Challenging HSH wiring idea

[gr8fulpickr]

Howdy. I'm building a HSH configured guitar. The wiring is way over my head, so I paid GuitarElectronics.com to do the schematic. They were pretty responsive at first, but have since gone MIA. I'm at the point where I need the schematic done so I can move forward.

So first question is whether there are any knowledgeable and reputable technicians you can point me to for getting this schematic done, because it's a bit of a doozy.

So here's what I'm doing at a high level (assuming all of this is possible, which I still need to verify):

I'm getting a prototype 5-way, 10-position switch from Freeway that is made specifically for HSH configurations. I have the needed diagrams, but was asked not to share them publicly since this switch is not available yet. If you're familiar with these 10-position switches, then you can probably imagine what it can/will do. Basically, no need for mini-toggles for coil splitting.

The guitar will also have a Scott Walker preamp/buffer with 0-6dB gain boost option, allwired for OBEL.

My desire is to have it wired as follows:

1) Push/pull for Master volume and gain boost from preamp
2) Push/pull for master tone and reverse phase
3) Dual concentric - Top = Blend knob for out-of-phase (tho I guess it will blend anything); Bottom = Adjust gain for preamp boost (0-6dB)
4) Bass contour (similar to Reverend & G&L)
5) 3-way Mini-toggle - Up = disengage preamp battery; Middle = preamp engaged; Down = Preamp bypassed
6) Mini-toggle to bypass OBEL
7) Mini-toggle for series/parallel (Not sure this is needed or if the Freeway switch can do this, but just thought about it as I was writing this)

Yeah, it's a little crazy, but it's just my wish list. Freeway seems to think all of this can be done.

Anyway, ran across this community and seems like some knowledgeable folks, so thought I'd post it here and see what you guys think. 

Too crazy or all doable?

[sumgai]

'pickr,


Hi, and to The NutzHouse!

Jun 16, 2020 16:41:18 GMT -5 gr8fulpickr said:

The wiring is way over my head, so I paid GuitarElectronics.com to do the schematic. They were pretty responsive at first, but have since gone MIA.

Not the first time we've heard this, but some people get great results from them. Inconsistent is the most kind thing I can say about them.

I'm getting a prototype 5-way, 10-position switch from Freeway that is made specifically for HSH configurations. I have the needed diagrams, but was asked not to share them publicly since this switch is not available yet.

We have to stop right there. Even if you were to PM one of us to share said diagrams, that'd be a breach of your agreement with Freeway. We don't want to put anyone into that kind of position, it makes for hard feelings all around. (Asking Freeway for permission to share with us won't work, 'cause it means that the diagrams are as good as public the moment they are posted.)

Which then comes to say, without knowing how that switch works, we're in no-man's land - we have the general knowledge to make your desired combinations with "standard" switching components, but we can't do it to your specs with that particular switch.

If you're familiar with these 10-position switches, then you can probably imagine what it can/will do. Basically, no need for mini-toggles for coil splitting.

Yeah, but imagination won't put your guitar together, sorry to say.

The best thing I can tell is that we not only will do it, but that we want to do it, once the switch is available for sale without restriction.  Everything taken together, it's best for all of us (you, us, Freeway) that we don't try to "bend the rules" on this one.  But do keep coming around, there's lots of stuff to trigger ideas that you may wish to discuss, whilst waiting for permission to go ahead.

HTH





sumgai

[gr8fulpickr]

Jun 16, 2020 17:27:10 GMT -5 sumgai said:

'pickr,


Hi, and to The NutzHouse!

Jun 16, 2020 16:41:18 GMT -5 gr8fulpickr said:

The wiring is way over my head, so I paid GuitarElectronics.com to do the schematic. They were pretty responsive at first, but have since gone MIA.

Not the first time we've heard this, but some people get great results from them. Inconsistent is the most kind thing I can say about them.

I'm getting a prototype 5-way, 10-position switch from Freeway that is made specifically for HSH configurations. I have the needed diagrams, but was asked not to share them publicly since this switch is not available yet.

