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Post by Yogi B on Jul 9, 2020 0:37:05 GMT -5
Those are my concerns. If that 4.24 reading is accurate, it suggests only one coil is active in that setting, when 2 coils should be active. This suggests a short at your phase switch (since flipping the phase switch is what makes the difference.) I agree with this one, but the tap test column does list two coils active -- that's what we would want but not what the resistance value seems to suggest. Your other concern about both south coils is unfounded. That behaviour is intentional (two like coils out of phase are hum-cancelling), the phase switch only swaps the selected coil on the neck pickup. I agree, the tap test isn't concerned with magnetic polarity -- that's the point of the other ("pull-off") test -- so, labelling the coils as slug & screw would've been clearer. It does if the humbuckers are out of phase with themselves, i.e. the wires of each one of either the north or south coils are reversed and based on the hum-cancellation results I believe that this is the case. What confuses me is: reversing either the black & white or red & green wire pairs should be the fix if the humbuckers currently have their north coils out of phase with their south coils -- but as that is mostly equivalent to the original wiring (either being 'upside down' or 'upside down and inside-out' which would only make a difference to which coil was selected when split) and it was reported that the original wiring also suffered from a lack of full-humbucker tones, we therefore know that that isn't the required fix. (Though I'm unclear on whether the original tonal issue was just that the humbuckers were split when they shouldn't have been, or whether they were actually OOP with themselves.)
I did have the thought that maybe one of the pickups has its magnet flipped (e.g. one pickup has the 'standard' north slug coil & south screw coil and the other has reversed south slug coil & north screw coil) as I know PRSes like to do the inner/outer coil thing -- however based on the hum-cancellation results I don't think this the case, but I'm not certain. thedoc735 could you confirm the magnetic polarity of the coils? If you don't have access to an obvious way to test this such as another (permanent) magnet a quick way to test this is placing the humbuckers together face-to-face: screw-to-screw and slug-to-slug should cause them to repel; whereas rotating either pickup to give slug-to-screw and screw-to-slug should cause them to attract. Actual north/south isn't important here, we just need to know which coils have the same polarity.
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 9, 2020 2:16:50 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 9, 2020 2:47:55 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by newey on Jul 9, 2020 4:54:19 GMT -5
Now that You have confirmed that you did the tap test to confirm which coils are active, then YogiB is right, we have the correct coils active. The resistance reading there is anomalous. That's why I suggested repeating that reading to be sure it was 4.24 and not 2-something.
If YogiB is right, and PRS flips the magnet in one of this set of HBs, that could explain the lack of a "true HB" sound. I don't know of any manufacturer that does that, but if they do . . . But, if so, I would think that information would be given, in some boldface type, with the pickups, and that the rabid community of PRS freaks on the web would have repeatedly mentioned that fact. But, as Yogi points ourt, PRS does do the inner/outer coil thing, so maybe?
However, this would not explain why, with both pickups selected and the coils not split (i.e., both full HBs active), you are hearing hum with the phase switch flipped one way and no hum the other. Both HBs together should be hum-cancelling regardless of the phase switch setting.
Yogi's suggestion to place the coils of the 2 HBs face-to-face is the easy way to check magnetic polarity if the pickups were out of the guitar- not so easy if they have to be dismounted, and perhaps disconnected (if the wires aren't long enough for one to reach the other). Redoing the pull-off test would, I think, be easier given that this is all assembled and wired up. The graphs of the pull off test look OK for the bridge, but there's too much noise on the neck readings to tell much. As was suggested, lay the blade of the screwdriver on the pickup and let it sit for a few seconds for the reading to "settle" before (quickly) pulling the screwdriver away. You may have to remove a string to get it out of the way and give yourself enough room to work.
If testing confirms that the magnets are the same for both HBs, then I can't explain why you are having the results you are getting. No simple wiring fault would explain the lack of a full HB sound, given that the other settings seem to work. I had thought perhaps one of the HB coils was shorted or otherwise faulty, but your resistance readings would show it if that were the case, and they don't.
