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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 23, 2019 12:33:17 GMT -5
Hello! I like this Big Fat Ten wiring schematic. Question: on a HH guitar, with this wiring, would I be able to put either pickup out of phase (with push/pull pot) by simply taking the black and green (Seymour Duncan wire colors) and wiring to push/pull first, then to the corresponding spots on the Super/Megaswitch? Would that work, or is there something else to that? P.S. I know of the Big Ugly, but can't see the actual wiring schematic, due to the IP grab done by Photobucket.... sci4us, that would work just fine if the pickups were wired with the series link being the White and Red of the same pickup. But fobits created a truly interesting scheme by thinking out of the box and wiring one North coil from each pickup in series and one South coil from each pickup in series. Because of that, swapping the Black and Green from one of the two pickups would create a clusterf... , um, I mean a snarly mess.
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sci4us
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Post by sci4us on Nov 23, 2019 14:55:12 GMT -5
That's cool. That's why I wanted to ask, so I could save a trial-and-error situation for me. I know the standard scheme for the phase switch itself, but didn't know if it would work, given the particular course of wiring, also because we are using the 4-conductor wires instead of just hot/ground. I like BF10 by itself, just seeing if I can throw some extra sauce in or not (lol), since I have 2 push/pull pots available as I rewire the whole cavity...
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Post by sumgai on Nov 23, 2019 18:38:30 GMT -5
sci,
Yes, you could do an OoP for one pup, but it would take either both of your p/p switches (not a user-friendly thing to do, requiring two physical switches for one function), or you could instead use a 4PDT switch. As a mini-toggle, the latter is common enough to consider, both cost-wise and insofar as hooking it up. But if you're intending to keep your rig in bone-stock appearance, then that mini-toggle probably isn't gonna work for you.
So, not knowing what your axe looks like, maybe you could consider a Fender S1 switch - does the same thing (4PDT), but it hides under the Volume control just like a p/p switch. More moolah than a toggle, but it'll fit into just about any cavity, and will do what you're requesting.
Just a thought.....
HTH
sumgai
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sci4us
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Post by sci4us on Nov 23, 2019 18:53:20 GMT -5
I was wondering that. I could do the S-1 if it meant that the phasing would work, be useful, and not be just to have it. I was thinking that if one used all 4 wires, then it would truly work, but I wasn't sure, so that seems to be what you said. Thanks for your response!
I have a Schecter Diamond Series C-1 Classic, which has 1 Vol and 1 Tone. I was going to try using an Ibanez Dyna-Mix 10 switch to get 2 separate modes of the 5-way switch, but it is back-ordered, and I'd just as well use the Big Fat 10 or Big Ugly, or whichever wiring schematic, to get me something like that. I could drill a hole to add another switch, but I can just use a push/pull on the tone and do the S-1 for the Volume knob or whatever, would just need to get the knurled knob for the S-1, the Tele one I think. I saw the close-up of how to wire the Super-Switch, but I wonder if there's a schematic for the whole thing?
Anyway, thanks again!
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 23, 2019 19:13:56 GMT -5
Yes, it's definitely better to ask rather than guess and find yourself with an undesirable result.
If you have your heart set on out-of-phase, you can do it with this scheme by using a push-pull to exchange the connections ① and ② (or ③ and ④) going to the superswitch but then all combinations other than the #3 position on the superswitch will lose the benefit of hum-canceling when you select out of phase. This scheme doesn't lend itself to the 'coil-swapping' exchange necessary to maintain hum-canceling.
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sci4us
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Post by sci4us on Nov 23, 2019 19:36:49 GMT -5
Thanks. I'm not totally set on using OoP on this guitar, but just seeing what the options are and their feasibility. I'd be totally happy to have the BF10, then I could throw in a "knob mod" or two based on the vol or tone knobs, that doesn't interfere with the 5-way and the coil stuff. Having series/parallel and several coil split options is a substantial part of the reason for the wiring upgrade.
P.S. When I say "knob mods," I mean like a blower switch, capacitor mod, etc. I wonder what ones would be most useful, fitting with the BF10 wiring?
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sci4us
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Post by sci4us on Nov 23, 2019 19:38:53 GMT -5
Also, I forgot to mention that I realize that one of the push/pull knobs would probably go to the switching of the series/parallel scheme of the 5-way, if I'm understanding the original wiring discussion...
