going under the pick guard with the tips of the switch poking trough a few mm. like the Gilmour Strat.
I’m quite pleased with the audio, that was just on my iPhone . The fender mustang modelling amp (1x8” speaker) was about a foot from the phone. The clean sound is a fender twin model , completely dry, no reverb or anything else, and the overdrive was a baseman model with a splash of slap back delay. And as you said it was not too heavy as to diminish clarity
I was going to do a third heavier overdrive/distortion sound the other day but didn’t have time.
I have a little black star modelling amp at home and think it has two 3” speakers in it, but the amp at work is an 8” which I suppose is still on the smaller end but big enough or bigerer enough ! To hear more of what is going on with the subtle differences. Wish I had a 1x12, I’d like to hear it through that, maybe thing would be even more easier to analyse.
I’m having a lot of fun with this , so much to explore. I think it’s going to take a bit of playing to figure out what I would actually use in a finished circuit.
Previously my two most used sounds on a HSS type guitar were neck and middle in parallel , and the humbucker.
On the parallel side of things I like neck and middle, but I never liked neck and bridge on a strat (the typical 7 sound mod) and I don’t think I liked the neck middle and bridge in parallel either. Having said that , I think I tried those sounds on a start with noiseless pickups so that could have had something to do with it. My point being was that I always wanted to try a parallel sound that was halfway between neck and middle, and neck and bridge . And that’s how I have it positioned on the last video I posted and have to say I really like it. Often the neck pickup is a bit too dominant so I’ve raised the bridge pickup a bit higher and it balanced things out nicely. The series position is also great with this position too.
I have also realised that I actually like the sound of single coils on their own more than I thought .
I was trying to rig up something so the pickups were sliding but that’s still a work in progress.
Agreed on the parallel out of phase, I guess it’s destined to be a stray dog nobody wants to love !
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Post by perfboardpatcher on Feb 28, 2020 15:28:56 GMT -5
Just what I expected, ourclarioncall, you got the caps soldered in as intended on the schematic right at the first attempt. The second attempt the clip with the clean sounds at 14m40s-ish (coils in series with the caps) sounds like a low mid resonance peak. Of course there is no right or wrong when it comes to cap values, whatever you like the most. Congrats with reaching this milestone for the gnutz forum. You've built it first!
Now you've come this far I would suggest to continue the experiments for the phoop combinations but with resistors in stead of the caps. Something in the order of 10k.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Feb 29, 2020 14:35:38 GMT -5
Just what I expected, ourclarioncall, you got the caps soldered in as intended on the schematic right at the first attempt. The second attempt the clip with the clean sounds at 14m40s-ish (coils in series with the caps) sounds like a low mid resonance peak. Of course there is no right or wrong when it comes to cap values, whatever you like the most. Congrats with reaching this milestone for the gnutz forum. You've built it first! Now you've come this far I would suggest to continue the experiments for the phoop combinations but with resistors in stead of the caps. Something in the order of 10k. Thanks 😊 Yeah, I think you read my mind with the resistors , it’s definitely on the to do list 😄 Hmmm, maybe I did get it “right” first time . I will need to take a look at the caps again . The confusing thing is they have similar numbers on them . The obvious difference is the size but I forget which is which . Oh well, getting to hear some different sounds wasn’t a bad thing I suppose
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Post by ourclarioncall on Feb 29, 2020 14:44:22 GMT -5
Okay had another listen through the newest clean sounds today to figure out what is working and which ones nothing is changing. The ones that are “not working ?” Are at the bottom. Anyone have any idea why I’m not hearing any change ?