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 9, 2020 5:54:12 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 9, 2020 6:13:39 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 9, 2020 8:19:09 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 9, 2020 9:15:11 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 9, 2020 10:44:30 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 9, 2020 11:34:06 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 9, 2020 17:05:22 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by sumgai on Jul 9, 2020 22:10:12 GMT -5
doc OK, I've watched this go on long enough, time for me to 'meddle'. (And wouldn't you know, just when my can of "civility" has done run dry. I hate it when that happens.) First, newey is fond of quoting two of ChrisK's famous dictums: "Always test a component before using it", and "Always take notes". You seem to have a handle on the second part, but the first? I'm not so sure. For the lasts 40 postings, I've seen you go back and forth with the big-brains of this outfit, and not once have I seen you confess an answer to the most basic question - do you know for an absolute certainty that the pickup in question works like it says on the tin? When it comes to pickups in particular, "testing before using" doesn't stop with just using a meter to check the DC resistance, it also means that you should know what happens when you connect the pickup, all by itself, to the amp (via a known good cable, of course). Even if a meter says it's right on the money specs-wise, your ear is the final arbiter of what's good, and what falls by the wayside. As far as I'm concerned, until you unhook everything else and test just that pickup, you're spinning your wheels. If you've broken the serial link between the two coils, put it back together as the manufacturer intended. At this point, we don't care about individual coils because your complaint is about the Hb not sounding "full", blah blah, woof woof, so on and so forth. Report back with your results, please. HTH sumgai
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 10, 2020 13:29:23 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 10, 2020 13:35:29 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 10, 2020 15:32:31 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by sumgai on Jul 10, 2020 18:03:47 GMT -5
'doc, OK, you've proven the point, testing the pups shows they work, 'nuff said. As to why no one else asked you this, I can see, after a more thorough review, that I missed the fact that the pups did work correctly (as in, they sounded great) at one point in time, before you wanted to/did add the phase reverse switch.... that's my fault, and I apologize. Also for the 'lack of civility', but I did warn you. When it comes to time, do notice that I've not been quite so active here in The NutzHouse lately. My usual excuse is that the wife's Honey-Do list is so long that when she passes on, Daughter Dearest will inherit it, and I'll still be working it off when I finally pluck my last string. But once in awhile, I sneak out and spend some quality time here, and I might actually be of some assistance, who knows.... In the meantime, keep in mind that no matter if you are a raw rookie or a 50 year veteran of the Guitar Wars, bleepin' near nothing is easy to solve over the internet. I'm only mildly surprised that this has gone on for a page and a half - in our 15 years of existence so far, we've had a few "problem children" that have run to 5 and 6 pages. Trust me, if you stick with it/us, we'll get it solved eventually. HTH sumgai
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 10, 2020 20:16:55 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by newey on Jul 11, 2020 7:33:33 GMT -5
doc-
Sorry to have been away for a few days. I did not mean to leave you hanging on this.
First of all, that one resistance reading is anomalous, but if you have tested that the correct coils (i.e, one from each pickup) are active in that setting, I have no explanation for that result.
I also cannot explain, as I said earlier, why flipping the phase switch should change the hum when both HBs are selected.
I am also not following what your latest diagram, with the green line on the phase switch, is for.
I was also going to suggest testing the pickups, as sumgai suggested, since no other explanation was apparent. But now we can check that off the list as well.
Stab in the dark here: When you flip the phase switch, with both HBs active, does it sound OOP? Likewise when set to 2 single coils via the coil split switch? And, did you test each of the switches before installing them? My thinking is that a partial fault in the coil split switch might explain both the anomalous resistance reading as well as the lack of a full HB sound, but this is admittedly the longest of longshots, extremely unlikely.
