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Post by frets on Jun 8, 2020 14:16:26 GMT -5
Hi Guys,
I just discovered the best method to repair an old PIO laying in the back of some drawer in your shop.
Just had success!!
I had a heartbreak today working on a 50’s style Les Paul Harness. One of the Black Beauties snapped where old PIO’s always snap - at the junction where the cap meets the lead. I usually don’t try to repair these because one doesn’t have ever have enough of a stub to get the solder to stick. And because it just gets frustrating and never works and one ends up throwing the cap at the wall.
But I had to fix this one. So, I used my Dremel Trio, cut a canal around the stub. You can’t go too deep or you’ll ruin the cap. I went in about a mm. Got enough of the stub to poke up. Used a diamond file to scratch up the stub. Then, you drop a “bead” of solder into the canal. You can’t try and solder to the stub. You have to load up the solderer with sufficient solder to drip into the canal. The solder fills the canal . You now have the solder sticking to stub in “solder canal” You then carefully attach a new lead perpendicular to the solder canal on the cap. Voila!! It worked. Now I can fix all my old bees that I though we’re worthless.
I finished it off with topping it with hot glue and then painted it black with acrylic nail polish. It looks good.
So that’s it for all of you that keep broken PIO’s because you figure one day you’ll fix them.
- Cindi
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Post by thetragichero on Jun 8, 2020 15:11:26 GMT -5
the a-hole in me came out to say: throw it in the trash and use a brand new ceramic/chiclet from my parts bin
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Post by frets on Jun 8, 2020 15:57:27 GMT -5
So I take it Trag, you’re one in the camp that construction doesn’t matter? Try telling that to my snobby clientele. I do think certain PIO’s and PETP capacitors are unique sounding. A friend did a test on subjectively if a handful of guitarists could tell the differences in cap construction. I picked out the PIO correctly 4 out of 5 times. I can’t remember what kind of PIO it was. I got the PETP one 3 out of 5 times, a K73y9. But when performing, I don’t think it makes much of a difference what kind of a cap one has in their guitar. By the time you hoist in the Overdrive, Chorus and Delay, who can tell a PIO from any of the others. Again, my clientele always want PIO’s. Here are just my .022 and .047’s - it’s madness!!  |
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Post by thetragichero on Jun 8, 2020 16:13:57 GMT -5
i still have a few sprague orange drop type capacitors that i use because they look cool but inside a guitar when we're dealing with mV of signal i think they could make a damned bit of difference. hundreds of volts inside a tube amp maybe, especially if the cap is underspeced and/or leaky or microphonic but even then i guys get a little too nuts with that stuff. i use axial leaded film caps the most in amps because they're cheap and easy to use. haven't touched any of the sozo, etc because that smells like geefooey to me
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Post by sumgai on Jun 8, 2020 16:48:04 GMT -5
frets , Gotta hand to ya, lady - if you can make trag jump up and down like that, then you're doing OK in my book!  sumgai
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Post by thetragichero on Jun 8, 2020 17:22:14 GMT -5
i guess this is no worse than when people were putting EVERYTHING in cryo chambers like ten years ago claiming that it straightened the molecules and gave better tone
i also understand that guitarists hear a lot more with their eyes than their ears and that your giving them what they want (and want to pay handsomely for), so it's not a value judgement
i made point-to-point mojo component fuzzes before just for the hell of it. didn't sound any different from the ones i made on perf from whatever components in my bins
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Post by sumgai on Jun 8, 2020 20:08:05 GMT -5
thetragichero , Hey man, don't take it personally, I'm on your side in this particular discussion. But don't tell frets I said that! sumgai
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Post by newey on Jun 9, 2020 16:30:22 GMT -5
I've said it before, I'll say it again- double-blind study using a statistically significant number of ears, or it didn't happen.  As ChrisK would have said (and did, on several occasions), a capacitor provides . . .capacitance. Now, if the capacitances of the caps one is testing differ, that could explain a difference in sound. But if we test all the capacitors before our double-blind test, and they all read identical (within some margin of error), we still aren't doing "science". One would need to be able to identify some electrical feature of the PIOs, apart from capacitance, that is causing a difference in the sound. So, unless one can identify some other electrical quantity besides capacitance that one cap provides that others don't, we may have a result, but we don't have an explanation for that result. Without an explanation, the result might be mere happenstance or coincidental. |
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Post by sumgai on Jun 9, 2020 17:10:41 GMT -5
newey, I don't know if you realize it, but that was undoubtedly your best "lawyer speech" yet, here in The NutzHouse! A pretty fair number of "old timers" (well-oiled Nutz) have said the same thing, from ChrisK to Runewalker (and his Tonewood discussions), and on to my more acerbic forays into the world of testing without bias. But even surpassing capacitors, we have antigua and his Pickups forum, which just happens to contain a sub-forum dealing with Pickup Testing and Modeling. New readers, trust me on this one fact: discussions like these have been going on since before I was born, and will almost certainly be going on after my grandchildren have passed away. But that doesn't make it any less interesting. 