We have to stop right there. Even if you were to PM one of us to share said diagrams, that'd be a breach of your agreement with Freeway. We don't want to put anyone into that kind of position, it makes for hard feelings all around. (Asking Freeway for permission to share with us won't work, 'cause it means that the diagrams are as good as public the moment they are posted.)

Which then comes to say, without knowing how that switch works, we're in no-man's land - we have the general knowledge to make your desired combinations with "standard" switching components, but we can't do it to your specs with that particular switch.

If you're familiar with these 10-position switches, then you can probably imagine what it can/will do. Basically, no need for mini-toggles for coil splitting.

Yeah, but imagination won't put your guitar together, sorry to say.

The best thing I can tell is that we not only will do it, but that we want to do it, once the switch is available for sale without restriction.  Everything taken together, it's best for all of us (you, us, Freeway) that we don't try to "bend the rules" on this one.  But do keep coming around, there's lots of stuff to trigger ideas that you may wish to discuss, whilst waiting for permission to go ahead.

HTH





sumgai

Yeah, I hear ya. That's why I was primarily hoping someone here could point me to a reputable tech who could help me with the schematic.

[newey]

gr8ful-

Sumgai is right,without the switch logic for the 5-way, we can't be much help. But your "wish list" is also unclear in some respects. First off, what pickup is going to be put out of phase by the P/P on the master tone? And, what is being blended into what with the Blend knob?

Also,it's not clear to me why you would want a 3-position switch that engagaes the preamp, or disengages it, or turns off the preamp battery? Why not just use a two-position switch and have the battery engaged when the preamp is on, and disengaged when it is off? More commonly, one would just use a switched jack, such that the battery was disconnected whenever the cable is disconnected,just like on a pedal.

And, is the OBEL going to use a stereo jack/cable into a junction box, or are we talking separate in/out jacks? And, the preamp is buffering the loop when it is engaged?

[gr8fulpickr]

newey - thanks for the reply. Here are my responses...

First off, what pickup is going to be put out of phase by the P/P on the master tone?

The only out-of-phase tone I care about is the two humbuckers. That said, it's my understanding that I would still get out-of-phase tones in other positions. This is what Freeway said in regards to the out-of-phase: "Worth bearing in mind that reversing the phase of the neck pickup would create reverse phase tones in position 3, 4 & 9. It would also have the effect of switching the split coil to the outer coil position in 9 & 10."

And, what is being blended into what with the Blend knob?

This is one of the many things I need advice on, which is why I paid someone to do the schematic and help me figure out what is doable. Since he seems to have disappeared, I'm flying a bit bling.

Again, this was a wish list. But several people advised me that out-of-phase tones (which I really, really want) typically sound better if they can be blended. In most of the mod articles I've read on this, you'd typically blend, for example, an out of phase neck with other in-phase pickups. I don't usually mod my guitars and haven't ever played one with an out-of-phase option, but I do love that sound.

Also, it's not clear to me why you would want a 3-position switch that engages the preamp, or disengages it, or turns off the preamp battery? Why not just use a two-position switch and have the battery engaged when the preamp is on, and disengaged when it is off? More commonly, one would just use a switched jack, such that the battery was disconnected whenever the cable is disconnected,just like on a pedal.

I have a guitar that came with preamp and OBEL. I've forgotten to unplug it many times and drained the battery. It's definitely not a "must have" if it is unnecessarily complicated. I just thought it would be nice to be able to flip the switch to disengage the battery. If it will disengage in preamp off position, that works too. But I don't think my current guitar does that.

And, is the OBEL going to use a stereo jack/cable into a junction box, or are we talking separate in/out jacks?

Separate in/out jacks

And, the preamp is buffering the loop when it is engaged?

I believe the buffer is on anytime the preamp is engaged. Scott Walker (who makes the preamp) suggested having a toggle to bypass the OBEL, but still have the buffering.

