Has anyone tried this wiring for an HSS Strat

[sdb55]

1986 Charvel Strat with HSS config and a Switchcraft LP type 3 way toggle switch. I'd be happy to give up a tone knob if this works and I can have separate volumes for the pickups. Is there a better way to get the LP to select the 3 pickups separately? A blade switch is not an option. 

[thetragichero]

hello and welcome to the forum!
were you intending to post a picture or no?

a normal lp switch only selects between two things. could you live with neck and bridge on a switch plus a blend pot to mix in the middle pickup?

[sdb55]

Thanks!
I wasn't able to upload my image for some reason. The "upload image" icon just spins in circles? The jpeg file is only 76kb, so I'm not sure what happened. I thought it was because I'm a new member. The 'upload file' button does nothing for me either.

The diagram is a 3 pot strat, where you lose the tone pot and instead have 3 independent volumes (1 for each pickup) I'll try to re-upload. 

[sumgai]

Jun 6, 2020 12:26:51 GMT -5 sdb55 said:

1986 Charvel Strat with HSS config and a Switchcraft LP type 3 way toggle switch. I'd be happy to give up a tone knob if this works and I can have separate volumes for the pickups. 

Hmmmm,


OK, so first things first:  to the NutzHouse!

Next, doing a separate volume for each pickup is a no-brainer, but there is one issue that you might wish to check out.  Any time you add more controls (pots), you add "load" to the signal path.  It's bad enough with two Volume pots (and/or two Tone pots), but with a third control in the path, one's tone starts suffering, specifically the highs are quite a bit more muted, making the rig sound what we call "muddy".  The degree of how much that happens can be ameliorated, to be sure, but it's still a consideration that one should not just ignore.

Is there a better way to get the LP to select the 3 pickups separately? A blade switch is not an option.

Sorry to have to be the one to break the news to you, but there's no way a standard Switchcraft LP type 3 way toggle will ever let you select each of the 3 pickups separately. What you may be referring to are the various LP models with 3 pups, and what looks like the standard switch in the upper horn.  In fact, not only is that a highly non-standard switch, but the selections available are such that the middle switch position gives the Mid and Bridge pups together (in parallel), not the Middle by itself.  We'll have to look elsewhere to arrive at your intended goal of each pup available for selection by itself.

A blade switch is not an option.

I am sorely tempted to tell you that the blade switch not only is an option, but it's de rigueur to use one if you wish to be able to select each pup by itself. However, I won't say that, because it might offend your sensibilities, and we try not to do that here.   What is possible, electrically speaking, is using a separate switch to turn on/off the Middle pickup.  (That's the usual suspect, but really, you can choose any of the 3 to be controlled by that extra switch.)  This additional switch could be a toggle, a rotary, a push-pull, or some other form factor, it's up to you.  But as I did above, I have to caution you that this adds a layer of complexity in handling the switches in order make a selection - fiddling/diddling with two switches instead of one tends to lead to the occasional mistake.  The frequency of those mistakes tends to rise in direct proportion to the size of the audience.

And if you really want to go the 3 Volume controls route, then that itself is a method of selecting pickups, with the added bonus of being able to blend them in any amount you might desire. Worth considering, right along side of the loading I mentioned above.  Oh, and of course, there's the diddle-factor in play, but I also tend to discount this, as the movement is not "instant", but instead requires a bit of thought (and perhaps some aural feedback), with tends to slow one down.  Far fewer mistakes, for sure.


I presume you would like a diagram of some kind, but it would be nice if we could first see your current setup.  It's easier to modify what you already understand, rather than starting over from scratch.

HTH





sumgai

[sdb55]

Thanks!

I still can't upload a pic, but here's a link to the same photo.

www.irongear.co.uk/3_x_humbuckers__3_vol__1_tone_3-way_toggle_v02_igwm.gif


So, you lose a tone control, but I'm ok with that. I don't do coil splitting and like to keep it simple so this looked like a good option. I realize it's shown on an LP.
Currently my 2 single coils are wired parallel to the switch, so I either have those 2 or the humbucker (bridge position)

[sdb55]

Jun 6, 2020 12:38:21 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

hello and welcome to the forum!
were you intending to post a picture or no?

a normal lp switch only selects between two things. could you live with neck and bridge on a switch plus a blend pot to mix in the middle pickup?

That sounds interesting? Do you have a diagram for that?

Thx!

[sdb55]

Jun 6, 2020 13:42:36 GMT -5 sumgai said:

I presume you would like a diagram of some kind, but it would be nice if we could first see your current setup.  It's easier to modify what you already understand, rather than starting over from scratch.

