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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 23, 2020 19:42:17 GMT -5
After a quick google I see there are different ways to have a kill switch
One is to send the hot signal to ground
The other I think is to open the circuit
Pros and Cons if any?
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Post by sumgai on Mar 23, 2020 20:52:01 GMT -5
Easy. The open circuit not only permits hum, but it encourages it!
Grounding the 'hot' lead is the preferred method, that'll kill all chance of noise generated within the guitar right along with the signal.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 23, 2020 20:57:57 GMT -5
Easy. The open circuit not only permits hum, but it encourages it! Grounding the 'hot' lead is the preferred method, that'll kill all chance of noise right along with the signal. HTH sumgai Cool. So Would the open circuit version be opening the hot wire while the ground is still connected ? If so , what if both the hot and ground wires were opened ? |
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Post by sumgai on Mar 23, 2020 21:44:34 GMT -5
Cool. So Would the open circuit version be opening the hot wire while the ground is still connected ? Yes. Same thing as before, some noise is still audible. This can be easily demonstrated by "working backwards". Take a bone-stock guitar cable, and plug it into your live amp. Hold the unplugged end of it out in the air. (If the sleeve is metal, hold the cable by the jacket - you don't want to touch anything metal for this test.) Hear anything? You probably should, even if it's not very much. The test of that is to short the tip to the sleeve, and it should get quieter, almost dead silent.* (Use a piece of wire, bent to make the two connections.) Plugging that cable into the axe with both ground and hot leads switched out of the circuit means only that you've added the output jack to the end of the hot lead (the tip) - the noise is still present, though probably not much louder than just the cable by itself. HTH sumgai * In point of fact, nearly every amplifier ever made generates its own hum, and while the volume levels vary, the noise is usually audible. Why don't you hear it? Because the input jack has a switching mechanism, operated by the action of plugging in the cable. No plug inserted - hot lead is grounded. Plug inserted, short-to-ground is removed, allowing any signal present on the cable's tip to get into the amp. And for the purpose of this epistle, 'any signal' should be thought of as including 'any noise'. |
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 25, 2020 4:21:10 GMT -5
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Post by newey on Mar 25, 2020 7:16:54 GMT -5
All three are electrically equivalent. They all short the two leads together, as sg suggested should be done.
#1 and #2 use a cheaper SPDT switch. These can also be had with a momentary-actuation push button rather than a toggle switch, if one perfers a "kill button" to a toggle.
#3 requires a DPDT switch which are very common, a bit more expensive than a SP switch but many folks may already have a DPDT lying around. Not sure if one can get a DPDT push button. They probably exist but I've never looked.
#3 also is unduly complicated, one could just use 1/2 of the DPDT switch and wire it like #1 or #2. #3 requires more wire, more connections, which equals more possible points of failure.
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Post by sumgai on Mar 25, 2020 11:43:58 GMT -5
As newey said, go for #1, it's the "best practice" method for the job. Whoever designed the other two should be put on notice that overly complicating things is reserved for The Beta Particle Bombarder!  |
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 25, 2020 11:55:53 GMT -5
1. - This shunts the hot to ground. This is the correct way to connect a kill switch. Note: the signal is killed when the toggle is in the down position. 2. - This disconnects the hot of the circuit from the tip of the output jack, then connects the hot of the circuit to ground while leaving the tip of the output jack disconnected. This is awful. Don't do this. Note: the signal is killed when the toggle is in the up position. 3. This is a bit silly but it will work fairly well. It shunts the signal to ground just like the single-pole version in (1) but does breaks the connection between the hot of the circuit and the tip of the output jack. Then it connects both of them to ground. If the switch is make-before-break it will function exactly like (1). If the switch is break-before-make, the tip of the output jack will be disconnected for a brief moment, so their will be a bit of hum during the transition. Note: the signal is killed when the toggle is in the up position. |
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 25, 2020 11:59:02 GMT -5
Ah, now I get it. I misunderstood. I thought 1 was the worst and 3 was the best. 😊
Is there such as thing as it being shorted from the guitar side .... and also being shorted from the amps side?