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 24, 2019 12:52:51 GMT -5
Thanks. I'm not totally set on using OoP on this guitar, but just seeing what the options are and their feasibility. I'd be totally happy to have the BF10, then I could throw in a "knob mod" or two based on the vol or tone knobs, that doesn't interfere with the 5-way and the coil stuff. Having series/parallel and several coil split options is a substantial part of the reason for the wiring upgrade. P.S. When I say "knob mods," I mean like a blower switch, capacitor mod, etc. I wonder what ones would be most useful, fitting with the BF10 wiring? With two push-pulls, one would be used for the S/P function, the other would have some other purpose. Using it to select the value of the treble-cut cap doesn't seem all that interesting but that's a matter of personal taste. A blower switch might be somewhat useful. Using a push-pull to move the connection of the treble-cut circuit from ④ to the horizontal jumper at the bottom of the S/P switch might be of interest to you. When connected to horizontal jumper, a different size cap could be used or you could just use the pot itself in that connection and be able to fade out completely whatever is selected from the right side of the superswitch. Or you could use the push-pull to change the connections to two throws of the superswitch. This would allow you to have a different selection in that position, allowing for twelve combinations rather than ten.
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sci4us
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Post by sci4us on Nov 24, 2019 14:30:14 GMT -5
Thanks for replying! Those suggestions all sound good. What would be the extra "two" to go from 10 options to 12? 2 other split coil options?
I think I would be in favor of using it for the extra 2 you're talking about, OR, leaving the other push/pull for blower/etc.
Either way, I would need the schematic, as I am only intermediate [at best] with the wiring itself (I mean to say that I understand the overall parts and functions at a more advanced level than I would in being able to accurately come up with the spots to wire it all to do the things I would dream up).
I see the original picture with the close-up of the 4P5T, where the wires go, but is there a version in which it shows the location of each wire, as they go from the 4P5T to the vol/tone circuit, or, perhaps known as the "full-blown" schematic? I would have to have that, or I'd likely miss/overlook some aspect.
Thanks in advance for any help and/or schematics that may be provided. It is greatly appreciated.
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 24, 2019 16:04:14 GMT -5
Thanks for replying! Those suggestions all sound good. What would be the extra "two" to go from 10 options to 12? 2 other split coil options? I think I would be in favor of using it for the extra 2 you're talking about, OR, leaving the other push/pull for blower/etc. It think all the two-coil pairs are well represented so if you wanted to add another combination, maybe a three-coil might be worth doing. For instance you could break the connection between lugs #2 and #3 on the upper left portion of the superswitch. One pole of the P-P would connect to lug #3. The throw (with the push-pull down) associated with that pole would connect to lug #2. The other throw of the P-P associated with that pole would connect to lug #4 of the push-pull (which is ultimately connected to the BridgeRed/NeckGreen series link). But that's only one possibility. You could choose a three-coil combination, omitting any one of the four coils. Just decide which one to omit and we can help you design around that. Either way, I would need the schematic, as I am only intermediate [at best] with the wiring itself (I mean to say that I understand the overall parts and functions at a more advanced level than I would in being able to accurately come up with the spots to wire it all to do the things I would dream up). I see the original picture with the close-up of the 4P5T, where the wires go, but is there a version in which it shows the location of each wire, as they go from the 4P5T to the vol/tone circuit, or, perhaps known as the "full-blown" schematic? I would have to have that, or I'd likely miss/overlook some aspect. I don't think fobits ever did a drawing with the volume and tone control, and output jack tagged on to the end, but that shouldn't be too difficult for you to add. You could make a drawing with his schematic as a starting point, expand the canvas and add them, connecting them at the (+) point in the lower part of the drawing. We can proofread what you add if you post your drawing. Here's a version of his drawing without the photo-bug-it watermark tainting it.
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sci4us
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Post by sci4us on Nov 24, 2019 17:33:05 GMT -5
The 3-coil pairing idea seems interesting as well. I would actually defer to you or fobits, etc., as to which coil YOU might think should be omitted. If I went that route, it might as well be the closest to "objectively best" as can be. I'm sure there's logic to not omitting either p/u , but I would value your opinion in that regard.
