A Simple Plan.. Humbucker and Single Coil Tele - Questions

[yellerdawg]

Noob to guitar wiring here.  

This forum looks like a friendly and helpful place and I am grateful for any advice / guidance.  

My goal - A guitar that has bridgey midrange humbucking crunch but can also bring in the full dynamic single coil neck sound.  Simple right?

The Journey

• I've looked over dozens of wiring schemes and am beginning to kinda understand what's going on
• I've learned that the bridge humbucker, neck single coil in a tele is a little unconventional.  but the pickup routes in my body say otherwise...
• I have a mostly baked wiring diagram
• Need help drawing the tone control wiring to support the push/pull tone control with the Q-Filter - see below

Parts

• Hardtail Bridge: Gotoh humbucker tele
  
• Bridge Pickup - Bill Lawrence L500L humbucker (4 wire)
• Neck Pickup - Bill Lawrence L280 single coil
  
• Bill Lawrence Q-Filter - very useful tone shaping filter
• Fender 5-position Superswitch 
• 500K Volume Pot
• Alpha 500K PushPull Tone Pot (not an audio taper) plus a few capacitors which look scary
  to me

Switch Positions
1. Bridge Humbucker 2. Bridge North Coil, 3. Bridge North + Neck, 4. Bridge Humbucker + Neck, 5. Neck


Questions / Help Needed

1. Superswitch Wiring ? Does my diagram look right for the positions?  the coil tapping is a mystery to me - but this is how the diagrams I find do it.
2. Tone Pot - I am shooting for using a 50's style tone wiring approach on the push side of the tone pot and the Q-filter wiring on the pull side of the pot
   .

NO IDEA how to wire in the tone so it does its tone thing on all the switch positions for both the push and the pull sides of the pot.


Look forward to learning how to do this.

[JohnH]

Hi yellerdawg and welcome to GN2. Nice graphics on your drawing!

I think your scheme will be fine and I'm sure we can help.

[newey]

Did the Q-filter come with a wiring diagram? Please post that so that we can assess your tone pot wiring and switching between the 2 modes. Everything else in the diagram looks OK.

[yellerdawg]

Thanks for the reply - much appreciated.  Good timing as today a friend of mine with soldering skills is going to help me wire up the guitar.

Three Updates

1. In my reading about tone pot wiring I came across this article on 50s, 60's, modern wiring schemes. Based on this I am going with the 50's approach. Would love feedback.
   
2. My friend and I updated the diagram to support our understanding of the 50's tone thang.
3. Here is the original Bill Lawrence Q-Filter drawing.

Our plan this afternoon is to wire up the 5 way superswitch first and see if that works as we think.

then add the Q-Filter tone wiring so we can better isolate any issues.

Thanks SO much for offering to help.  I realize I don't have any "knowledge" to add to this forum but I CAN draw stuff.  Happy pay it forward by offering to help with rendering some diagrams.

Let me know


Yellerdawg

[sumgai]

ol' yeller,


Hi, and to The NutzHouse!


Around these parts, we tend to hold Dirk W. in somewhat less than high esteem.  I won't take the two or three pages necessary to dissect (and correct!) everything he said, but instead I'll link you to our own discussion/thread on the topic, started and directed by our own JohnH :

Modern and 50s Wiring

See if that doesn't help you along a little more clearly, vis-a-vis the tone control portion of your scheme.

BTW, nice going, testing in stages as you build each portion - that's the proper way to assemble a complicated scheme.

HTH





sumgai

[JohnH]

On the tone wiring, the updated diagram looks like a good basis for testing. A few comments FYI:

1. Currently, you show the standard tone cap, and the Q filter arrangement, both in Modern position, ie wired to the input side of the volume pot, ie lugs 1 and 2 both go to the same place on the volume (hot outer lug v1). In fact, if that was what you finally decide, you could ignore the left side of your push pull switch. But it gives the chance to experiment moving to the 50's position if you wish.

2. For the cap and resistor on the end of the Q filter, I saw Bill Lawrence suggest 0.02uF cap and 8k resistor. (0.022 and 8.2k are nearest). That wouldn't be critical and those values have huge scope for experimenting to see what is nicest in your guitar.

3. The 500k tone pot is a good value, but given a choice, I'd have picked a log pot. As a linear pot, most of the changes of tone will happen at the lowest part of the knob turn instead of spread across. But the same ranges of tones are available.

4. As shown, the pushed in condition will be the Q filter and pulled out for the normal tone cap

[yellerdawg]

Thanks for the info - here's an update from the wiring session today.  interesting when the rubber hits the road.
Will definitely get a linear push pull for the tone pot

the good, the bad, the ugly

1. the good is real good.  the Warmoth neck feels awesome in my hands and the stainless steel frets are just what I've been searching for.  perfect feel.
- The bill lawrence single coil 280 sounds amazing in the neck position.
- the north coil only humbucker sounds twangy and seems to deliver the tone that the body style wants...