To answer your question about why manufacturers publish data on coil polarity and screw vs. slug, I think we covered this before. But there are certain wiring schemes where it does matter, particularly if the individual coils of the HB are wound differently or where someone wants to split to specific coils, inner coils vs. outer, etc. In your case, the HB coils are the same (as proven by your resistance readings) and you are only concerned with splitting the coils, not with which coil it is which is being split- again, we want two opposite coils for hum cancelling, but in your scheme we are not concerned with which is which, so long as we get one of each.
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Post by Yogi B on Jul 11, 2020 15:39:27 GMT -5
As for me, over the last few days I've been busy typing up the following. I am very confused and don't have a clear idea of: polarity/magnetism/ north/south/start/finish, many say they don't matter? i.e. it's all arbitrary! Arbitrary isn't the same as unimportant. Imagine the laws of an autocratic nation, they may be entirely arbitrary, based solely upon the whims of a tyrant, but that doesn't mean that they are any less important to the citizens whose lives are impacted. Another more relevant example might be that of electrical current where conventional current flow, from positive to negative, flows opposite to the actual (negatively charged) electrons. Both methods of labelling direction can be justified, neither is wrong or right, and both will give the same results as long as that choice is consistently accounted for. Below is my attempt to explain what the various pairings are, how relate to each other, and why the choice of which is which is mostly arbitrary. Hopefully this helps to clear things up. First I'll begin with a quick statement of the basic 'rules' that must be followed to achieve hum cancellation. There is basically one 'golden rule': the two coils must be electrically out of phase. This means that hum induced into the coils from an external source will cancel out. However, because we don't normally want the output of the strings to also be out of phase, we need a way to force the change in magnetic field (caused by the string's vibration) to be different for each coil. This gives rise to the 'silver rule' (as it were), that the section of string above the coils must be magnetised in opposite directions, i.e. the coils must have opposite magnetic polarity. Now, on to the various pairings: - Firstly "north & south": you'll note that the above rules don't say anything about north or south, just about opposite magnetic polarity, and really that is all that matters. For example, via the test of placing your pickups face to face you have confirmed that both the screw coils are the same magnetic polarity (let's call this polarity A) and that the slug coils are both the other polarity (which we'll call polarity B). We don't need any more information about the magnetic polarities than that, A could be north or it could be south, it doesn't matter so long as B is the opposite.
As for ways that absolute north & south can be ambiguous: firstly the north end of a compass is itself a north magnetic pole (Earth's magnetic north pole, in the Arctic, is actually (currently) a south pole), so a compass pointing north at the face of a pickup means that coil has a south pole facing upwards (e.g. the opposite of what is presented in this Planet-Z article) ; secondly, though this is more relevant to pickups with permanent magnets at the core of the coil such as AlNiCo single coils or Firebird pickups, magnetic polarity without mention of which face of the coil it was measured isn't concrete -- we should not simply assume it is the top face. As a matter of interest, in pickups with horizontal magnets (e.g. most humbuckers & P90s), the top and bottom of the steel polepieces actually have the same polarity.
- The next pairing "start & finish", are probably the least ambiguous as they refer to the winding process -- which wire was present at the start of the winding (therefore connected to the innermost turns of the coil), and which wire became the other end of the coil once the winding was finished (therefore connected to the outermost turns).
- What that doesn't tell you is which way the coils were actually wound, so that introduces another pair, that of "clockwise & counter-clockwise", which are more ambiguous. At this point you might be wondering what I'm talking about and gesticulating towards an analogue clock hanging on a wall, saying "clockwise is obvious" -- "Oh, yeah," I say "have you tried talking to the clock to get it's opinion?". Facetiousness aside, from the point of view of a clock face, for example standing on the inside of a clock tower, the hands move counter-clockwise.
The clockwise/counter-clockwise orientation directly relates to the first of our above rules, that hum-cancellation requires two coils electrically out-of-phase -- in other words: one clockwise coil and one counter-clockwise coil. However, as far as I know, most major humbucker manufacturers actually wind their pickups with both coils in the same direction (either both clockwise or both counter-clockwise) and simply wire one of the coils backwards to achieve a 'reverse wound' coil. (By traversing a normally clockwise path in the reverse direction you must be travelling in a counter-clockwise direction.) Pickups that are literally wound in a reverse direction (and aren't just wired backwards) are more common within single coil sets, e.g. Strat middle pickups, though it is still not done universally.