Otherwise, I'm happy to just do the Big Fat 10 as is, using the Vol p/p for 5-way S/P actuation, then use the Tone p/p for something else. :-)
Cheers!
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Post by sci4us on Nov 24, 2019 19:50:58 GMT -5
One other thing I would ask is if anyone has any tips for the shared wires that go on the lugs, aka "jumper wires." Just twist together, tin, hang mechanically on lug, then solder? Or are there other methods that are cleaner, better, etc.?
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 25, 2019 10:49:13 GMT -5
The 3-coil pairing idea seems interesting as well. I would actually defer to you or fobits, etc., as to which coil YOU might think should be omitted. If I went that route, it might as well be the closest to "objectively best" as can be. I'm sure there's logic to not omitting either p/u , but I would value your opinion in that regard. Otherwise, I'm happy to just do the Big Fat 10 as is, using the Vol p/p for 5-way S/P actuation, then use the Tone p/p for something else. :-) Cheers! fobits hasn't been around here for over a decade. As for me, I wouldn't be able to predict which coil should be omitted for best results. In the parallel mode, the coil nearest to the Neck in parallel with the two coils of the Bridge pickup locally connected as a series pair, is the money tone. But you can't get there with BF10. The series links are the two north coils and the two south coils. Maybe JohnH will have some thoughts on which coil to omit, idk. One other thing I would ask is if anyone has any tips for the shared wires that go on the lugs, aka "jumper wires." Just twist together, tin, hang mechanically on lug, then solder? Or are there other methods that are cleaner, better, etc.? For jumper wires that go between adjacent lugs on a superswitch I use bare solid wire and thread it through each lug and bend it over on the lugs at the end of the chain.
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sci4us
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Post by sci4us on Nov 25, 2019 12:29:20 GMT -5
Thanks for your suggestions!
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Post by sci4us on Dec 4, 2019 2:41:17 GMT -5
Thanks for replying! Those suggestions all sound good. What would be the extra "two" to go from 10 options to 12? 2 other split coil options? I think I would be in favor of using it for the extra 2 you're talking about, OR, leaving the other push/pull for blower/etc. It think all the two-coil pairs are well represented so if you wanted to add another combination, maybe a three-coil might be worth doing. For instance you could break the connection between lugs #2 and #3 on the upper left portion of the superswitch. One pole of the P-P would connect to lug #3. The throw (with the push-pull down) associated with that pole would connect to lug #2. The other throw of the P-P associated with that pole would connect to lug #4 of the push-pull (which is ultimately connected to the BridgeRed/NeckGreen series link). But that's only one possibility. You could choose a three-coil combination, omitting any one of the four coils. Just decide which one to omit and we can help you design around that. Either way, I would need the schematic, as I am only intermediate [at best] with the wiring itself (I mean to say that I understand the overall parts and functions at a more advanced level than I would in being able to accurately come up with the spots to wire it all to do the things I would dream up). I see the original picture with the close-up of the 4P5T, where the wires go, but is there a version in which it shows the location of each wire, as they go from the 4P5T to the vol/tone circuit, or, perhaps known as the "full-blown" schematic? I would have to have that, or I'd likely miss/overlook some aspect. I don't think fobits ever did a drawing with the volume and tone control, and output jack tagged on to the end, but that shouldn't be too difficult for you to add. You could make a drawing with his schematic as a starting point, expand the canvas and add them, connecting them at the (+) point in the lower part of the drawing. We can proofread what you add if you post your drawing. Here's a version of his drawing without the photo-bug-it watermark tainting it. Hello there! I took the advice and made a drawing. If you'll forgive the hand-drawing, here [see below] is the 5-way super switch and the pickups drawn into it, as well as the Vol and Tone push/pull (Vol is the DPDT doing the S/P mode selection, Tone is an open, as yet, undecided funtion [could be swap 1/2, 3/4 of wafers, or grease bucket, or other tone mod]). I have a few questions:1) I left the "+" from #4 of the super switch "open," as I'm not sure, by the schematic, exactly where it goes. I think it goes to the Volume input, which would seem obvious (but I want to be sure), as well as it went to the DPDT in "Lug 1" (or the "top left" as per the drawing) of the DPDT. 2) Grounds: I would solder the GNDs to the bottom of the pots, but I'm using the "newer style" CTS 500K push/pull pots that have a PCB trace board, and a plastic bottom housing :
www.stewmac.com/Pickups_and_Electronics/Components_and_Parts/Potentiometers/CTS_Push_pull_Pots_DPDT.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=2019-12-gp&gclid=CjwKCAiArJjvBRACEiwA-Wiqq4yuy2jC00gIDsPcf_4LYy8zdI5uA6obxNgWOEzFKG-KrHLqgcnpexoCPhcQAvD_BwE I have seen solder lug washers that have a tang bent outward at AllParts.com, but am wondering what works best for the ground? I could take the ones that should be on the bottom of the Vol Pot, and solder them to a ring terminal (or other suitable metal point) that is 3/8" diameter, like the shafts of the pots, then to the ones that go to the Tone pot, then solder the GND wire of the Output Jack to it as well. Would this work, or is there something else I should do, given the pots I'm using (I'm wary of soldering to the sides, as I doubt there'd be enough room for all the GNDs)? These are the main questions I have, where I would otherwise understand the main diagram, based on the provided picture and my drawing. Thanks for any help or advice in advance! A rookie solder flinger.