on no.3 there is a black jumper from lug 3 to lug 6, is that really needed? As the hot will get to ground without it
I was thinking that they had put the black jumper there so the hot and the ground from the amp were touching or making a circuit , just like when you said to hold up a guitar cable them with a bit of wire touch the sleeve and the tip
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 25, 2020 12:09:47 GMT -5
newey thanks for the feedback . I was having some cognitive dissonance reading your reply but now I get it 🙃 I was checking out your DPDT On-On-On Cap and resistor modules in the modules section ... although I can’t see the pics on my phone . Somebody told me a way to see the pics but think that was on a pc reTrEaD thats just the detail I was looking for . You articulated it for me . Yeah, the 2nd one I noticed the tip was disconnected and the 3rd one i “see more” i noticed both the hot and the tip went to ground. In my head I had thought that this was the clever deluxe model wiring and was killing all possible noise from guitar and amp. (It came from a famous pickup makers diagram)
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Post by sumgai on Mar 25, 2020 16:00:31 GMT -5
occ, ..... In my head I had thought that this was the clever deluxe model wiring and was killing all possible noise from guitar and amp. (It came from a famous pickup makers diagram) Some people are too clever for their own good. They're more than willing to "forget" that a goodly majority of modders operate within budget constraints. But as it happens, even famous pickup makers might have "other reasons" to espouse such a diagram. Tell me, do these people also happen to sell DPDT switches on their website, perhaps?  Look at your first diagram again - the outgoing hot lead to the amp (the jack's tip) is being grounded, yes? Then does it not stand to reason that if that same hot lead is not being disconnected from the rest of the guitar's circuitry, then is the circuitry remainder also being grounded? And wasn't that the exact intent of the design shown in your #3, the one from a "famous" pickup maker? (Which was stated by previous responders, that #1 and #3 are the same thing.) I swear, some people's kids.  tl;dr Hopefully this won't cause you any offense, but I'd like to remind you to always trace every possible path in a circuit, even one so simple as this. Doing so will tell you oodles of information that may not be obvious at first glance. HTH sumgai |
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 25, 2020 18:03:09 GMT -5
and the 3rd one i “see more” *giggle* icwutudidthar. Yeah, SD has more than a few rather lame diagrams infecting in their collection. I tend to think they have someone who redraws diagrams which are submitted by amateurs. I've seen some that are far worse than this. |
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 25, 2020 18:30:50 GMT -5
and the 3rd one i “see more” *giggle* icwutudidthar. Yeah, SD has more than a few rather lame diagrams infecting in their collection. I tend to think they have someone who redraws diagrams which are submitted by amateurs. I've seen some that are far worse than this. Ten out of Ten 😁 I’m impressed, I thought it was maybe too vague but you spotted it on the radar I noticed the big British music sales company Anderson’s used the same SD diagram I took number 3. From for their own wiring tutorials In my ignorance I would have just put my faith in that to be the best most accurate option |
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 25, 2020 18:42:35 GMT -5
sumgaisome of the British companies charge some suprisingly high prices for switches. Almost £10 for a spdt . I appreciate there are high quality switches out there as I’ve bought a few for research purposes but I suspect they may just be cheaper rebranded ones. Could be wrong tho. Sumgai said : “.....always trace every possible path in a circuit, even one so simple as this.” good exhortation worthy of repetition ☺️
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Post by newey on Mar 25, 2020 19:54:08 GMT -5
OCC said:
Newey replied (in a very poor Heinrich Himmler impression):
"Vee haff vaaays . . . "
(IOW, if you have a serious wish list, PM sumgai or me)
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Post by sumgai on Mar 25, 2020 20:56:44 GMT -5
occ,
Yeah, we see that a lot, which is kind of surprising. Shipping costs from SE Asia should be about the same from there to most countries in the world, so that's not likely to be the problem. I'm putting it down to pure greed personified, that's my take on the state of affairs.
Right about now is when I need to make a meme, something on the order of "Hitler Finds Out That British Companies Are Charging £10 For A $1.00 (USD) Switch".
What newey said, that goes for me too.
sumgai
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 26, 2020 0:46:20 GMT -5
I noticed the big British music sales company Anderson’s used the same SD diagram I took number 3. Premier Guitar also used that image in one of their articles: www.premierguitar.com/articles/The_In_famous_Stratocaster_Kill_Switch It was written by Dirk Wacker. I tend to think he knows very little when it comes to electronics and is more of a parrot. |
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Post by pablogilberto on May 13, 2020 8:48:05 GMT -5
Hello!
Can you share with me where can I get a decent pushbutton momentary switch SPST that will perfectly work as a kill switch?
I have tried generic and low cost swithches but I don't get the feel and response (mechanically) that I am looking for.
I want a good built quality and response.
Will appreciate if you can share the exact link from Mouser or other sites?
Thank you!