Thanks in advance for your advice. I really appreciate it. I've been reading through a guitar wiring book, but I just don't have any expertise in this area. I got excited when Freeway said he'd let me use this new HSH prototype switch, but I guess the newness makes it more difficult to get advice. 

[newey]

As for using the jack to switch out the battery, are you any more or less likely to remember to flick the switch than you are to remember to unplug the cable?

Of course, you could do both, such that either flipping the switch to "battery off" or unplugging the cable disconnects the battery, thus potentially another layer of protection. But most preamps draw a small enough current that, so long as the battery is off when not being played (i.e., unplugged), one gets many months of battery life.

I have heard of folks wanting a separate battery switch if the guitar is a spare one that is going to be left plugged in onstage for long periods during gigs.

Not to harp on the battery issue, but I think (without having drawn anything out) that a simple 2-position DPDT switch could switch the preamp and battery in/out, but you might need extra poles on a switch to have a separate battery off position. Just thinking out loud on this, but any simplification you can do to the overall scheme will help, and if a bigger switch is needed, then any issues with fitting everything into the axe will be exacerbated.

As for the phasing, you can put either the bridge HB OOP or the neck HB. If, for example, you put the bridge HB OOP, you would then have the bridge OOP with the neck and bridge OOP with the middle pup. You would not have neck OOP with the middle. If you put the neck HB OOP, you get neck OOP w/ the bridge or neck OOP with the middle, but not bridge and middle OOP. Your choice which way to go.

as for the blending, not sure it really makes a difference, but blending the OOP pickup into the mix would probably work better than blending the in-phase pickup into the mix, given that the SC in the middle will differ from either HB.

But the real question mark with OOP comes when you start splitting the HBs into single coil operation, as it can make a difference then which coil is being split (in order to maximize hum-cancellation when in SC mode)

[gr8fulpickr]

Yeah, you are right about simplifying the battery thing. It's not really needed, just nice to have if it's easy.

On the OOP, this is what I was told:

"Worth bearing in mind that reversing the phase of the neck pickup would create reverse phase tones in position 3, 4 & 9. It would also have the effect of switching the split coil to the outer coil position in 9 & 10."

I really only care about getting the humbuckers OOP since I love that tone. I guess the others might yield something interesting, but not really anything I'm chasing.

Does this stuff all seem doable? Anything else you think is pointless?

[newey]

Electrically, it all seems doable. It is going to be woefully complex. You can virtually guarantee it won't work properly the first time you wire it, plan on spending double that amount of time troubleshooting it. Murphy's Law applies here big time.

My concern would be fitment. Once you have all the components in hand, I suggest making a cardboard template of the control cavity so you can test-fit things. Actually, make several templates, things will probably need to be moved around several times. Bear in mind that it's not only a question of fitting the switches and pots, they each have to have wires running to and from them. Wires take up space, and wires connecting to things nearby need to have a certain amount of radius where they bend. So you need to allow for extra space around components for the wiring.

This may be where your wish list runs into reality. It does no good to have this wonderful schematic diagram drawn up if it won't fit into the guitar IRL.

Can't tell from your photo whether this is going to have a trem bridge or not, or whether the cavities have already been routed or not. I mention that only because, when adding active electronics to a Strat-type guitar, the easy way is to lose the trem for a hardtail bridge, and use the trem spring cavity for the preamp and battery. If the guitar is already routed that way, you might consider that if you don't use the whammy much.

If the cavity or cavities have not been routed yet, plan to go big, but also bear in mind structural integrity.

[sumgai]

Jun 16, 2020 17:55:47 GMT -5 gr8fulpickr said:

Jun 16, 2020 17:27:10 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Even if you were to PM one of us to share said diagrams, that'd be a breach of your agreement with Freeway. We don't want to put anyone into that kind of position, it makes for hard feelings all around. (Asking Freeway for permission to share with us won't work, 'cause it means that the diagrams are as good as public the moment they are posted.)

Yeah, I hear ya. That's why I was primarily hoping someone here could point me to a reputable tech who could help me with the schematic.