Unfortunately, the guitar is getting a new Floyd nut, but is basically wired with the LP switch as:

Front position - Humbucker only
Rear position - 2 single coils wired together
Middle position - all 3 pickups

[thetragichero]

trying to find a thread with 'prior art' so nobody has to reinvent the wheel. please standby

[thetragichero]

all you really need is a no load blend pot. outer lug to middle pickup 'hot' center lug to volume pot

this is a lot more than you're needing: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/8244/simple-blended-strat-series-parallel

if we had a copy of the original picture here this would probably be perfect: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7253/pickups-volume-controls

[sdb55]

This is the picture I wasn't able to post.

www.irongear.co.uk/3_x_humbuckers__3_vol__1_tone_3-way_toggle_v02_igwm.gif

Trying to keep it as simple as possible. 

[JohnH]

Jun 6, 2020 16:50:36 GMT -5 sdb55 said:

This is the picture I wasn't able to post.

www.irongear.co.uk/3_x_humbuckers__3_vol__1_tone_3-way_toggle_v02_igwm.gif

Trying to keep it as simple as possible. 

That could be a basis, but there's a few features that you may not like:

a. the pots are wired in reverse, so that if you turn one down to zero it doesn't shunt all pickups to ground (as would normal wiring with two humbuckers and two volumes like on any common LP), but it puts a lot of resistance in series with the pickup, and it loads all other active pickups, so tone can get dull.

b. the middle pickup is always connected through its pot, loading other pickups

c. the pots are wired such that when you turn them down a bit, a very big resistance is added in series (the steep side of a log pot). If another pickup is fully on, the turned down one will quickly disappear


But IMO a better variation, just as simple:

1. Return the B and N volume pots to normality by swapping yellow and red wires at the pots

2. use a no-load pot for the middle (buy one or make it), delete the ground wires to the middle pot and move the blue wire to the right lug. This will give a smooth blend in of the M, and then at minimum, it will cut it right out

Basically that will all work like a normal LP, with M blended in if wanted, or completely out if not.


I still like the one that Traj linked above (thanks for re posting picture)

J

[sdb55]

Jun 6, 2020 17:22:49 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Jun 6, 2020 16:50:36 GMT -5 sdb55 said:

This is the picture I wasn't able to post.

www.irongear.co.uk/3_x_humbuckers__3_vol__1_tone_3-way_toggle_v02_igwm.gif

Trying to keep it as simple as possible. 

But IMO a better variation, just as simple:

1. Return the B and N volume pots to normality by swapping yellow and red wires at the pots

2. use a no-load pot for the middle (buy one or make it), delete the ground wires to the middle pot and move the blue wire to the right lug. This will give a smooth blend in of the M, and then at minimum, it will cut it right out

Basically that will all work like a normal LP, with M blended in if wanted, or completely out if not.


I still like the one that Traj linked above (thanks for re posting picture)





Not sure what a no load pot is? 

What would be ideal is when the switch is in the back position (as I call it) with the toggle pointed towards the headstock, the 2 single coils would be active, and I could take out the middle one using it's dedicated volume pot. Is that what your description above would allow me to do?

Thanks!

[thetragichero]

no load pot is basically a pot where at one end part of the track has been scraped off so that when it's off it's completely out of the circuit instead of loading down the circuit with its resistance

so what you'd like to do is definitely possible and probably makes more sense in that bridge humbucker and middle together (without neck) could very likely sound just the same as bridge humbucker alone if it's hot enough

so you'll wire it just like it is now just with the blend pot in between the middle pickup and the switch. no load would be ideal for this. there are tutorials on how to make a no load pot i think on this site

[sdb55]

Jun 6, 2020 22:51:03 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

no load pot is basically a pot where at one end part of the track has been scraped off so that when it's off it's completely out of the circuit instead of loading down the circuit with its resistance

so what you'd like to do is definitely possible and probably makes more sense in that bridge humbucker and middle together (without neck) could very likely sound just the same as bridge humbucker alone if it's hot enough

so you'll wire it just like it is now just with the blend pot in between the middle pickup and the switch. no load would be ideal for this. there are tutorials on how to make a no load pot i think on this site        



Cool! I saw a couple YT videos fro no load pots. Looks easy enough. 

The bridge pickup is a Duncan JB, which is pretty hot.
I was thinking/hoping to have the neck and middle pickups together, so when I want just the neck, I can roll off the middle knob and lose the middle pickup. Still do-able?
I probably wouldn't have much use for the bridge and middle pickup together.

Another question(s). So, when the neck and middle pickups are both active, would they still produce the dreaded single coil noise/hum? or would they sound wired together as they are now? I would hope the latter. And when the middle pickup is taken out of the mix and it's just the neck, I would expect the single coil noise. Does that make sense?

[thetragichero]

as long as the middle pickup is rwrp with respect to the neck pickup then in parallel they should be humcancelling

i don't dread hum as long as I'm playing. it only sucks when i stop

[sdb55]

rwrp = reverse wound?