(Again, as with magnetic polarity, we tend to think in terms of looking directly at the front face of a guitar, thus looking at the top face of pickups, so usually define the clockwise direction from that perspective. As such that is the orientation I shall use below.)
At this point we know enough to combine the two rules of (in-phase) humbucking together, this gives rise to the term reverse-wound-reverse-polarity (RWRP), for describing a coil that has opposite winding direction and magnetic polarity, or a pairing a normal coil and a RWRP coil. As discussed above the 'reverse-wound' is actually a bit of a misnomer as it might mean 'normal-wound-but-reverse-wired'. It is also worth mentioning that, there is no absolute definition of what is 'normal' and 'reverse': one person's 'normal' might be RWRP with respect to someone else's 'normal'; or their 'normal' might be just one of the two (e.g. reverse-wound but not reverse-polarity). Neither are right or wrong, as long as a manufacturer is consistent with their own conventions and people stick to one brand of pickups per guitar -- problems usually only occur when the pickups of two or more manufacturers who use differing conventions are used together in the same guitar.
- Finally I'll move onto the last pairing "plus & minus" or "positive & negative", reTrEaD's earlier post state "nearly all" manufacturers label the wire which has the greater voltage as a string moves towards the pickup. As I've previously stated this isn't something I've previously considered, and it does leave me wondering how much of that is down to the manufacturers versus the assumptions of whomever compiled the colour code charts -- it should be noted that in the chart you posted, all of the pickups that make reference to start and finish suggest that the all the manufactures listed adhere to the 'towards = positive' rule and all of them wind their coils clockwise -- I find this hard to believe. (Keep reading for an example of how you can work this out.)
Another reason I'm sceptical is that, for a good proportion of the brands on that list, I'm not aware that the information regarding the actual start & finish and winding direction is readily available thus the stated designations may be little more than a guess, just to maintain an apparent sense of consistency.
Lets look at two possible wirings: | Hot | Series Link | Ground |
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#1 | North-Start | North-Finish | South-Finish | South-Start |
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#2 | North-Finish | North-Start | South-Start | South-Finish |
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The wiring difference between #1 & #2 is that I've swapped the start & finish of each coil -- (assuming both coils are wound in the same direction) then both wirings produce the same full humbucker tone, additionally both will even split to the same coil selections when the series-link is shorted either to hot or to ground. So what is the actual difference? Well, one observes the 'towards = positive' rule, while the other does not -- without knowing the winding direction of the coils we can't know which. But will these actually sound any different? Nope.
(There is a belief in audiophile circles that preserving "absolute phase" produces a 'better' or 'truer' sound. However, for electric guitar with complex phase relations between multiple strings and multiple pickups, in addition to the possibility that switching amp channels or activating a stompbox may invert the signal polarity being delivered to your amp's loudspeaker, this begins to sound like twaddle, that is if it didn't already.)
All of the above makes it difficult to completely take a charts notions of north & south, start & finish, or positive & negative at face value without evidence that all of these have been accurately measured and not just assumed. As promised earlier, following is an example of determining the winding direction as per one of colour-codes stated in the charts you posted (I've chosen Seymour Duncan), with the aim to put all this information together, in addition to a couple of rules from physics, to illustrate how they relate to each other. Starting with the north coil, this magnetises and attracts a portion of the steel string -- as the string is attracted we know that this portion of the string must have south polarity (as opposite poles attract). When this string is plucked, and during its motion moves towards the pickup, a current is induced in the pickup coil. The direction of this current must, by Lenz's law, oppose the change in flux. In other words this current must flow in a the direction that would repel the approaching south pole (the string), i.e. must create an upwards facing south pole (as like poles repel). Therefore, by Ampère's right-hand rule, the current must flow clockwise. Remembering that this is conventional current that flows from positive to negative and combining this with the assumption that the wire labelled as positive does so when the string moves towards it, then the current flowing in the coil from the positive (black) north-start wire to the negative (white) north-finish wire must be in a clockwise direction and thus the coil is wound in a clockwise direction.