The problem here is, revealing proprietary information of this sort to any technician, public or private, is a violation of your promise to Freeway.  But it's your life, I/we won't nag you any further on this topic.  

Try talking to Freeway again, and see if you can persuade them to speed up the "Official Release" of this thing.  I have to admit to a fair-sized curiosity.




sumgai

[ashcatlt]

It requires both poles of a DPDT to affect true bypass of the preamp, so you need a third to turn off the battery. BUT the reason no pedal in the world does that is because it’s pretty likely to make a pop as the switch is flipped. Might not happen every time, but in my experience is likely to happen at the exact wrong time. So you need then a 3P3T toggle. If it was me, I’d put the bypassed but still powered position in the middle, but also I just wouldn’t trust it.

Now I think newey said “switched jack”, but most guitars actually just use a TRS “stereo jack” to connect the bottom of the battery when the TS plug is inserted. Not long ago I posted a video of how you can “phantom power” such a guitar from a wallwart and a custom cable. Then there’s no battery to worry about to begin with. Then again, you’ve already got 3 jacks and presumably three cables hanging off your guitar, so why not just add a fourth for power?

[gr8fulpickr]

Jun 18, 2020 5:43:08 GMT -5 newey said:

Electrically, it all seems doable. It is going to be woefully complex. You can virtually guarantee it won't work properly the first time you wire it, plan on spending double that amount of time troubleshooting it. Murphy's Law applies here big time.

My concern would be fitment. Once you have all the components in hand, I suggest making a cardboard template of the control cavity so you can test-fit things. Actually, make several templates, things will probably need to be moved around several times. Bear in mind that it's not only a question of fitting the switches and pots, they each have to have wires running to and from them. Wires take up space, and wires connecting to things nearby need to have a certain amount of radius where they bend. So you need to allow for extra space around components for the wiring.

This may be where your wish list runs into reality. It does no good to have this wonderful schematic diagram drawn up if it won't fit into the guitar IRL.

Can't tell from your photo whether this is going to have a trem bridge or not, or whether the cavities have already been routed or not. I mention that only because, when adding active electronics to a Strat-type guitar, the easy way is to lose the trem for a hardtail bridge, and use the trem spring cavity for the preamp and battery. If the guitar is already routed that way, you might consider that if you don't use the whammy much.

If the cavity or cavities have not been routed yet, plan to go big, but also bear in mind structural integrity.


No trem and the cavities have not been cut. Not sure if you can tell from the picture I posted, but I had the body enlarged to allow plenty of room for the electronics. So hopefully there is plenty of room to do what I'm wanting to do with affecting structural integrity.

I think I've found a guy with some expertise in what I'm trying to do, so finger's crossed that I can get this nailed down. He's close to my builder too, so if worse comes to worse he could wire it up too.

[gr8fulpickr]

Jun 18, 2020 10:25:54 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Jun 16, 2020 17:55:47 GMT -5 gr8fulpickr said:

Yeah, I hear ya. That's why I was primarily hoping someone here could point me to a reputable tech who could help me with the schematic.

The problem here is, revealing proprietary information of this sort to any technician, public or private, is a violation of your promise to Freeway.  But it's your life, I/we won't nag you any further on this topic.  

Try talking to Freeway again, and see if you can persuade them to speed up the "Official Release" of this thing.  I have to admit to a fair-sized curiosity.

He knows I'm revealing the info to my technician. The tech was copied on most of my communications. He just asked not to post the documentation publicly.

[sumgai]

Jun 18, 2020 14:31:33 GMT -5 gr8fulpickr said:

Jun 18, 2020 10:25:54 GMT -5 sumgai said:

The problem here is, revealing proprietary information of this sort to any technician, public or private, is a violation of your promise to Freeway.  But it's your life, I/we won't nag you any further on this topic.  

Try talking to Freeway again, and see if you can persuade them to speed up the "Official Release" of this thing.  I have to admit to a fair-sized curiosity.