I hear you on the hum 

So, in a perfect world:

Switch position 1 = Bridge only
Position 2 (middle position)  = all 3 
Position 3 = Middle and Neck pickups together, and I could roll off the middle pickup and just have the neck. 

[thetragichero]

reverse wound, reverse polarity
flipping one makes the opposite out of phase. flipping both makes them in phase but humcancelling

you'd be able to roll off the middle pickup in the middle position as well

[sdb55]

Jun 7, 2020 1:57:39 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

reverse wound, reverse polarity
flipping one makes the opposite out of phase. flipping both makes them in phase but humcancelling

you'd be able to roll off the middle pickup in the middle position as well

Sounds great!

I'm going to create a new diagram without the tone pot to make it easier, and to confirm how the output jack will connect to what I assume will be the bridge volume, since we're removing the tome pot from the equation?

Still no idea why I couldn't upload a pic. That could be a problem if I can't upload my updated diagram. Is there something more to do than click on the green "upload image" icon and choose your picture file?

[sumgai]

Jun 7, 2020 0:31:04 GMT -5 @sdb55 said:

So, in a perfect world:

Switch position 1 = Bridge only
Position 2 (middle position)  = all 3 
Position 3 = Middle and Neck pickups together, and I could roll off the middle pickup and just have the neck. 

Good as far as you've gone, but you've forgotten that in Position 2, Middle now has a roll-off pot, which means that you can also have Bridge and Neck in parallel, usually a desirable combination.  Really, the only difference between this and your current setup is that we've introduced a way to blend the Middle in or out, that's all.


BTW, it turns out that IronGear has implemented a protection against embedding images on other websites, specifically their layout drawings.  This explains why you can't post that drawing over here in The NutzHouse.  No big deal, we're getting along without it being directly available here in this thread, but I thought you might like to know that the fault isn't yours.

HTH




sumgai

[sdb55]

Jun 7, 2020 12:54:24 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Jun 7, 2020 0:31:04 GMT -5 @sdb55 said:

So, in a perfect world:

Switch position 1 = Bridge only
Position 2 (middle position)  = all 3 
Position 3 = Middle and Neck pickups together, and I could roll off the middle pickup and just have the neck. 

Good as far as you've gone, but you've forgotten that in Position 2, Middle now has a roll-off pot, which means that you can also have Bridge and Neck in parallel, usually a desirable combination.  Really, the only difference between this and your current setup is that we've introduced a way to blend the Middle in or out, that's all.


BTW, it turns out that IronGear has implemented a protection against embedding images on other websites, specifically their layout drawings.  This explains why you can't post that drawing over here in The NutzHouse.  No big deal, we're getting along without it being directly available here in this thread, but I thought you might like to know that the fault isn't yours.


Cool, thanks for clarifying the posting thing.
thetragichero mentioned the "neck and bridge" option as well, and that's gonna be awesome! Haven't had that before.
So how do we connect the output jack? The middle lug of the bridge volume?

[sumgai]

Jun 7, 2020 13:33:21 GMT -5 sdb55 said:

So how do we connect the output jack? The middle lug of the bridge volume?

Not so fast there, buckeroo!  If you did that, then how would you even hear the Neck alone in Position 3?   The output jack should be getting it's signal from the selector switch, plain and simple.

As things stand right now, I'm going to assume that you'd like to have one Volume pot for each pup.    While we can do a diagram for you, you should be aware that we like to do a little teaching, here in the NutzHouse.  You might be asked to draw your own diagram, whereupon we'd gladly vet that for you.  The reason being, if you understand (at least in some small degree) what you've done, then you can more easily troubleshoot any future problems.  Plus, you get to look like a hero to the next person who likes your scheme and wants to know if you have a diagram.  BONUS!

HTH





sumgai

[sdb55]

Jun 7, 2020 18:49:16 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Jun 7, 2020 13:33:21 GMT -5 sdb55 said:

So how do we connect the output jack? The middle lug of the bridge volume?

Not so fast there, buckeroo!  If you did that, then how would you even hear the Neck alone in Position 3?   The output jack should be getting it's signal from the selector switch, plain and simple.

As things stand right now, I'm going to assume that you'd like to have one Volume pot for each pup.    While we can do a diagram for you, you should be aware that we like to do a little teaching, here in the NutzHouse.  You might be asked to draw your own diagram, whereupon we'd gladly vet that for you.  The reason being, if you understand (at least in some small degree) what you've done, then you can more easily troubleshoot any future problems.  Plus, you get to look like a hero to the next person who likes your scheme and wants to know if you have a diagram.  BONUS!


Ha! My eyes have deceived me. In my diagram, the output jack, master tone middle lug and middle volume 3rd lug are connected to the switch (blue wire)
I now assume we would have just the output jack making the connection to the switch.