frets , Like you, I'm blind about where the money comes from. If I open my wallet to turn loose some of Uncle Sam's Green Stamps, then it doesn't matter to me one whit if some of them came from a Ph.D. and some of them came from a person with the IQ of a raw carrot - they both put food on the table, and that's all that's necessary to know, isn't it. 'Nuff said.  sumgai |
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Post by gumbo on Jun 10, 2020 4:44:59 GMT -5
WOW ! ..a thread that's more fun left un-derailed !!  ...may your P stay O'd |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 10, 2020 7:43:21 GMT -5
So I take it Trag, you’re one in the camp that construction doesn’t matter? Try telling that to my snobby clientele. Your cork-sniffing clientele with their golden ears aren't totally wrong. But context does matter. I recall reading a sales pitch for using NOS bumblebee caps in a Les Paul with such nonsense as 'clean silky highs" when the tone is on 10. Amusingly, in this context the caps are essentially out of the circuit unless the tone control is rotated significantly counter-clockwise. I sincerely doubt anyone would be able to tell the difference between a good PiO and the abortion known as a ceramic, with the guitar's tone control(s) at fully-clockwise. On the other hand, I would tend to believe someone if they claimed they could tell the difference between capacitor types with the tone control(s) fully counterclockwise. Of course there are no 'silky highs' when the highs are essentially cut. With a G&L bass-cut control at full bass-cut, I reckon that would be a situation where the difference between capacitor types would be rather obvious. And in that context, "silky highs' might even be an appropriate description. I recall a tech article from many years ago from Steve Bench: The Sound of Capacitors which was an attempt to discern the performance of difference between types in a visual way. My takeaway is that PiO and Polystyrene tend to be the most 'neutral', that is to say they show the least signs of anything other than the effect of an ideal capacitor, and other types vary from having a slightly different signature (polyester and polycarbonate) to downright warty (ceramic). I'd probably avoid ceramic caps entirely but wouldn't bother to replace most other types of caps which were already installed. YMMV.
