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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 13, 2020 19:12:36 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by Yogi B on Jul 13, 2020 23:34:46 GMT -5
I'm quoting myself to bring attention to this edit: looking at the diagram where the bridge series link is shorted to hot and the neck series link is shorted to ground, then you'd want it to be the GuitarElectronics way around.[EDIT]Sorry! No, I mean PRS, I was looking at the diagram you overlaid with the colours thinking that was PRS and that we need the opposite. I should have been explicit: Red=Hot, Black=Ground. [/EDIT]
I'd like the 'screws' coil on the neck, and the slugs coil on the bridge I forgot note this last time, but that's presumably with the phase switch set to in-phase. (In the out-of-phase position you'll get the other neck coil, i.e. both pickups will split to the slug coils.) here is an example of the circuit without a permanent bridge series link: Actually it isn't, it still has a permanent series link in the form of the bridge's red & black wires which are wired together. True it isn't the original green & white link, but I meant that any bridge series link would not be connected in both switch positions. (i.e. it would only be connected when needed in the full HB position, but disconnected in the split position.) However that diagram is really close, all you need to do is move the bridge's red wire up to the top-left terminal of the coil split switch, keeping the black wire where it is. That way, in series mode you still have the red & black series link connected via the switch, but in the split mode only the black wire gets grounded, thus avoiding both ends of the south coil (red & green) being connected together (because both would be grounded). I'd actually finished redrawing it before I realised you almost had it with that last diagram, I'm doing sooo well today 🙃. But I might as well post my version anyway:
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Post by reTrEaD on Jul 14, 2020 0:25:01 GMT -5
So, reTrEaD can you see a way to avoid shunting the unused neck coil or should I just draw up the 'bridge-is-only-shunt-free' version? To avoid shunting coils, I connect the pole of the switch to ground and connect the end of the series string to one throw and the series link to the other throw. This is how I would wire it, were it my guitar (using SD color codes), if I was going to use a traditional orientation of the screw coils and slug coils (and not flip one of the magnets). I'd split the Neck to the Screw coil and the Bridge to the Slug coil (when it was in-phase). I prefer using the slug coil of the Bridge pickup as it has considerably more fundamental (greater distance from the bridge). But when the phase of the Bridge is reversed, that gives me the screw coil of the bridge pickup. When out of phase, I think having less fundamental from the bridge is a good thing. That way it doesn't subtract so much of it from the Neck pickup. Of course if one prefers a totally thin and castrated sound when out of phase, this is not the way to get there.
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 15, 2020 2:18:05 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 15, 2020 3:25:10 GMT -5
deleted to avoid confusion, please go to post #65, thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 15, 2020 3:49:15 GMT -5
this is PRS pickup factory (OEM) configuration: this is PRS factory wiring (OEM) configuration: this is PRS pickup factory (OEM) configuration with the guitar electronics wiring diagram: I believe this is the way that Yogi B intended me to set it up? Correct me if I'm wrong! I have done the tapping & resistance tests again based on this configuration, these are the results: Screwdriver tapping test 15.07.20 Both pickups: Full HB’S: all pole pieces ON (24). Split: Neck – Screws ON/Bridge – Slugs ON. Neck Reverse Phase – Full HB: Screws/Slugs ON /Single Coil: Slugs ON. Phase reverse is very noticeable as HB or SC. Neck Pickup: Full HB: all 12 pole pieces ON. Split: Screws ON. Reverse Phase – Full HB: all 12 pole pieces ON /Single Coil: Slugs ON. Hum when split regardless of phase. Is that correct? (i.e. there is NO opposing coil to counteract the hum). Phase reverse is only subtle as either HB or SC. Is that correct?Bridge Pickup: Full HB: all 12 pole pieces ON. Split: Slugs ON. NO Reverse Phase, (by design). Hum when split regardless of phase. Is that correct? (i.e. there is NO opposing coil to counteract the hum). Not done any more pickup 'pull-off' tests up to now. But I could if you wish? In these diagrams using: hot/ground/series link 'terms of expression', I still don't know which wires are start/finish, north/south, positive/negative on the G&B/PRS pickups and how they would fit into this chart: (?)...Please get back to me on this, thank you!All seems well, except for the few questions I have 'above'.
I don't know what went wrong in the past except to say that it is conceivable I unwittingly got the green/red/black/white pairings mixed up as it is only 'soft wired' with these connectors (no soldering in the test phase!): ...I just discovered that 2 of the 8 I used are 'dodgy'! when using the JST RCY I didn't use the red insulator housings OR insulating tape and the metal contacts may have inadvertently touched somehow?