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Post by reTrEaD on Dec 6, 2019 9:08:53 GMT -5
I have a few questions:1) I left the "+" from #4 of the super switch "open," as I'm not sure, by the schematic, exactly where it goes. I think it goes to the Volume input, which would seem obvious (but I want to be sure), as well as it went to the DPDT in "Lug 1" (or the "top left" as per the drawing) of the DPDT. 2) Grounds: I would solder the GNDs to the bottom of the pots, but I'm using the "newer style" CTS 500K push/pull pots that have a PCB trace board, and a plastic bottom housing : 1: The →(+) from the original schematic would connect to the CW lug of the volume control and CCW lug of the tone control in your wiring diagram. 2: The pots you linked to do bring a bit of a challenge when it comes to ground ground connections but that's not a deal-breaker. Yes, you could use a washer with a solder lug as a place to join all the ground wires together. What's more confusing is the layout of the connection for the switch terminals. From the pic in the stewmac link, it would appear as if the holes with rings (just beneath the pot's 3 lugs) on the circuit board is where the external wires are meant to connect. The way you've organized those in the box on your drawing doesn't match up with the circuit board on the pot.
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sci4us
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Post by sci4us on Dec 6, 2019 12:02:02 GMT -5
Thanks for looking. I don't read a lot of schematics, so I took it to mean 2 wires, from #4 to Vol input and DPDT Position 1. I'm learning, but I have more questions when I look, even when it seems fairly simple. I used GIMP 2.0 to "photoshop" the original Vol/Tone wiring into the diagram, so it would be easier to read, though it left a few colors of wire in there that would be re-routed using the Super Switch. Would that still mean the wires are in the wrong spots? Also, as to the GNDs, I would need to know which ones were wrong to make any changes. I guess that I just guessed the Vol/Tone would be wired (plug and play) as it was and connected by the #4 wire as the input "From Switch" as would be read on many diagrams from Fralin, Duncan, et al. As to the confusion of the DPDTs: I looked at the DPDT on the fobits schematic and gleaned the positions based on this drawing: It shows #4 wire going to "#1" of DPDT. GND on "#3" of DPDT. #2 wire to Common 1. #3 wire to Common 2. Lastly, a junction of DPDT spots #2 and #4. I converted that to the newer DPDT, using the StewMac "legend" for the labels of the positions on the newer style DPDT. I thought it was correct, but, I'll look it over. Thanks again!
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Post by blademaster2 on Dec 6, 2019 13:23:15 GMT -5
Mr. sumgai, meet Mr. JohnH. He says that they should be swapped around with the .047 on the other one, and you say that it's too big and you wouldn't even bother testing it. This is turning into fun. My Beringer had 500k tone pots with .047 caps, so put that in your pipe and smoke it. Nobody argues with Beringer. As for me, I'm still trying to work up the ambition to test the bass-cut tone control discussed in another thread, now well down the list. I've got the circuit made up, with input and output jacks and little alligator clips to hold the capacitor and resistor for quick changes. Now I just have to tear myself away from the computer long enough to test about 20 different combinations to see if any of them work. That's enough for now. I used 0.047 in all of my homemade guitars, and I put up with them like that but I sometimes feel that they roll off too low and that I would be happier with 0.022 (or maybe 0.033). I mostly keep Tone controls at 10, but that might be why since it gets too muffled too quickly when I turn the Tone down at all.