SEEM TO BE WORKING FINE
1. Neck
2. Bridge
5. Parallel in phase
6. Series in phase
7. Parallel out of phase
8. Series out of phase
9. Parallel in phase with Neck Hoop (reverses phase and adds in capacitor )*** so really this sound is out of phase ?
10. Series in phase with Neck Hoop (reverses phase and adds in capacitor) *** so really this sounds is out of phase?
12. Series out of phase with Neck Hoop(reverses phase and adds in capacitor) *** so really this sound is IN Phase ?
13. Parallel in phase with bridge Hoop(reverses phase and adds in capacitor) *** so really this is out of phase ?
14. Series in phase with bridge Hoop (reverses phase and adds in capacitor) *** so really this is out of phase ?
16. Series out of phase with bridge Hoop (reverses phase and adds in capacitor) *** so really this is IN phase ?
18. Series in phase with both Hoops switches
20. Series out of phase with both Hoop switches
——— NO CHANGE FOR THESE SOUNDS
3. Neck with Hoop switch (adds in capacitor?)
4. Bridge with Hoop switch (adds in capacitor?)
11. Parallel out of phase with Neck Hoop(reverses phase and adds in capacitor) *** so really this sound is IN phase ?
15. Parallel out of phase with bridge Hoop(reverses phase and adds in capacitor) *** so really this is IN phase ?
17. Parallel in phase with both Hoop switches
19. parallel out of phase with both Hoop Switches
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 1, 2020 11:07:57 GMT -5
The next thing I want to do - if possible - is add in two half volume switches(one for each pickup) , using RT’s module. it makes sense to my brain that this would be best placed first in line after the pickups as if I put it last in line it would act mote like a master volume for combinations of pickups instead of having control over individual pickups having said that , if it would also be possible to add in one of these modules last in Line for the purpose of acting as a master half volume switch then I would be interested in that too. so yeah, 3 additional half volume switches to the circuit . Possible?
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Post by perfboardpatcher on Mar 1, 2020 14:21:57 GMT -5
Okay had another listen through the newest clean sounds today to figure out what is working and which ones nothing is changing. The ones that are “not working ?” Are at the bottom. Anyone have any idea why I’m not hearing any change ? ........... NO CHANGE FOR THESE SOUNDS 3. Neck with Hoop switch (adds in capacitor?) 4. Bridge with Hoop switch (adds in capacitor?) 11. Parallel out of phase with Neck Hoop(reverses phase and adds in capacitor) *** so really this sound is IN phase ? 15. Parallel out of phase with bridge Hoop(reverses phase and adds in capacitor) *** so really this is IN phase ? 17. Parallel in phase with both Hoop switches 19. parallel out of phase with both Hoop Switches Ourclarioncall, I think the main reason is the fact that the 100nF value (are we all on the same page regarding cap placement was correct in attempt 1?) for the cap is a bit too much for the parallel combinations. The cap won't block a lot low end, but only the lowest of the lows! And don't expect any significant sound changes for 3, 4, 17 and 19. This is because the external resistance of amp or fx pedal is too high. Not much you can do about that. So the objective should be to get phoop combos and parallel in phase with an added C combos (sigh!) working by choosing the right value for C. About your remarks at 11 and 15. It's confusing, isn't it? Ideally your circuit would have 2 hoop switches that keep the coils in phase with one another and only one oop switch, which one of the coils doesn't matter much. That way the oop switch would switch between coils in phase and coils oop. Thanks for all your efforts so far.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 1, 2020 17:50:38 GMT -5
Perf
Thanks for the feedback, very helpful 🙂
“ So the objective should be to get phoop combos and parallel in phase with an added C combos (sigh!) working by choosing the right value for C. “
Yeah, I’m keen to explore this in depth. At the moment it was hard work with the caps as in some lugs I had two wires plus the leg of the cap to squeeze in and there wasn’t room . That was with 22awg. The leg on the orange drop caps are pretty thick in comparison to other caps I have. I like the thickness but it’s a bit much at times. I ended just wrapping the leg around the lug and other wires as best I could and dropped some solder on it.
I’m thinking about getting some of those hifi speaker connectors, you know the black and red things you put the wires from your stereo into, and solder these to the lugs on the toggle switches, then I could quickly swap caps in and out stress and solder free. And also would make life easy for trying resistors instead of caps as you suggested. I saw an image online of a guys guitar With those speaker connectors in the cavity of his guitar and a couple of different caps inserted.
“About your remarks at 11 and 15. It's confusing, isn't it? Ideally your circuit would have 2 hoop switches that keep the coils in phase with one another and only one oop switch, which one of the coils doesn't matter much. That way the oop switch would switch between coils in phase and coils oop. Thanks for all your efforts so far.”
Agreed. Yeah, that would be a much better way to do things, I wish I had the knowledge how to do it! It would make much more sense. I thought it might be pretty complicated to rework it because of the way the circuit is currently setup?
My only major preference is that the circuit is strictly toggle switches and preferably only double throw switches. I don’t care how many poles, but prefer only double throws as I don’t like the feel of 3 throws. I like the simple and solid feel of double throws.