As ChrisK would have said (and did, on several occasions), a capacitor provides . . .capacitance. If we're going to bring the dearly departed into this conversation, let's include his own words... Well, Chris certainly thinks that he has a more informed view..... I'm of the opinion that both of these are in appropriate for quality audio circuitry. But then, I'm a snob because I know why these are inferior. Ceramic is similar in dielectric material to piezo pickups. There have been studies (by real engineers, not audio flufferpuckey merchants) that indicate that the size of a ceramic substrate changes physically when an electrical charge is placed across it. This changes back while the charge dissipates. This is the piezo part. (Remember discussions a'board about a piezo crystal being predominantly capacitive in characteristic?) In other words, there is a memory effect that affects the sound quality thru a delayed (and hence non-linear) action. Ceramic bypass capacitors such as a Z5U type can have significant leakage (which manifests itself as a parallel resistance effect) as well as a -20/+80% tolerance. Mylar capacitors are also not high quality. They have what's known as dielectric absorption. The complete charge is delayed in its ability to be discharged into a load once the applied charge is removed. Again, a non-linear memory effect. This is most evident in high voltage capacitors (such as 10 KVDC) which come shipped with a shorting wire wound across both terminals. After Hi-Pot testing, the cap is shorted. Even if the voltage is zero, if left unshorted, the charge can eventually climb to hundreds of volts. Since these effects are time-based, the effect varies with frequency. It's similar to a motor is a generator, a generator is a motor (DC et al). Now, there are some excellent mylar and ceramic capacitors. I know where to get them and how to read their spec sheets. However, most folk are not electrical engineers and most guitar parts vendors are not going to sell the best parts, but the cheapest parts. Most of the generic mylar or ceramic 0.022 caps used in the industry cost less than $0.05 in thousands. They're sold for $0.25 to $1.00. I tend to use OEM polycarbonate or polypropylene caps because I can, since I have access and knowledge regarding their electrical specifications. Most capacitors used in vintage guitars were used not because they were excellent capacitors, but because they were cheap capacitors. The defects native to such are often the effects cherished for their vintage sound. I can tell you if a cap is lousy or good; I can't tell you if it will definitively sound lousy or good in your application. But, John is most correct; unless one can immediately A/B switch between components under test, during THE SAME AUDIO EVENT (such as one sustaining string pluck), any comparison is highly suspect and likely hydrogenated felderpucky. (Never underestimate the ability of a human to rationalize, especially if they've spent coin serious on audio flufferpucky.) |
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Post by gumbo on Jun 10, 2020 8:29:04 GMT -5
...see ...NO derailing.....  |
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Post by gumbo on Jun 10, 2020 8:30:07 GMT -5
....I can assure our Readers that I will find a way of making up for this as soon as I can....
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 10, 2020 8:44:02 GMT -5
....I can assure our Readers that I will find a way of making up for this as soon as I can.... You better! A zebra without his stripes is just a white horse black horse some kind of horse. |
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Post by newey on Jun 10, 2020 9:37:58 GMT -5
. IIRC, that debate is now settled- black horse with white stripes. Comes down to whether it's an inhibition of melanin production, or extra deposition of melanin, and it's inhibition. All seriousness aside, , it seems what ChrisK is saying is that the capacitance of the cheap ones varies (or decays)over some time transient. Certainly a differing capacitance, whether instantaneous or over the time of a note, could affect the tone, I can buy that. |
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 10, 2020 12:13:57 GMT -5
A zebra is not a horse. I just watched a thing about how colonizers in Africa learned the hard way.
Some capacitors actually give us more than just capacitance. I think the most significant for our purposes can be modeled as resistance either in series or parallel (or both) with the capacitance. That kind of thing could make a noticeable difference in tone, but of course only when the T knob is all the way down.