He knows I'm revealing the info to my technician. The tech was copied on most of my communications. He just asked not to post the documentation publicly.

I'm saddened that you didn't tell us that in the OP, 'cause you could've picked any one of us "core members" (meaning not just Staff) and PMed him/her with the details. All of us here understand things like trade secrets, copyrights, and all that jizz-jazz, so I'm confident that anybody you picked would've not breathed a word about it until Freeway had given everyone the green light. (In fact, you still could, if you feel like a "backstop" would be nice.)

Sorry that I've zoomed in on this one particular facet of your original post, but newey and ashcatlt seem to have you covered on the rest of your questions. Hope it all works out for you the way you've envisioned it!







sumgai

[gr8fulpickr]

Jun 18, 2020 15:00:25 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Jun 18, 2020 14:31:33 GMT -5 gr8fulpickr said:

He knows I'm revealing the info to my technician. The tech was copied on most of my communications. He just asked not to post the documentation publicly.

I'm saddened that you didn't tell us that in the OP, 'cause you could've picked any one of us "core members" (meaning not just Staff) and PMed him/her with the details. All of us here understand things like trade secrets, copyrights, and all that jizz-jazz, so I'm confident that anybody you picked would've not breathed a word about it until Freeway had given everyone the green light. (In fact, you still could, if you feel like a "backstop" would be nice.)

Sorry that I've zoomed in on this one particular facet of your original post, but newey and ashcatlt seem to have you covered on the rest of your questions. Hope it all works out for you the way you've envisioned it!






Apologies for the confusion. I thought it was clear from my initial post that I was primarily looking for a qualified & reputable tech suggestion for getting the diagram done. I just can't post the tech info publicly. 

[sumgai]

'pickr,


No apologies necessary, I focused solely on that "don't disclose publicly" part, and became blind to the rest of what you said. My bad, not yours.

I stand by what I offered earlier. If I were you, I'd PM either reTrEaD or Yogi B and ask them if they'd like to handle such a thing. But that's just me, your mileage may vary.




sumgai

[gr8fulpickr]

Jun 18, 2020 22:13:31 GMT -5 sumgai said:

'pickr,


No apologies necessary, I focused solely on that "don't disclose publicly" part, and became blind to the rest of what you said. My bad, not yours.

I stand by what I offered earlier. If I were you, I'd PM either reTrEaD or Yogi B and ask them if they'd like to handle such a thing. But that's just me, your mileage may vary.




sumgai

Will do!!!



edit 6/19/2020 by thetragichero: moved your comment outside of the quote tags as you're not quoting yourself and it makes it hard to distinguish what you're saying when it's lumped in with another poster's text

[sumgai]

Jun 19, 2020 10:05:33 GMT -5 gr8fulpickr said:

Jun 18, 2020 22:13:31 GMT -5 sumgai said:

'pickr,


No apologies necessary, I focused solely on that "don't disclose publicly" part, and became blind to the rest of what you said. My bad, not yours.

I stand by what I offered earlier. If I were you, I'd PM either reTrEaD or Yogi B and ask them if they'd like to handle such a thing. But that's just me, your mileage may vary.




sumgai

Will do!!!



edit 6/19/2020 by thetragichero: moved your comment outside of the quote tags as you're not quoting yourself and it makes it hard to distinguish what you're saying when it's lumped in with another poster's text

'pickr,

You'll note that I've done that "to you" a couple of times above as well. So here's the fix: At the bottom-left of the textarea in your Reply, you'll find two buttons that look like tabs. One says Preview, the other says BBCode. Select BBCode, and the screen no long looks nice, but it will allow you to place the cursor after the ending [/quote] tag.  Once you start typing your reply, you can select Preview and go back to the nice looking screen - you need not finish your message before doing so.  Now your replies will look more orderly.

For those playing along at home, in your Profile there is a setting for making the BBCode tab/button your permanent setting.  But don't worry, the Preview tab/button is still present, it's just no longer your default. 

HTH



sumgai