Now for the south coil, this magnetises an adjacent portion of the string such that it has north polarity. When this moves towards the coil the induced current must create an opposing north pole, therefore the induced current flowing from the positive (red) south-finish wire to the negative (green) south-start wire must be in a counter-clockwise direction -- note, as we are going from finish to start we are travelling in the opposite direction to how the coil was actually wound (from start to finish), thus this coil is actually wound in the same direction as the north coil, both are clockwise. I know that all of that is a lot to take in, but I do hope that it helps to demystify things.
Now that I've subjected you to that essay, back to actually trying to solve your wiring issues. Right, anyway, never mind; I have connected both pickups individually (in the guitar) to the output jack (nothing else). I am please to say that they both sound like full/rich humbuckers through my laptop/headphones, with the manufactures serial link re-instated. And they both check out on the multimeter too. I think this is where I'd go forwards from, putting the humbuckers back into the circuit with the original series link reinstated -- we know it works without any of the switching so if there is a problem then we know it is with the switch wiring and not with how the individual coils of the pickups are connected. I'd then redo the tap testing & resistance measurements. Hopefully this should fix the thin sound and lack of hum-cancelling in the positions where they shouldn't be, but if it doesn't then we can be more sure that this is due to some unwanted short, rather than the two individual coils of each humbucker being out of phase with each other. I also cannot explain, as I said earlier, why flipping the phase switch should change the hum when both HBs are selected. I think that tallies with the individual coils of the humbucker being OOP: Let's say the bridge north coil produces 1 unit of hum, normally the bridge south coil would produce -1 unit of hum, but if wired out of phase, with both coils active the hum adds rather than being cancelled. If the coils of the neck pickup are wired the same way, the humbuckers each produce 2 units of hum, of the same polarity. With the phase switch down (pickups in phase) the hum also remains in phase and doesn't cancel; flipping the phase switch puts the pickups and therefore the hum they produce out-of-phase, so we get hum-cancellation. As above this is why I think the best course of action at this point is returning to the manufacturers original coil wiring, which we now know to be free of intra-pickup phase issues, and working forwards from there. Yeah, that took me a while to figure out what was being said. The 'wiring equation' is somewhat confusing too. But I think I get it now, the green line represents some incorrect internal switch connection that was thought to be occurring, based on the idea that the two poles of the DPDT should be fully independent. thedoc735 then realised that this was in fact due to the external jumper between the upper-left and lower-right terminals and the switch connecting that jumper to the centre-left terminal, and not due to a faulty switch.
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 11, 2020 22:18:42 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 11, 2020 23:12:19 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by newey on Jul 12, 2020 9:19:14 GMT -5
10. OK - but I would like it to be the 'screws' on the neck, and the slugs on the bridge. I don't beleive you had mentioned this preference before, but OK. Your testing of the coils face-to-face, as YogiB suggested, shows that PRS didn't flip the magnets on one HB (because both screw coils repel each other. Your diagram shows the coils being split that way, so no need to change anything there. I was not suspecting an intermittent fault, but a partial short, meaning some very low level of resistance between two points that should be disconnected entirely at a given switch position. IOW, when testing a switch, positions which as connected should show, if not zero resistance, then at most a few Ohms. Disconnected lugs should read as "over limit" or "out of range" (meaning essentially infinite resistance)depending on the meter. If those are the results you got, then the switch checks out. If, on the other hand, instead of "over limit" you got a very high resistance reading, it would indicate a problem. But if you tested it already, we can cross that off the list. Wiring the red to "hot" and the black to "ground" will only change which coil is selected by the coil cut switch. It won't affect the phasing. YogiB's suggestion that one coil of one of the HBs is OOP is a possible explanation but your face-to-face coil testing showed that the polarity of the HB coils is right, and I find it hard to believe that PRS would change the wiring colors of one coil of a set. SO, frankly, I'm all out of ideas here. Yogi has you essentially rewiring the guitar, component-by-component, until the fault is found. That would be my only suggestion as well. Your problem is not with either the Guitar Electronics diagram, nor with your revision of it to show the PRS wire colors. All of that checks out. That leaves only a wiring issue or a component fault. We have had you test for both of those, and so far everything checks out. But something is still anomalous, so a step-wise approach to rewiring this seems like the only alternative at this point. Per YogiB: Yes, step 2.