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Post by blademaster2 on Jun 10, 2020 12:22:27 GMT -5
I've said it before, I'll say it again- double-blind study using a statistically significant number of ears, or it didn't happen. As ChrisK would have said (and did, on several occasions), a capacitor provides . . .capacitance. Now, if the capacitances of the caps one is testing differ, that could explain a difference in sound. But if we test all the capacitors before our double-blind test, and they all read identical (within some margin of error), we still aren't doing "science". One would need to be able to identify some electrical feature of the PIOs, apart from capacitance, that is causing a difference in the sound. So, unless one can identify some other electrical quantity besides capacitance that one cap provides that others don't, we may have a result, but we don't have an explanation for that result. Without an explanation, the result might be mere happenstance or coincidental. I will take the usual risks by chiming in here. The difference in capacitor types is usually determined by their dielectric material (some aspects regarding reliability and lifespan come into play with the metal used, but I will ignore that). The reason that ceramic caps are considered poor is that their capacitance is poorly controlled, varies with age (heating them above the dielectric's Curie Temperature can bring them back into spec), and also varies with applied voltage. The latter will in theory influence the tone if a circuit uses that type of part, especially if it is in a bass-cut circuit, but I have never experimented and I cannot personally claim this. I would call this an intermodulation distortion (if anyone disagrees ....). Other factors in capacitor construction might introduce higher resistance or inductance in the part, all varying in extent depending on frequency - after all a "capacitor" is a physical thing that is ideally only intended to exhibit capacitance, but other things also result from unavoidable non-idealities of materials used. For that reason highly-precise filters and high quality audio circuits like speaker cross-overs and circuitry in stereos, *not* necessarily guitar tone circuits, will avoid ceramic capacitors and stay with capacitors made from other more stable dielectrics like mica, polypropylene and polystyrene. I have no knowledge of the PiO capacitors, nor their electrical properties, but I think that if they are similar to electrolytic capacitors and that they have rolled-up electrodes then their resistance and inductance will be higher than, say, polystyrene capacitors. I would, however, *never* tell people that what they claim that they hear does not exist, and as always no lab measurements or scope traces will change my mind on that. Now if people say that they can hear a difference between polystyrene, PiO, or polypropylene capacitors - or if they can hear it when the tone circuit is on full - then I will remain skeptical, but I would not tell them otherwise. |
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Post by antigua on Jun 10, 2020 15:27:02 GMT -5
PIO caps make people feel good. They're perfectly legitimate in that application, and worth their high cost. I wish people wouldn't claim they sound better, though. That's disinformation. Things that sound good make us feel good, and thanks to the transitive properties of emotions, things that make is feel good can seem to sound good, but in that instance, only because they make us feel good, not because there is any real difference. The same sort of thing happens with wine, expensive wine only tastes better because we feel sophisticated when we drink it.
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Post by blademaster2 on Jun 10, 2020 16:12:37 GMT -5
I *wish* that was true about wine! I would love to save money and enjoy a $8 bottle as much as the $21 bottles we buy - it is nothing to do with prestige for me, but I do prefer the ones that I buy and that makes it worth the added cash.
Same goes for single malt scotch, although I have tasted blends and cheaper ones that I quite enjoyed. It is quite possible that the scotch is influenced by some level of shaming, but the wine in my case definitely is not.
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Post by antigua on Jun 10, 2020 17:04:58 GMT -5
I *wish* that was true about wine! I would love to save money and enjoy a $8 bottle as much as the $21 bottles we buy - it is nothing to do with prestige for me, but I do prefer the ones that I buy and that makes it worth the added cash. Same goes for single malt scotch, although I have tasted blends and cheaper ones that I quite enjoyed. It is quite possible that the scotch is influenced by some level of shaming, but the wine in my case definitely is not. People can't tell the wines apart in taste tests, in various tests that have been performed over the years. If you can tell wines apart, you ought to showcase your abilities, they wine industry would surely thank you for it. I'm not so sure about Scotch, I could believe it mellows with age, I like 12 years the best, not too "aged". I with the PIO cap lovers (and vintage enthusiasts) would take the attitude that they just want their guitar to be authentic to the era, and quit with the idea that old things sound better, because there's no shame in appreciation of the past, but spreading myths about old growth timber, or nitrocellulose sounding "better" drags the level of discourse waaaay down. |