I also don’t care how many toggle switches there are, or caps or resistors etc. None of that bothers me, I’m not looking to be super economic just yet, but would like a bit of refinement and making the circuit easier to use and understand and I don’t mind getting rid of things like the extra OOP switch which is not really necessary (I’m just weird and like symmetry 😄)
I’m also wanting to experiment with these half volume switches in the circuit and maybe try different amounts of volume drops such 1/4 or 3/4.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 1, 2020 18:00:38 GMT -5
One other thing I noticed was that for example say I had the pickups on in series and in phase ...
then I switch on the neck hoop, and then turn it off and switch on the bridge hoop, they both seemed to sound the same
I was expecting there to be at least some sort of audible difference because the pickups are in different positions and obviously sound significantly different to begin with before adding any caps to them
What did seem to make a big difference was if I put both hoop switches on at the same time , it got very dark . But also the confusing thing there was that because there are two hoops on , the phase is changing back to IN phase again. So yeah, this circuit is not the best for testing it seems and could use being reworked or redone from scratch
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 1, 2020 18:03:55 GMT -5
Last thought
If I started adding in RT’s volume modules, would this have a big effect on the circuit because of the loading of the half Volume switches (like volume pots) ? (I sound like I know what I’m talking about haha)
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 3, 2020 13:20:28 GMT -5
regarding the caps , I thought I’d take a pic for clarity The little ones on the on the pickup selection switches are CDE . 225P100V 103K 1701 And the big ones On the hoop switches are CDE225P100V 104K 1532
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Post by perfboardpatcher on Mar 3, 2020 14:34:35 GMT -5
One other thing I noticed was that for example say I had the pickups on in series and in phase ... then I switch on the neck hoop, and then turn it off and switch on the bridge hoop, they both seemed to sound the same I was expecting there to be at least some sort of audible difference because the pickups are in different positions and obviously sound significantly different to begin with before adding any caps to them What did seem to make a big difference was if I put both hoop switches on at the same time , it got very dark . But also the confusing thing there was that because there are two hoops on , the phase is changing back to IN phase again. So yeah, this circuit is not the best for testing it seems and could use being reworked or redone from scratch I have been looking at those hoop ("in phase/ hoop") switches in the schematic. It seems to me that it's relatively easy to tweak the switches into "in phase/ in phase with cap" by swapping 2 connections. For both hoop switches you need to: 1. desolder the leg of the cap that's connected to #6 and solder it onto lug #3 2. desolder the wire that goes from lug #3 to lug #4 at lug #3 and solder it onto lug #6 Also one of the oop switches can be removed and the pickup's leads directly soldered onto lugs #3 and #6. The remaining oop switch becomes the "pups in phase with each other/ pups oop with each other" switch
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Post by perfboardpatcher on Mar 3, 2020 14:38:18 GMT -5
regarding the caps , I thought I’d take a pic for clarity The little ones on the on the pickup selection switches are CDE . 225P100V 103K 1701 And the big ones On the hoop switches are CDE225P100V 104K 1532 Yep, the circuit with the caps the wrong way around. 104K (100nF) is too big a value for parallel coils. 103K (10nF) for series coils is not as intended but works. You said you liked the wah sound with series coils out of phase with C(s).
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 4, 2020 9:45:46 GMT -5
Perf
YES !!! Thank you so much for figuring that out for me, that really made my day 🙂😄😄
And so simple too. I would never have figured that out in a million years. It’s so great to have access to you Electronic Masters on here 😁
I have some part coming tomorrow so will get to work on the circuit.
I could lose one of the OOP switches as not needed but was also thinking I could maybe get rid of one of the HOOP switches too and this would bring it down from 6 switches to 4.
The reason for ditching one of the HOOP switches was because I am not really hearing any difference between the cap on the neck or on the bridge, they both sound the same to me. I don’t know why.
Saying that , could I have two different cap values in say the parallel section ? And two different caps in the series section ? So that when I’m in both series or parallel I can choose between two different cap values depending on which HOOP switch i use. So that would be 4 different cap values in the same circuit
Another thing was , in the series section , it seemed like both caps sounded the same , but when on together at the same time the sound got really dark. What’s happening there? Are the cap values being added together or multiplied together to make a bigger value , which has a big impact on the sound?
I also want to add in two half volume switches and maybe a master volume or even a kill switch , but I will maybe wait till I test your suggested changes
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 5, 2020 10:54:32 GMT -5
Getting there. These things are great and work well. So much easier to work with , now I can quickly swap caps in and out
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 7, 2020 18:46:35 GMT -5
A few steps closer. Constant interruptions tonight trying to get this done. Damaged two switches by holding the iron on too long. had to rewire them on the other unused lugs. It’s a bit too late now to crank up the volume and test if everything is working . Will try properly tomorrow
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 8, 2020 20:21:06 GMT -5
Update
it seems to be working one minute then things go a bit strange. One minute the series sound is fine and then it goes dark then it goes back to normal .That’s with NO caps in the circuit . Some combinations when switched make the whole circuit dead and then they work again.