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 15, 2020 4:30:19 GMT -5
That suggests Red should be used for hot, White and Green should be tied together as the series link, and Black should be used for ground. But I really can't say for certain it's correct. Good call, that has made a considerable difference, nice rich full HB tone now!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 15, 2020 4:36:55 GMT -5
Generally and broadly speaking does 'hot' mean start/positive? And ground mean finish/negative?
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 15, 2020 4:42:53 GMT -5
So, reTrEaD can you see a way to avoid shunting the unused neck coil or should I just draw up the 'bridge-is-only-shunt-free' version? To avoid shunting coils, I connect the pole of the switch to ground and connect the end of the series string to one throw and the series link to the other throw. This is how I would wire it, were it my guitar (using SD color codes), if I was going to use a traditional orientation of the screw coils and slug coils (and not flip one of the magnets). I'd split the Neck to the Screw coil and the Bridge to the Slug coil (when it was in-phase). I prefer using the slug coil of the Bridge pickup as it has considerably more fundamental (greater distance from the bridge). But when the phase of the Bridge is reversed, that gives me the screw coil of the bridge pickup. When out of phase, I think having less fundamental from the bridge is a good thing. That way it doesn't subtract so much of it from the Neck pickup. Of course if one prefers a totally thin and castrated sound when out of phase, this is not the way to get there. I may try this out too! many thanks!
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Post by newey on Jul 15, 2020 7:17:55 GMT -5
In these diagrams using: hot/ground/series link 'terms of expression', I still don't know which wires are start/finish, north/south, positive/negative on the G&B/PRS pickups and how they would fit into this chart: First of all, if you have now found an actual PRS wire color chart, I don't know why you are posting DiMarzio and Seymour Duncan color charts. No more guesswork is needed, and your color chart is not the same as either DM or SD. The "series link" is simply to two wires which are joined together to form the series connection between the HB coils. In your case, it's green/white, but it might also be red/black if you were wiring the coils "inside out" (this is done to vary the coil being selected when splitting coils; your switching is different). "Positive" and "Negative" are fairly meaningless shorthand terms. The two words have meaning in the context of a DC circuit, but can be misleading when talking about an AC circuit like a guitar pickup/innards. These are particularly useless terms when one has a phase switch, since whether a wire is the "negative" or not depends on which way the switch is flipped. We use "positive" and "negative" as a convenience in designating the two sides of a guitar circuit, but they are not technically accurate, and can be misleading in some contexts. ChrisK used to say "hot" and "not hot", but that's really no better. "North" and "South", "Start" and "Finish" are of concern to us only when splitting coils to a particular coil or when insuring that two coils are in/out of phase with each other. Since one manufacturer's "North" may be another one's "South", and the same with "Start"/"Finish", the terms are of limited usefulness if the pickups one is using differ- that's where the testing comes in. Your latest resistance measurements now all make sense. I can't explain the hum issues, unless the source is in the temporary connectors you are using.
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Post by reTrEaD on Jul 15, 2020 10:57:35 GMT -5
this is PRS pickup factory (OEM) configuration: What is your source for this information?To the best of my knowledge, PRS never uses any color for hot or ground than White and Black (or the braided shield for ground in the two-wire plus ground wiring.) Many PRS models use three-wire plus ground wiring. And the magnet is flipped polarity is different between the Neck pickup and Bridge pickup. In their three-wire plus ground, Red is always the series link. White and Black are hot and ground but they are different between the Neck and Bridge pickups.
I was able to find this drawing from PRS, and it would appear four-wire plus ground is only found on the Bridge pickup of the Tremonti model. And there, the Green and Red are tied together as the series link.
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 15, 2020 11:13:43 GMT -5
I think this scenario is pretty close to what has actually happened!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 15, 2020 11:51:32 GMT -5
this is PRS pickup factory (OEM) configuration: What is your source for this information?To the best of my knowledge, PRS never uses any color for hot or ground than White and Black (or the braided shield for ground in the two-wire plus ground wiring.) Many PRS models use three-wire plus ground wiring. And the magnet is flipped polarity is different between the Neck pickup and Bridge pickup. In their three-wire plus ground, Red is always the series link. White and Black are hot and ground but they are different between the Neck and Bridge pickups.
I was able to find this drawing from PRS, and it would appear four-wire plus ground is only found on the Bridge pickup of the Tremonti model. And there, the Green and Red are tied together as the series link. Incorrect! Out of date info! ~ the PRS/G&B (Kor.) SP 85/15 ('S') B/T NU-Z has 4 cores + bare ground. I should know - I am looking at it! mine: similar from the internet: (the bare ground is heat shrunk together with the black, in this example),
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 15, 2020 12:36:44 GMT -5
Look there’s only two ways to connect an HB. Once you’ve figured out which pairs make a coil, you twist one wire from each together. Connect the free ends to an amp. Does it sound right? IF No, swap the wires on one of the coils. Is that better? Then that’s the right way. Now we can decide which of the free ends go where by comparing it to the other pickup, and it’s almost the same thing. There’s still only two ways to do it. Pick the one that sounds right.