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Post by blademaster2 on Jun 10, 2020 20:10:43 GMT -5
I *wish* that was true about wine! I would love to save money and enjoy a $8 bottle as much as the $21 bottles we buy - it is nothing to do with prestige for me, but I do prefer the ones that I buy and that makes it worth the added cash. Same goes for single malt scotch, although I have tasted blends and cheaper ones that I quite enjoyed. It is quite possible that the scotch is influenced by some level of shaming, but the wine in my case definitely is not. People can't tell the wines apart in taste tests, in various tests that have been performed over the years. If you can tell wines apart, you ought to showcase your abilities, they wine industry would surely thank you for it. I'm not so sure about Scotch, I could believe it mellows with age, I like 12 years the best, not too "aged". I with the PIO cap lovers (and vintage enthusiasts) would take the attitude that they just want their guitar to be authentic to the era, and quit with the idea that old things sound better, because there's no shame in appreciation of the past, but spreading myths about old growth timber, or nitrocellulose sounding "better" drags the level of discourse waaaay down. I will just say the following: 1) Woods do grow differently with differing density depending on the surroundings and growing conditions, and I understand that newly-planted trees grow faster with more light available. 2) The amount of finish penetration into the wood and its stiffness/hardness will change the resonance of the wood. I ruined the excellent tone of my first guitar by refinishing it with a thicker and more penetrating lacquer replacing thinner urethane (not expecting the finish to make any difference at all). ... and although I can never (not usually) tell which wine is which, if you poured me a cheaper wine alongside one of the wines I like so I could do a blindfold test I am quite sure I would like my usual type much more. If not I would be pleased to save the money. |
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Post by frets on Jun 10, 2020 21:19:00 GMT -5
Gosh, I started this whole thread with just “how to fix a PIO.” We have a lot of intelligent members, a number of whom are engineers.
I’m not; but, I wanted to throw in an idea that may end the debate - in a logical manner. This idea came to me after Retread’s comments and reading ChrisK’s opinions. This will be a long one guys. It took me a long time to compose my thoughts and come up with an applicable premise. Something beyond confirmation bias. It is an argument that holds that the empirical and qualia are not always mutually exclusive.
I’ll use observation in the physical sciences as a proof of the interaction of the real and the belief. It is based off of the idea that the importance of the individual’s subjective experience of an object (in this case, the sound of capacitor per construction) in the formation of that object’s identity - is fundamentally a series of perceived sensory qualia. For argument’s sake, this qualia, constitutes an object beyond its strictly empirical properties.
For example, a river at time T1 has a certain amount of sediment on the riverbed, as well as a (theoretically) measurable amount of waterborne debris in addition to a certain number of water molecules. Tragichero identifies the river at T1 as the Guitarnutz River - he notes the river’s geographic position, its bends, the height of its banks, its ‘wetness,’ the water’s smell and coloration, etc., and concludes that it is in fact the Guitarnutz River. Retread stays at the Guitarnutz River through time T2; a heavy rain begins to fall. At time T3, when the rain has stopped, Retread arrives at the river to join Tragichero. Retread identifies the river as the Guitarnutz River. Would Tragichero be correct in claiming that no, the identifier “Guitarnutz River,” is no longer accurate at T3, given the higher water levels resultant from the rainfall at T2? The river no longer possesses the same quantity of water molecules at T3 as it had at T1; in fact, the river’s constitution changes from second to second as the water moves, meaning the river will technically never be the same twice. To claim that the river is different with each passing second would be absurd - Retread is experiencing the same river at T3 that Tragichero experienced at T1.
How is it that we know the Guitarnutz River is the same river at both times T1 and T3, when it is in constant change? Because we have created a logical construction, “Guitarnutz River,” from our experiences of the observable sensory qualia at hand. Intersubjectivity plays an important role here (at least in my opinion).
Anyway, this is the point that the “Caps Are All the Same Group” are trying to make - T1 or T3, the Guitarnutz River is the Guitarnutz River - but “capacitor sound,” like “river” is a logical construction arrived at through both empirical evidence AND sensory qualia. The subjective qualia process is achieved by what’s referred to as the transcendental (or phenomenological, in Husserlian terms) reduction, which occurs internal to the individual.