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Post by Yogi B on Jul 12, 2020 22:57:47 GMT -5
Whoopsie-daisy! 🤦♂️ Either you're not doing a very good job at hiding your ability to time-travel, or I messed up the timestamps on those quotes.
I don't know if you wanted me to connect both HB pickups straight to the output socket somehow? I didn't, and that shouldn't be necessary. Yes, that's what I mean. So I am right to presume that this what you had right at the beginning of the thread? If so, then I'd still expect the same issues mentioned in that post, but even if that is the case it should still make debugging easier. If you are really lucky the problems might have solved themselves: sometimes swapping the wiring about, and then back to what should've worked in the first place, means that you somehow fix whatever the original problem was without even realising. It's kinda bittersweet though, because you don't get to learn exactly what was wrong, and thus can't look out for it next time. Wiring the red to "hot" and the black to "ground" will only change which coil is selected by the coil cut switch. It won't affect the phasing. Well it'll affect absolute phasing (and swapping only one pair would affect the phasing between the humbuckers), but I agree that swapping both pairs, as per the diagram, will change the coil selections and won't make a noticeable difference to phasing.What I meant was that thedoc735 's alternate coil wiring had both coils of each humbucker OOP: bridge-north OOP with bridge-south and neck-north OOP with neck-south.
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 13, 2020 15:16:52 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 13, 2020 15:30:46 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 13, 2020 16:43:09 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by Yogi B on Jul 13, 2020 17:44:28 GMT -5
I just wanted to point out that in the PRS factory wiring diagram the black is ground and the red is hot; but in the guitar electronics diagram the black is HOT and the red is ground - should I try that next OR go back to the pickup wire configuration as it was supplied by PRS? I may have agreed with newey that that swap would change which coils were selected when split, but I didn't actually think about which way was which... that's my bad. Given which wires are connected to which coil: the current proven pairings: i.e. (black/white - north/slugs) - (green/red - south/screws) your preference for which coils are used: I would like it to be the 'screws' on the neck, and the slugs on the bridge. and looking at the diagram where the bridge series link is shorted to hot and the neck series link is shorted to ground, then you'd want it to be the GuitarElectronics way around.[EDIT]Sorry! No, I mean PRS, I was looking at the diagram you overlaid with the colours thinking that was PRS and that we need the opposite. I should have been explicit: Red=Hot, Black=Ground. [/EDIT]
Ideally, as reTrEaD mentioned way back in the first reply, we wouldn't have a permanently connected series link, and we could then disconnect the unused coil rather than shorting it, but though this could be done with the bridge pickup (albeit with a different coil wiring arrangement), it's not obvious how you could do this with the neck pickup while maintaining the auto-coil-swap when split and out of phase. But arguably the bridge is the one that is most important to change because the unused coil is both shorted and hanging from hot. Note that all this is about complying with the 'best practices' around here as a method to potentially reduce noise and offer a very small potential increase in sustain and treble response, it won't affect functionality in any way. I've been more focused on getting the thing working, more than best practices, but really I should let you make that choice -- rather than having you getting it to work then jumping in with "well actually, the best way to wire it would be...".
So, reTrEaD can you see a way to avoid shunting the unused neck coil or should I just draw up the 'bridge-is-only-shunt-free' version?
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 13, 2020 18:45:55 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 13, 2020 18:58:50 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 13, 2020 19:04:30 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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