Then the phase switch and choosing which coils to split to is easy.
It really looks to me from the pic in post 31 that the bridge coils are OoP with each other. Doesn’t make a lot of sense if it’s wired the same as the neck which seems right, but sometimes people goof.
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 15, 2020 12:43:55 GMT -5
the source is the original OEM factory PRS wiring which clearly shows the green/white series link, the red 'hot' contact & black to ground.
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 15, 2020 13:03:14 GMT -5
In these diagrams using: hot/ground/series link 'terms of expression', I still don't know which wires are start/finish, north/south, positive/negative on the G&B/PRS pickups and how they would fit into this chart: First of all, if you have now found an actual PRS wire color chart, I don't know why you are posting DiMarzio and Seymour Duncan color charts. No more guesswork is needed, and your color chart is not the same as either DM or SD. The "series link" is simply to two wires which are joined together to form the series connection between the HB coils. In your case, it's green/white, but it might also be red/black if you were wiring the coils "inside out" (this is done to vary the coil being selected when splitting coils; your switching is different). "Positive" and "Negative" are fairly meaningless shorthand terms. The two words have meaning in the context of a DC circuit, but can be misleading when talking about an AC circuit like a guitar pickup/innards. These are particularly useless terms when one has a phase switch, since whether a wire is the "negative" or not depends on which way the switch is flipped. We use "positive" and "negative" as a convenience in designating the two sides of a guitar circuit, but they are not technically accurate, and can be misleading in some contexts. ChrisK used to say "hot" and "not hot", but that's really no better. "North" and "South", "Start" and "Finish" are of concern to us only when splitting coils to a particular coil or when insuring that two coils are in/out of phase with each other. Since one manufacturer's "North" may be another one's "South", and the same with "Start"/"Finish", the terms are of limited usefulness if the pickups one is using differ- that's where the testing comes in. Your latest resistance measurements now all make sense. I can't explain the hum issues, unless the source is in the temporary connectors you are using. I don't have an actual colour chart but I have the original wiring that was in the guitar: which clearly shows the green/white series link, the red 'hot' contact & black to ground. I am posting DiMarzio and Seymour Duncan color charts in the hope that someone may add the correct information to the end of the chart for PRS pickups. "The "series link" is simply to two wires which are joined together to form the series connection between the HB coils.". Yes I know. "Positive" and "Negative" are fairly meaningless shorthand terms. The two words have meaning in the context of a DC circuit, but can be misleading when talking about an AC circuit like a guitar pickup/innards. These are particularly useless terms when one has a phase switch, since whether a wire is the "negative" or not depends on which way the switch is flipped.". Thanks for explaining that! "We use "positive" and "negative" as a convenience in designating the two sides of a guitar circuit, but they are not technically accurate, and can be misleading in some contexts." Thanks for explaining that! "North" and "South", "Start" and "Finish" are of concern to us only when splitting coils to a particular coil or when insuring that two coils are in/out of phase with each other. Since one manufacturer's "North" may be another one's "South", and the same with "Start"/"Finish", the terms are of limited usefulness if the pickups one is using differ- that's where the testing comes in." I recently specified: Neck/screws and bridge slugs for coil splitting? "Your latest resistance measurements now all make sense. I can't explain the hum issues, unless the source is in the temporary connectors you are using." Maybe the single coil on it's own has no opposing coil to cancel out the hum? i.e. one coil on one pickup has no counteracting coil to oppose the noise? Many thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 15, 2020 13:26:32 GMT -5
Look there’s only two ways to connect an HB. Once you’ve figured out which pairs make a coil, you twist one wire from each together. Connect the free ends to an amp. Does it sound right? IF No, swap the wires on one of the coils. Is that better? Then that’s the right way. Now we can decide which of the free ends go where by comparing it to the other pickup, and it’s almost the same thing. There’s still only two ways to do it. Pick the one that sounds right. Then the phase switch and choosing which coils to split to is easy. It really looks to me from the pic in post 31 that the bridge coils are OoP with each other. Doesn’t make a lot of sense if it’s wired the same as the neck which seems right, but sometimes people goof. 1. yes that is one way to do it - agreed. 2. agreed. 3. Noted! 4. Vague! 5. Post #31 has been super-ceded by post #65. many thanks!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 15, 2020 14:20:38 GMT -5
Yes they also do that - true! "BUT!" ~ Yogi B gave me a test to determine if this was the case for my pickups, I did the test for him and he said that the pickup(s) magnets are NOT flipped in my case. See post #30. I concurred with his findings!