2. The bad - the superswitch should be renamed the supersize switch.  It barely fits in the tele route.  There is no way for the swtich to be centered therefore my coverplate isn't going to work.  I can't be the first guy to run into this problem so worse case I end up making a custom one.

3. the ugly - the whole cavity has copper grounding tape and we tested the faraday cage thing last session and all is grounded but the guitar is very noisy especially in position 1 - humbucker.... 

I am hoping this is the case since we have not yet put any pots in and nothing is really grounded because there is no cover plate, the neck pickup is not secured to the body yet, and the output plug is dangling loose as we left everything open since we have not yet tackled the tone pot.

I couldn't wait to see if this 20-years-of-thinking-about-it-while-my-kids-took-over-my-life project would actually work, 

I have no doubt that I will be playing a lot more guitar.

[newey]

'dawg-

2. The bad - the superswitch should be renamed the supersize switch. It barely fits in the tele route. There is no way for the swtich to be centered therefore my coverplate isn't going to work. I can't be the first guy to run into this problem so worse case I end up making a custom one.

You aren't the first, and the solution is to reach into your wallet and buy the narrow version of the superswitch designed to fit in Tele cavities:

toneshapers.com/switch-5-way-oak-grigsby-4-pole-superswitch-narrow.html

(Please note that the was simply the first link my search pulled up. I suspect there are multiples sources for this part, and I am not vouching for or recommending this particular website, with whom I have never dealt.)

3. the ugly - the whole cavity has copper grounding tape and we tested the faraday cage thing last session and all is grounded but the guitar is very noisy especially in position 1 - humbucker....

I am hoping this is the case since we have not yet put any pots and nothing is really grounded because there is no cover plate, the neck pickup is not secured to the body yet, and the output plug is dangling loose as we left everything open since we have not yet tackled the tone pot.

No Faraday cage as yet exists under these circumstances, so I would not worry unduly about the noise just yet.

[yellerdawg]

newey

thanks for the link to the skinny 5 way super switch.  Ahh the money I am saving by doing this myself!

The good news is that since I ordered most of the wrong parts, I now have enough pots and knobs to build 3 or 4 more guitars.

Related Questions:

1. the Bill Lawrence humbucker has a very different tone compared to the SD59' I use in the bridge of my Epihone LP.  The 59' pickup is very "tight" sounding while the Lawrence has scratchy "loose" sound...  - almost sounds like a single coil.

I have read that capacitors can be used by default for humbuckers / single coils.  Any ideas on tightening up the humbucker sound?

2. I think I may have some signal cancellation going on because the volume level drops out a lot when in the full humbucker / single coil position 4.
Seems like the sound level should stay the same or get louder when the single coil is added to the full humbucker?

Thanks again for your patience

dawg

[ashcatlt]

yellerdawg said:

Seems like the sound level should stay the same or get louder when the single coil is added to the full humbucker?

Naw it will be quieter than the HB alone. Probably a little louder than the SC.

It’s a lot complicated, but a quick estimate. assuming all three coils are approximately the same, you get 2/3 of the SC and 1/3 of the HB, but the HB is already 2, so you’ve got 4/3 the output of any single coil. Sort of.

[yellerdawg]

Well I'll be a son of a gun.

thanks for the fractional math breakdown.  illuminating although a bit disappointing.

the pickup combo/tone I am looking for is to "add" the single coil to the full humbucker tone.  Like a 2/3 Humbucker 1/3 SC.

Is this possible?

I have a 500K push pull pot that I could use for the volume pot to use as a blend pot to control how much single coil is added to the humbucker.  

[ashcatlt]

Jul 20, 2020 13:55:05 GMT -5 yellerdawg said:

Is this possible?

Not really with passive components. Theoretically we could add “mixing resistors” in series with the pickups, but that would start to affect your tone pretty quick.

[yellerdawg]

got it. 

So how about the 2/3 humbucker 1/3 SC?  

[JohnH]

If you combine pickuos in parallel, you tend to get a volume and tone that is a sort of average, usually nearer to the weaker pickup, and maybe brighter.

If what you really want is adding of volume to get louder, then that indicates more of a series mix, pickhos wired end to end, and we can go there. The volume gets louder, the tone may get more mid-focussed, less edgy.

[yellerdawg]

thanks for the series parallel info.  As you can tell I know the sound I'm after and I have superswitch so I believe I have lots of options.

so for the bridge humbucker + neck single coil tone I'm going for 80% humbucker, 20% SC.

I am hearing a crunchy mid-rangey bridge humbucker but with a more open SC sound.  This tone strikes as very versatile.

If I could have a single dial that allowed by to go from 100 HB/0 SC to 100% SC / 0 HB I would think I'd be on to something...

[ashcatlt]

Well like I said, theoretically...

Again assuming that all three coils are about the same, you put a resistor in series with the SC with a value equal to the DCR of a coil, and then you’ll get 1/2 of the SC output mixed with 1/2 of the HB output. Because the BB output starts out twice as big as the SC, you end up with volume equal to 3/2 of the SC, with the HB accounting for about 2/3 of that. You may lose some treble, though.