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sci4us
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Post by sci4us on Dec 7, 2019 18:15:47 GMT -5
It's me again. ReTread has been providing feedback as to the recent thread entries/queries I have made. Here is another hand-drawing that has the BF10 plus the Lindy Fralin Bright Switch, which I want to have on the push/pull DPDT of my Tone knob. **Note: I did not include all the GNDs where they would go to Vol or Tone. Is this going to work with the BF10, as ReTread mentioned, while incorporating the Lindy Fralin version/suggestion of the "Bright Switch," or will it backfire? See Fralin picture for reference: Please let me know, as I've hit a wall until I know for sure, as I don't want to try to solder then have to go back and do it over. Thanks!
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Post by sumgai on Dec 7, 2019 19:52:22 GMT -5
frets,
The Fralin "Bright" switch will work without any ill effects. However, I must say that this is nothing more than disconnecting the Tone control sub-circuit from the rest of the circuitry. In and of itself, this means that the pot's impedance value, plus the small impedance gleaned from the capacitor when it's all hooked up, both of those numbers don't subtract much from the overall tone, or in this case, the treble or higher frequencies.
I say: try it, and see what happens. It might make you smile, or not - that'll be up to you.
HTH
sumgai
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sci4us
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Post by sci4us on Dec 7, 2019 20:01:36 GMT -5
Hello, sumgai.
This is an "explanation," "excerpt," or whatever it ought to be called, of the "bright switch," from the Lindy Fralin website:
"WHAT IT DOES:
On the technical end, the Bright Switch removes the added Load from your Volume Pot and Tone Pot. We define “load” as anything that is consuming electricity. Your Volume Pot, even on 10, is sucking up some of your signal. By removing the load, the pot does not consume your signal anymore. It’s like connecting your pickups direct to your output jack, and bypassing the electronics. When pushed down, your guitar is working as normal. When you pull up, you remove the Ground off of your volume pot and tone pot. This is the same as sending your guitar’s signal straight to the output jack.
Tonally speaking, when you pull up, your guitar’s tone will get brighter, fuller, more aggressive, and beefier. It’s like a boost pedal wired in to your guitar. You’ll get more definition, pick attack, and more growl. I’m sold. How do I do this Mod?
Here’s how you wire this mod up. Please note that the pot on the left is volume pot, and the Push Pull pot takes the place of your tone pot. "
Is that explanation an exaggeration [especially the underlined part] to your estimation? I took it to mean that there was a more meaningful change having the pickups be "direct output," but, perhaps not. I'm not really sure there's any push/pull mods worth adding to this scheme then, as it's nearly the only one that is doable. Phase switching can't be done without ruining it, and it is a really nice scheme. Anyway, thanks for your input.
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Post by frets on Dec 8, 2019 0:12:18 GMT -5
Sci4us If you want more oomph to your chops, consider a blower switch instead.
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sci4us
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Post by sci4us on Dec 8, 2019 0:57:58 GMT -5
That's actually the one I want. Lol. I switched the terms "bright switch" and "blower." It'd be cool to have blower for the whole 5-way, but it seems like that can't happen without a bunch of switches...??
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Post by sumgai on Dec 8, 2019 11:50:25 GMT -5
sci, Like most marketing, that underlined part is what ChrisK called "GelderFarb", or I like to put it as "MarketingSpeak". That's essentially a highly inflated opinion of whatever it is someone is selling, often one that can't be backed up by rigorous testing. The Vol pot is not taken out of the circuit, but it's effect is reduced comewhat. A blower switch will indeed remove everything from the signal path, thus slightly increasing the apparent volume, and making it a tiny bit brighter by comparison. Here's the Blower switch diagram, thanks to our member wolf : Any questions? sumgai
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sci4us
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Post by sci4us on Dec 8, 2019 13:53:06 GMT -5
Got it. I recognize that site, thanks for pointing that one out.
I've been trying to decide what my Tone knob will be, since I have everything disconnected. I may do some kind of alternating tone knob where one position of DPDT is regular treble cut and other is a bass cut.
Thanks again, sumgai!
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