stonewall
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Post by stonewall on Jan 29, 2020 0:32:27 GMT -5
Hello all, I’m Stonewall. New here; not new to the industry. I’m doing a rewire on a 1968 ES-345 (as well as new pickups, stainless steel frets, and a bone nut) and the customer doesn’t want the varitone reinstalled. Instead he would prefer a rotary switch that would do some switching with the humbucker coils; this is where I’m asking for help. This isn’t something I’ve done before and I’d have no problem with it if the rotary switch was also the pickup selector. What I have is a 5 position, 4 pole rotary switch. If anyone has a wiring diagram, that would be greatly appreciated. I should point out that I’m getting paid for this job but the rotary switch is essentially an afterthought; the stainless steel refret, bone nut, and custom pickups are main job. And I’m not coming here completely empty-handed... I posted to a tread in the pickups subsection (my area of expertise) regarding eddy currents. But if people don’t want to help me because I’m getting paid for this job, I understand. For those who wouldn’t mind helping me, here’s the specifics:
Two humbuckers - four conductor wire Switchcraft toggle switch pickup selector Independent volumes Independent tones Mono output jack 4 pole, 5 position rotary switch - coil splitting, series/parallel, etc.
If you think I need to get a different rotary switch, I can. But keep in mind that it has to fit in an ES-345. This one is barely going to fit as it is. Also, switching from north coils to south coils (inner coils to outer coils) is also fine. I know some people say it’s pointless because the two coils in a humbucker sound nearly identical... these two humbuckers use four different wire gauges so each coil has a unique tone.
Thank you all in advance, Stonewall
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 6:33:20 GMT -5
well with a 4P5T switch .. you get to pick what you want Humbucker we will call NORTH and SOUTH poles N, n(North Phased), S, s(South Phased), N+S, N+s(South Phased), n(North Phased)+S, n(North Phased)+s(South Phased) NxS, Nxs(South Phased), n(North Phased)xS, n(North Phased)xs(South Phased) First thing the Poles are hooked up to each ends of the Pickup but you gotta keep tabs on what COLOUR Cable So Basic North, South and NxS, so what to do with the last two If the Humbucker is turned on by this 4P5T then you would need a OFF part North South North + South North x South OFF
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Post by reTrEaD on Jan 29, 2020 9:50:18 GMT -5
Hello all, I’m Stonewall. Hello stonewall and to Guitarnuts2! What I have is a 5 position, 4 pole rotary switch. If anyone has a wiring diagram, that would be greatly appreciated. We don't have one off-the-shelf but we can work with you to create one. There are several different ways you could slice this. What immediately comes to mind is using two poles of the rotary to configure the local wiring of each HB four poles total). This then goes to the volumes and tones and finally to the toggle in the standard Gibson scheme for your Global selection (Neck | Both | Bridge). Your four choices on the rotary switch can be in any order you like. I would suggest including the following choices. - Both HBs with local series wiring (this would be the 'normal' on most guitars).
- Both HBs with local parallel wiring.
- North coil of Bridge, South coil of Neck (this will be hum-canceling when both pickups are selected.)
- South coil of Bridge, North coil of Neck (this will be hum-canceling when both pickups are selected.
- Bridge HB in series, Neck pickup single (whichever coil is closest to the fingerboard)
If it's possible to orient the pickups such that you have a NSNS or SNSN arrangement of the coils, positions 3 and 4 will result in one of them being 'inners', the other being 'outers'. I think that would be a more interesting pair of choices. After we come up with an overall plan, we would need the make and model of the pickups so we'll know what colors to use. Also, some pics or a link to a site where the rotary switch is shown. If the rotary already has a ground lug for the frame of the switch, so much the better. If not, you'll need to add one.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 12:31:13 GMT -5
I should of read the question. I keep trying to cut out all the bits I don't need, back story etc
Dual Humbucker 4PT5 switch And some I guess 2P2T on/on/on toggle
Tone and volume a standard thing As is
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Post by newey on Jan 29, 2020 12:51:53 GMT -5
This is never a problem around here so long as the member is up front about the fact that it's for business. And you were up front and direct about it, so no issue there. You'll get all the help we can give.
The only time we have an issue with someone using ideas generated here for profit is when it is done without so stating, in advance. Several years ago, we had a long thread by someone who was designing a product and did not disclose that until after several people had supplied design work, leaving some members feeling a bit used.
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stonewall
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Post by stonewall on Jan 29, 2020 22:51:48 GMT -5
Thank you all for replying to my thread. I only posted my question on this forum because I like the acceptance that this community has here. I am not familiar with forums in general and so I don’t know how to quote from responses or include links or include pictures into my posts so I’m going to do my best; please bear with me.