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 15, 2020 14:37:54 GMT -5
Yeah. Have we got this far yet? Well, I was talking about the pull-off test pics, so kind of no. ( ) But if you're past that point, then great. I can't be bothered to read this whole thread. It's a nightmare of really long posts quoted into even longer posts and seems to be just going around in circles. It can't take this long to get what you want.
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 15, 2020 16:28:16 GMT -5
Yeah. Have we got this far yet? Well, I was talking about the pull-off test pics, so kind of no. ( ) But if you're past that point, then great. I can't be bothered to read this whole thread. It's a nightmare of really long posts quoted into even longer posts and seems to be just going around in circles. It can't take this long to get what you want. 4. I'm sorry I didn't understand your brief explanation which needs elaboration with more detail. 5. some contributors said that the pull off tests were inconclusive and needed to be repeated? If you can't be bothered to read the whole thread then there is little wonder that you consider it to be a nightmare! It's your choice? You don't have to read it or reply! The issue seems to be largely 'fixed' since post #65, but I believe I still had four outstanding questions in post #65, but instead of answering those questions, contributors have continued to 'babble on', but despite this I have continued to answer those remarks in gratitude for their help and advice offered.
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 15, 2020 16:33:25 GMT -5
Could future contributors please restrict their responses to the questions in post #65 in order to resolve those issues before we move forward any further - thank you for your kind attention!
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Post by sumgai on Jul 15, 2020 18:17:58 GMT -5
'doc,
I'd like a word with you, if you please. ........ sumgai Chief Cook & Bottle Washer
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 15, 2020 18:55:41 GMT -5
Doc, I'd like a word with you, if you please. sumgai Chief Cook & Bottle Washer Posts modified, I'm trying to keep this on track and focused. I'm simply seeking answers to my last four questions in post #65. The good people 'here' have helped me sort this out and I appreciate it! Sorry for anything that was inappropriate.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 16, 2020 2:47:30 GMT -5
'doc,
My "calling you out" is no longer either needful or appropriate, so I've modified my post to display only those words you quoted. Thank you.
sumgai
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 16, 2020 11:33:04 GMT -5
Neck Pickup:Hum when split regardless of phase. Is that correct? Yep. You answered your own question. Yes and for much the same reason. Flipping just one coil shouldn’t make any noticeable difference in the tone. In this case, though, it’s also selecting the other coil, so you will hear the subtle difference in coil construction and position along the string. Yes. Same as the first.
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 16, 2020 15:09:47 GMT -5
Neck Pickup:Hum when split regardless of phase. Is that correct? Yep. You answered your own question. Yes and for much the same reason. Flipping just one coil shouldn’t make any noticeable difference in the tone. In this case, though, it’s also selecting the other coil, so you will hear the subtle difference in coil construction and position along the string. Yes. Same as the first. many thanks, much appreciated, take care!
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 16, 2020 15:13:35 GMT -5
so. that just leaves the colour code conversion chart! Can anyone complete the empty PRS space? Cheers!
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Post by frets on Jul 16, 2020 17:30:17 GMT -5
I’ve not paid much attention to all that has happened in this thread. But for PRS G&B Pickups I have:
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Post by thedoc735 on Jul 16, 2020 21:54:37 GMT -5
I’ve not paid much attention to all that has happened in this thread. But for PRS G&B Pickups I have: Please say how you know this - thanks! I have this, which appears to work?
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Post by newey on Jul 17, 2020 7:09:49 GMT -5
I recently specified: Neck/screws and bridge slugs for coil splitting? Your tap tests confirm that this is what you have, unless you flip the phase switch. And, we know that the screw coil is red/white, slug coil is black/green- if it wasn't, you wouldn't be getting the coil split results indicated by your tap test. Previously, you had said that you were getting hum when both HBs were "on"(and not split), but that flipping the phase switch made the hum go away. I had said that I could not explain that. But as per your post #65, it appears that has now gone away as well, and that you are only getting hum when a single coil is selected. If so, as ashcatlt pointed out, that is as expected. So, just to clarify things here, I am assuming that all problems with your wiring are now solved, and that you are only questioning which coils are North vs. South? This knowledge is, as I have repeatedly pointed out, entirely irrelevant to your wiring. It can be ascertained with a toy compass, but as has been said, manufacturers vary as to which way they designate North vs. South anyway. It seems that the confusion as to wire colors between reTrEaD and you comes down to a difference between PRS's US-made guitars and pickups, and those used in its Korean-made guitars, which are the pickups you have.
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