When I try putting caps in , it doesn’t matter if I put it in the series or parallel side , it still changes the series sound.
i think I am going to completely rewire it again with new switches. Having slightly damaged 2 of them I’m wondering if this is causing some of the problems .
since the cap on the neck and bridge pickups don’t really offer much tonal variation, I was thinking of getting rid of one cap from both the series and parallel sections and getting rid of one of the HOOP switches aswell as getting rid of one of the OOP switches. This would make things a lot quicker and tidier to deal with when rewiring 2nd attempt as it’s getting a crazy stress mess in the cavity and I still want to add in 2 more half volume switches after I test this works.
So my question is will this be okay to go ahead and try?
If so I will only need one cap on the parallel side and one on the series side . I’m not sure which caps to get rid of
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 8, 2020 20:38:08 GMT -5
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 8, 2020 20:55:10 GMT -5
EDIT*** the cap leg is in the wrong place This is what it would actually look like. I’m putting the orange wires on the lugs where the caps nor connected and attaching them to the hifi speaker terminal which will hold the caps instead
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Post by perfboardpatcher on Mar 9, 2020 14:07:02 GMT -5
Ourclarioncall,
I'm the kind of guy that needs to see a schematic to understand what is going on. But if you say that parallel and series with an added cap for the neck pickup are working I believe you! And the simplification of the circuit does make sense to me.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 9, 2020 14:13:42 GMT -5
Ourclarioncall, I'm the kind of guy that needs to see a schematic to understand what is going on. But if you say that parallel and series with an added cap for the neck pickup are working I believe you! And the simplification of the circuit does make sense to me. Cool. I need to get into schematics and learn how to draw them I might have an attempt at this tonight. I was a bit gutted I killed two of the switches .... so close to getting it finished and testing it.
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Post by newey on Mar 9, 2020 21:45:09 GMT -5
Or, at least, be able to "speak schematic". I'm at best an apprentice at this stuff myself, but once you learn the language, it's like a whole new vista opens for you.
It is one thing to follow a wiring diagram to get a desired result, and it is another thing to know how, and why, those things were set up in the way that they were. IOW, it's like the difference between painting by the numbers and channeling your inner Picasso.
(OK, that's maybe a bit over the top, but you will have taken my point.)
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 10, 2020 15:41:24 GMT -5
Rewired. Here was a quick test. Didn’t have enough time . Not very satisfied with the results, think il buy a few more caps of different values and do some more testing. Part 3 finished early as run out of time . The fault went away and returned on different settings. Might have been the caps not being gripped properly in the speaker terminal. Think il try crocodile clips instead
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
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tescobedo
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 3
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Post by tescobedo on Mar 12, 2020 0:13:28 GMT -5
With 2 single coils, there are 6 distinctive combinations. Couple more if you want half out of phase. You can do it with a 6 position rotary switch like Bill Lawrence did with the L-6S. Lawrence used a 6 position 3 pole. A 6 position 4 pole can also be used with some alternative diagrams floating around. Add a SPST toggle for full/half out of phase. If you don't want a rotary switch, the six combinations can be had with two toggles: one DPDT ON-OFF-ON, and one DPDT ON-ON-ON. Again, add a SPST toggle for full/half out of phase. From DGB Studios now defunct site: Link to wayback: web.archive.org/web/20190315071447if_/http://www.geocities.jp/dgb_studio/2svari_e.htm#35Hopefully the link works OK. Diagrams 2S34 and 2S35 As shown, they offer half out of phase. A SPST Jumping across C2 allows switchable to full out of phase.
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Post by perfboardpatcher on Mar 12, 2020 15:00:16 GMT -5
I see you are struggling, ourclarioncall! You are evaluating combinations of B (bridge) and N/C (neck with added cap).
Consider the following table:
PIP/C sonically halfway between PIP and B -> Highs: B+N (PIP) Lows: B POP/C " " " POP and B -> Highs: B-N (POP) Lows: B SIP/C " " " SIP and B -> Highs: B Lows: B*N (SIP) SOP/C " " " SOP and B -> Highs: B Lows: B*-N (SOP)
So how would I test? I would pick a cap and then do a sound check to find out if the /C combo sounds like somewhere in the middle. So for PIP/C I would evaluate PIP to PIP/C to B, is there a noticeable and smooth transition of the sound? BTW, PIP/C is a difficult case, I personally don't see much room between PIP and B for a new sound.
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