Yes, 1 volume per pickup. 

For sure, I'm all for making a drawing and agree it would be helpful for me and hopefully for someone else that can use it in the future. How will I upload it though if I can't upload a pic from my computer? I'll try and make one with Mac Preview or hand draw one in a bit and see if I can upload to this thread. 

Thanks!

[sdb55]

Hopefully, this will upload. Let me know how close I am 

[thetragichero]

very close. move the wire from the middle volume pot to the same switch position as the neck. the middle lug on the switch is your output so unless you want the middle pickup available in all three positions you have to move it
but good job and good use of paint. i get frustrated trying to draw on the pc so i usually just scribble it with a pen

[sumgai]

The funny part is, your diagram shows exactly what the majority of players would do - have the Middle blendable in any position of the selector. While you said that Bridge + Middle would probably not be used, you do have that option in this diagram. Essentially, this is an LP with two pups, and a third pup has been added to the pair with its own Volume control. If the control is not completely turned down, then the Mid will always be heard at some volume level. If both of the other two are turned most/all of the way down, then you get Mid alone, regardless of switch position.

Now for the less-than-good news.... You might be accused of taking one shortcut that you shouldn't take - the right-most terminal of each pot should be shown as going to ground. Without that connection, this scheme becomes an "all-on or all-off" setup. This is one of those things where assuming that others "already know that" will cause troubles down the road.

It's my gut feeling that if you use 250K pots, then the overall tone has a decent chance of getting rather dull. Even for the single coil pups, I'd recommend going to 500K for each of the three pickups. Should keep things a little more "crisp".

And finally, nice diagram.

HTH






sumgai

[cem]

Sorry to butt in but i've been asking questions about the same subject for a while but couldn't get an answer.

It's my gut feeling that if you use 250K pots, then the overall tone has a decent chance of getting rather dull. Even for the single coil pups, I'd recommend going to 500K for each of the three pickups. Should keep things a little more "crisp".

So the blend pot in this diagram below presents almost the same situation. sumgai do you think it would be better if i used a 500k no load pot?
Also the dullness you are talking about only effects the pickup which is blended(in sdb55's case the middle pup), not the others right?

[newey]

sdb55-

JohnH warned you earlier in this thread about an issue with pot wiring (and I am surprised no one else who reviewed your diagram mentioned it):

a. the pots are wired in reverse, so that if you turn one down to zero it doesn't shunt all pickups to ground (as would normal wiring with two humbuckers and two volumes like on any common LP), but it puts a lot of resistance in series with the pickup, and it loads all other active pickups, so tone can get dull.

To correct this, red wires go to the CW lug of the pot, yellow wires go from the "wiper" (the middle lug of the pots) to the switch.

This also bears on the answer to cem 's question. We have to focus the overall load on the circuit. Any pot that is connected in any given switch position(s) affects the overall load. As an example, in the classic 5-position Strat wiring, the tone controls are wired to the N and M pickups, and the B pickup doesn't have a tone control. At position 2, M + B, there is only the M tone pot in the circuit, while at position 4 (N + M), both tone pots are connected in parallel and both load the circuit. If you measure the resistance at those positions, you will see the increased resistance at position 4 compared with the other positions. Of course, you can't hear the difference because, with standard Strat wiring, there is no way to take those pots out of the circuit.

But one classic Strat rewiring option is to move the middle tone control over to the bridge pickup (done, usually, not because of the different loading, but simply because people wanted a bridge tone control). If that is done, then there is no position at which there is more than one tone pot in cicuit at a time. While I have never done so, if you were to do an A-B comparison between these two wirings, I believe you would hear a difference between the two wirings at position 4.

[cem]

newey 
So in my case a no load 500k pot is better right?
Since i will mostly use the blend fully on or off(out of the circuit). The blended pickup will see 3 pots at once, one volume, one tone and blend. So 500k with no load is better for tone right?

[newey]

So 500k with no load is better for tone right?

That's what sumgai was saying above, and I concur, given the three pots. If the 500K pots are too bright, you can just dial the tone down to about a "7" or so and it should be roughly equivalent to 250K pots.

A lot of this comes down to personal preferences, and also the specific pickups being used. But you can always dial brightness down with the tone control, but you can't add in brightness that wasn't there in the first place. IOW, it's always better to err on the side of brightness rather than dullness/muddiness.

[sdb55]

Jun 8, 2020 3:27:50 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

very close. move the wire from the middle volume pot to the same switch position as the neck. the middle lug on the switch is your output so unless you want the middle pickup available in all three positions you have to move it
but good job and good use of paint. i get frustrated trying to draw on the pc so i usually just scribble it with a pen

Good point and thanks! Yeah, Preview/Paint can be a PITA especially when you want to make fine adjustments to the wires etc.
Probably could've hand drawn this on 10 minutes or less, haha