The disregard for the experiential phenomena produced by the capacitor cannot be dismissed. Yes, one capacitor is no different from the next insofar as it is a “capacitor” (as a man made construct) and its function is for capacitance - to store energy, for us, shunt frequencies to ground), but the Guitarnutz River IS different from second to second, and presents a different experience at sunrise, sunset, etc. A cold river will feel different from a warm river, and a PIO capacitor will sound different from Polystyrene, Mylar, Ceramic when in use within the systems of an electric guitar:amplifier relationship - the caps are functionally identical bodies, but they can also be fundamentally different. The capacitor’s function as an energy/frequency ‘manager’ along with its measurable outputs, has to be understood in tandem with the experience of the phenomena produced by the guitar:amp subjective perception relationship. It doesn’t have to be all one way or all the other - all the same sound, or all different sounds. It’s both. Different capacitors WILL induce different experiences of the same fundamental, objectively measurable frequencies.
Moreover, the capacitor is just one component part of the guitar:amp relationship. The “Caps Are All Same Group” might as well say (in relation to capacitors and the sound produced) “All water molecules are the same, so all rivers are the same,” when, from moment to moment, the electrons of the water molecules will be in entirely different positions (and so really aren’t “the same” to begin with - there’s variability). Perhaps that’s a poor example, because when you take a drink of water, the position of the electrons doesn’t result in any discernible taste difference - but the fact stands that the drink in question IS different from the last drink of water you took, whether that difference is readily observable to you or not.
Furthermore, even assuming the capacitor as the guitar/amp’s most basic contributor to the perceived construct of tone, an equivalent claim like “All electrons are the same,” would be correct only because there is absolutely no variability in the mass, structure, or charge of electrons - they’re all identical (so far as we know, at this point). Not so with capacitors, which can be made from different materials, etc.
The “Caps Are All the Same Group” argument is also like saying “All ties are the same,” when looking over Clark Kent’s business suit in a comic book. It’s technically true, but it doesn’t take into consideration the color, fabric, texture, or pattern of the tie. A statement like that just over-fixates on the utility of the object. Clark Kent is Superman, but Clark Kent and Superman are two very different people.
The question of IDENTITY is important here, and the nuances of identity ultimately trace to phenomena (i.e., experiences of the object), which are experienced both sensorily and subjectively and as an adjunct, with the cognitive realization of empirical data.
There is evidence to support caps are the same regarding sound given measurable quantitative data. Quantitative evidence to support caps are different in sound also exists (as Retread alluded to with Steve Bench’ thorough paper).
In addition, Qualitative data can not be merely dismissed (I.e., trials of blind cap identification). The empirical and sensory qualia must be recognized in tandem regarding this subject.
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Post by sumgai on Jun 11, 2020 16:55:19 GMT -5
frets , Cindi, I don' know where to start. Honestly, you're looking a man with "deer in the headlights" on his face - and that's happened only a half a dozen times in my life. I think the best place to start would be to keep my fat mouth shut. Done.
The rest of you, you all need to know only two things in life - if it ain't Glendoaugh, then it ain't single-malt whiskey. Period. The other things is, any and all wine is raw material that wasn't considered to be good enough for the making of brandy. Seconds, that's what you're drinking.* Yes, I can be labeled, or pigeon-holed. Call me.... The Old Curmedgeon.  TOC * Remind me sometime to tell you the story of the President of Guinness Beer.
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Post by gumbo on Jun 12, 2020 8:28:55 GMT -5
...well, as I get older, I know I sound better.... although sometimes a little Hoarse (although perhaps that is a little Zebra)
...I'm also getting taller, because the top of my head is poking through the top of my hair....
I have recent testing (last Tuesday) which produced factual evidence on all of this when I got a year older ..... and had to have my hearing aids re-EQ'd
g-f-b
Sorry, I couldn't help myself......
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Post by frets on Jun 12, 2020 14:49:47 GMT -5
Fooey! Is that how you spell it? |
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