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Post by pablogilberto on May 13, 2020 9:02:45 GMT -5
Can I just use a SPST momentary push button for this? What's the disadvantage? |
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Post by thetragichero on May 13, 2020 9:46:25 GMT -5
yes i use spst switches for my kill switches. you don't get redundancy but besides that i have been on a simplicity kick so getting it done with the minimal of connections i like
the best switches if you have the real estate to fit it are those arcade push button switches as they were designed to be abused
I'm usually installing in old volume pot holes so i found some way less rugged but still haven't broke pushbutton switches from eBay
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Post by reTrEaD on May 13, 2020 9:49:28 GMT -5
Hello! Can you share with me where can I get a decent pushbutton momentary switch SPST that will perfectly work as a kill switch? I have tried generic and low cost swithches but I don't get the feel and response (mechanically) that I am looking for. I want a good built quality and response. Will appreciate if you can share the exact link from Mouser or other sites? Thank you! I can't say from personal experience, but many killswitch users like arcade buttons similar to these: www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Adafruit/3432?qs=%2Fha2pyFadugpMJ2yPXzzN%252Bhp4BrpuFIrUfwa54xewn0%3D www.adafruit.com/product/3432But they would take up a LOT of real estate on your pickguard and in your control cavity. |
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Post by ashcatlt on May 13, 2020 11:48:01 GMT -5
Premier Guitar also used that image in one of their articles: Those people are so wrong so often that I just quit reading their wiring articles. I know where to go (well, come) if I want actually interesting wiring ideas.  This may not be the ideal solution for many people, but I have a couple of guitars which had fender-style blade switches in them where I desired them in a way that didn’t really use it, so I use the blade for a kill switch. Actually, I use it as a kill/tone kill switch so that a 3-way tele switch goes On - Off - “tone at 0”. A 5-way is wired the same way, but has three Off positions. It’s not great for super fast stutter stuff (5 way is better than 3 for this, but still), but it’s a nice big lever usually with pretty smooth action. |
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Post by frets on May 13, 2020 18:25:22 GMT -5
I have used brushed aluminum momentary switches on several builds. They are about 3/4” in diameter and depth;but, I’ve never had trouble getting them to fit. They look classier than just a plastic button.  |
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Post by ourclarioncall on May 13, 2020 18:54:36 GMT -5
I forgot to mention this previously
But a volume pot is kinda like a kill switch as it sends the signal to ground right ?
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Post by pablogilberto on May 13, 2020 19:27:32 GMT -5
I have used brushed aluminum momentary switches on several builds. They are about 3/4” in diameter and depth;but, I’ve never had trouble getting them to fit. They look classier than just a plastic button. Can you send link where can I buy this? |
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Post by pablogilberto on May 13, 2020 19:27:55 GMT -5
Hello! Can you share with me where can I get a decent pushbutton momentary switch SPST that will perfectly work as a kill switch? I have tried generic and low cost swithches but I don't get the feel and response (mechanically) that I am looking for. I want a good built quality and response. Will appreciate if you can share the exact link from Mouser or other sites? Thank you! I can't say from personal experience, but many killswitch users like arcade buttons similar to these: www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Adafruit/3432?qs=%2Fha2pyFadugpMJ2yPXzzN%252Bhp4BrpuFIrUfwa54xewn0%3Dwww.adafruit.com/product/3432But they would take up a LOT of real estate on your pickguard and in your control cavity. Will check this. Thanks a lot! |
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Post by frets on May 13, 2020 20:39:40 GMT -5
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Post by pablogilberto on May 14, 2020 7:57:01 GMT -5
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Post by ashcatlt on May 14, 2020 12:31:37 GMT -5
I forgot to mention this previously But a volume pot is kinda like a kill switch as it sends the signal to ground right ? When it’s all the way down. Usually. But it actually only shorts one end. That is, it can short the output jack, leaving the pickups “hanging” which doesn’t matter at all and is the way most guitars are wired. But shorting the jack kills the whole guitar, and what if you’ve got two Vs but only wanted to turn one of them all the way down while still playing through the other? Many of us would say “that’s what the pickup selector switch is for”, but some guitars try to get around this by wiring the Vs “backwards” such that turning it down shorts the pickup, but leaves the jack “hanging” so that the other pickup can drag it around the way it should. If you turn both all the way down, that jack is mostly just waving in the wind. |
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Post by reTrEaD on May 14, 2020 15:30:47 GMT -5
Pablo, Here are three different kind of aluminum momentary switches. The first link to PartsExpress is the cheapest. I gave you the other two links because they are different variations. I'm not a killswitch user but if I were, I'd be most interested in the third link. It mounts in a somewhat reasonably sized hole (12mm or 1/2 inch). But in any case, providing a few different sources was a nice touch on your part. |
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