I am looking to be able to control both humbuckers with the single rotary switch. The switch is from WD Music; I believe it’s the only switch they offer and I believe it’s made by Alpha. It’s two tiers with two sets of ‘one pole & five lugs’ (one per position) per tier: four poles total, twenty position lugs (throws??).
The pickups are mine. I don’t know what the rules are here about promoting your own products. You can find me by searching my name plus “pickups”. The pickups will be oriented in the guitar: NS SN... because I always think about the next person to work on the guitar and consider all modifications to be impermanent (if the pickups are installed in another guitar using traditional wiring, they should be in phase with each other). Does that make sense?? (I have always used double punctuation; I’m not being aggressive)
Color codes are: Screw coil - north - green - start - white - finish Slug coil - south - black - start - red - finish
But I’m familiar with wiring and very familiar with pickups so if you say “north, south, start, and finish”, I can translate it to my codes.
I think I answered all the questions. I appreciate all the help. I will always be honest with all of you. If anyone has any pickup questions, feel free to contact me. I like to take the time to explain how different aspects of pickup construction effect the tone because it makes it easier for my customers to get the right tone for their ears. And I make a lot of pickups that are custom to the customer’s specific instead of them just picking from my menu. Definitely let me know if you need anything or have any questions.
Thanks, Scott “Stonewall” Miller
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stonewall
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Post by stonewall on Jan 29, 2020 23:01:23 GMT -5
Adding to my last post:
No ground lug on connection to the frame on the rotary switch.
Whichever way to wire the rotary switch is easiest. I prefer splitting over parallel wiring, if that matters. And like I mentioned in my first post, each humbucker is using two different wire gauges so each of the four coils has its own unique voice.
Thank you again, Scott “Stonewall” Miller
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Post by newey on Jan 29, 2020 23:30:48 GMT -5
From your first post, I assume a std Gibby 3-way switch will provide N /N + B/ B, and the rotary will then provide various coil cut settings?
One question sure to arise here is whether the rotary works in conjunction with the 3-way, or overrides it. IOW, one of the 5 positions onthe rotary might be a "bypass to the 3-way" setting, meaning that the other 4 positions on the rotary would work exclusive of the 3-way setting. Or, perhaps in conjunction- with the 3-way set to neck only, say, then turning the rotary to select a single bridge coil would have no effect, unless you then flipped the 3-way to the middle or bridge positions.
The fact that rotaries are a bit fiddle-ey to manipulate makes this sort of scheme more suited to "set it and forget it" use rather than mid-song "switch on the fly" use. In a studio, not a big deal, but easier to flick a switch in a live setting.
Feel free to modify your signature line so as to include a link to your webpage or social media accounts. Just be clear that it's your site. So long as it's guitar or music related, no problem. (If you want to use it to promote some other unrelated venture, then we'd have to have a talk . . .)
BTW, as far as posting links, pix, and so forth, there are instructions for image posting in the Reference section. To quote some text in a post, when you hit "reply" and get the reply window, there are a series of buttons along the top. There is a yellow one labeled "quote". Drag your mouse to highlight the text you want to quote, then click on the yellow quote button. This will then add BBC "quote tags" at each end of the text you highlighted.
To insert a link, same thing, but use the button to the left with a globe on it. You can hover your cursor over each of the other buttons to learn the functions of each.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jan 30, 2020 11:24:44 GMT -5
I really like reTrEaD’s suggestion myself. Basically both pickups do the same thing in 4 positions and the fifth is some predetermined combination. BUT you could also just pick 5 dual pickup combinations that you want to emulate from other guitars or that you think are useful or unique. Honestly, I might go that way for the sake of actual usefulness. It gives you more variety in “middle positions” and quicker switching when you want to go like from an SC neck to an HB bridge in the middle of a song. Example: 1. Both singles (RWRP pair) 2. Both singles (other pair) 3. NHB, BSC 4. NSC, BHB 5. Both HB Edit - Ultimately I see it wired with each set of two poles as some modified version of the Baja wiring. I was going to link to sumgai’s version which fixes the “hanging from hot” issue, but the pic isn’t coming through for me. This is basic Baja. It doesn’t take too much to change the order of the options or add a fifth.
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Post by reTrEaD on Jan 30, 2020 14:22:58 GMT -5
I am looking to be able to control both humbuckers with the single rotary switch. The switch is from WD Music; I believe it’s the only switch they offer and I believe it’s made by Alpha. It’s two tiers with two sets of ‘one pole & five lugs’ (one per position) per tier: four poles total, twenty position lugs (throws??). Yes, that seemed clear to me in your OP. The five local configurations I originally posted would then go to their respective volume and tone controls and ultimately to the 3-way Gibson toggle. The rotary switch you'll be using appears to be this one: www.wdmusic.com/wd-music-products-4-pole-rotary-switch-5-position-details.htmlSince that has no ground lugs, you'll need to add some. You can probably procure some from a local hardware, or perhaps you'll need to order some. They're very inexpensive. Determine the screw size of the two screws that attach wafers and mechanism then buy few of something like this, in the appropriate size: www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/keystone-electronics/7329/36-7329-ND/316698You would then apply some acetone or other solvent to the red glyptol or threadlock which is on the nuts on the back of the switch to loosen it. Then remove one of the nuts and place one of the solder lugs on the end of the screw and re-attach the nut. I suggest doing this to both, but do them one at a time so the switch doesn't disassemble while you're working on it. I expect the screws will be long enough to accommodate the added thickness of the solder lugs. If not, you'll need to buy longer screws. The pickups are mine. I don’t know what the rules are here about promoting your own products. You can find me by searching my name plus “pickups”. The pickups will be oriented in the guitar: NS SN... because I always think about the next person to work on the guitar and consider all modifications to be impermanent (if the pickups are installed in another guitar using traditional wiring, they should be in phase with each other). Does that make sense?? (I have always used double punctuation; I’m not being aggressive) Color codes are: Screw coil - north - green - start - white - finish Slug coil - south - black - start - red - finish But I’m familiar with wiring and very familiar with pickups so if you say “north, south, start, and finish”, I can translate it to my codes. The orientation of the pickups on the guitar won't change the phase or the way we choose to wire them. Unless your customer has an aversion to having the pickups rotated such that both screw coils are closest bridge or both screw coils are closest to the neck, we can allow for a selection of inners and a selection of outers, while retaining hum-canceling when two split HBs are selected in the 'both' position of the toggle. Please contact your customer and ask if he would find either of these to be acceptable and if so, which he would prefer: Regarding your color codes, I think it would be best if you describe your normal series connected HBs, which color goes to ground, which color goes to hot, and which two colors are joined together as the series link. Then we can stay true to that.
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Post by JohnH on Jan 30, 2020 15:35:13 GMT -5
I've also used those twin-deck rotary switches to control pickups. It's a good solid reliable switch, but as noted above, it's not that easy to move it quickly, since they are quite stiff. So I'd agree with the notion of, in stead of settings of equal pairs, neck and bridge the same, set up sets that are most usefully used together for quick switching by a standard toggle.
If it was mine, I'd choose;
Both humbuckers Bhb and Nsc Bsc and Bsc
Bsc, bridge single would be slug coil placed nearest to neck, with tbe Nsc being opposite magnetic polarity for in-phase hum-cancelling.
Two options left, and only two poles used so far....
Interesting further options:
Both parallel-wired humbuckers, or,
Cross-over wiring, swap one coil each between pickups to make two series-wired humbuckers with one coil from each pickup or,
two humbuckers, one reverse phase
The three options above are probably such that only one is possible
So still one option left...
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Post by reTrEaD on Jan 30, 2020 16:35:28 GMT -5
Cross-over wiring, swap one coil each between pickups to make two series-wired humbuckers with one coil from each pickup That would be a very interesting inclusion. Although I would expect this to sound much the same as two series-wired HBs when both pickups are selected, it would create two unique tones when only one is selected. For instance, if the pickup were oriented slug/screw | slug/screw ... The toggle would select basically a wide-spaced series-connected HB consisting of the screw coil of the neck and slug coil of the bridge in one of it's end positions. The other end position would select an extra-wide-spaced series-connected HB consisting of the slug coil of the neck and screw coil of the bridge. I like it!
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Post by JohnH on Jan 30, 2020 20:00:47 GMT -5
That cross-over wiring does indeed make interesting tones. I have some of it on three of my guitars, through different wiring schemes.
It's also enhanced by having one coil bypassed by pot, to fade up from single-coil to full series. Adding a bridge coil in this way, gradually to a neck single is like having a mid-boost control.
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stonewall
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Post by stonewall on Feb 4, 2020 3:46:16 GMT -5
Sorry I disappeared for a few days; the end of the week and the weekend is the busiest time in my shop.
John, your wiring idea sounds great. I use a similar wiring for two humbuckers and a five way switch that splits both and puts those coils in-series in the middle position... one of my favorites. If you guys don’t have that one, I’ll fire up my desktop computer and figure out how to attach a picture in a post. I’m doing everything from my iPhone right now.
Trying to remember questions since I can’t see the previous posts while I post (using an iPhone)... I have grounding lugs I can use. My color codes for my pickups are: BLACK - HOT RED & WHITE - LINK GREEN - GROUND
Thanks, Scott “Stonewall” Miller
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