[yellerdawg]

This sounds cool although over my head. I will share this with My solder dude electronics guy.

Is this idea of blending the humbuckr and the Single coil even a viable thing to try?

Thanks

[newey]

Jul 20, 2020 23:11:01 GMT -5 yellerdawg said:

Is this idea of blending the humbuckr and the Single coil even a viable thing to try?

Yes, but it can be difficult if one wants to blend in both a parallel mode as well as in series. There is a wealth of info on blending pickups around here if you search it.

Plan to use a no-load pot for the blender to take it completely out of the circuit when not in use. You can modify one of your existing pots to be no-load, rather than buying a pre-made one, since you already have extras, as you say.

[yellerdawg]

Thanks for bearing with me.  Here's some updates

1. Playing the guitar is helping to understand where it wants to go with its current guts

2. It's delivering on the multiple personality front.

- Neck SC is gorgeous and sounds Straty and clean.  forces me to hit the right notes...

- the split coils are squawky and make me want to play Tom Petty songs

- The L500L is the problem child still.  Harsh sounding - but I think I'm beginning to learn the things people already know about capacitors and bleeding off treble.  thanks again for your patience.

Other 101 things I'm learning

3. Adjusting PU height makes a big difference - tone and levels between the PUs

Plan forward

1. Get the humbucker tone figured out using an approach from either the 50s, 60's, etc
2. Try to match the levels of the PUs so the volume of the guitar is more consistent in any position
3. Once I'm happy with the regular tone add in the Q-Filter and see where that takes me.

I realize you guys help out so many people on this forum so I really do appreciate the cycles.

[sumgai]

Jul 21, 2020 9:39:33 GMT -5 yellerdawg said:

I realize you guys help out so many people on this forum so I really do appreciate the cycles.

Spoken like a true computer geek!

[yellerdawg]

It's that obvious?

Been dealing with software for a long, long time.   Speaking of software not sure if there are any Schuffham S-Gear fans here on GuitarNutz but it's amazing software amp modeler.  Putting my project guitar through its paces.

I am waiting for the skinny superswitch to show up so I'm playing the franken-tele with no control plate, no grounding and no pots.  It's fun to have a new guitar around but this guy is noisy and the L500L bridge PU is quite shrill with no 500K pot

[thetragichero]

when i had a tele with a superswitch i got out the Dremel and made room for it further down in the "meat" of the body, so that the metal cover still covered the same area. do this at your own risk as it is several orders of magnitude harder to put back material than it is to take away

never been too keen on humbucker + single in parallel but split humbucker in series with a single coil can be quite nice. for what it's worth I'm imagining you having a completely unused pole so attempting to complicate things for you 😜

[reTrEaD]

Jul 21, 2020 18:51:42 GMT -5 yellerdawg said:

I am waiting for the skinny superswitch to show up

Hopefully that will get you where you want to go.

Personally, I would have gone this way:

www.amazon.com/Schaller-Megaswitch-Electric-Guitar-way/dp/B0102R5VD6



The detent mechanism is far superior to that of a superswitch and it's wonderfully compact. If you have good soldering skill, you won't have a problem soldering to the pads. If you poor soldering skills, a skinny superswitch would be the way to go.

[yellerdawg]

Thanks for the link.  I originally got the Schaller E swtich but it would not support the humbucker + single coil config which led me to the superswitch.


Is this series wiring in this pic from Schaller that you are recommending over the parallel setup I have now?

[thetragichero]

instead of all three in series in the middle position (quite possibly muddy) split bridge + neck (standard tele middle position) would be my choice but i may just be complicating things for ya

[yellerdawg]

Jul 22, 2020 14:07:07 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

instead of all three in series in the middle position (quite possibly muddy) split bridge + neck (standard tele middle position) would be my choice but i may just be complicating things for ya

thanks for the tip.  I am going to try the Schaller M switch.  Should fit in the Tele cavity and will supply the humbucker + neck sound - my current way of doing this is parallel (i think) using the superswitch but I am looking to try the series approach. Are you saying this is going to sound muddy?  I may be chasing rainbows with this humbucker + neck SC thing.

the mystical tone I am shooting for is a tight bridgey humbucker with this extra body and actually more open-ended clarity.  I probably sound crazy...

[thetragichero]

have a tele-type build with a switch to put the pickups in series (also my #1 start with the bridge and middle singles in series). some folks call that a "broadbucker"
I'm not very good with the flowery language often used to describe tone so i wouldn't be able to tell you that it's "more open" than a standard bridge humbucker. but i like it

[reTrEaD]

Jul 22, 2020 15:03:11 GMT -5 yellerdawg said:

I am going to try the Schaller M switch.

You might try contacting Schaller or Eyb Guitars (Günther Eyb and his friend came up with the idea for the Megaswitch and worked with Schaller who manufacture it.) and ask if you can buy one direct from either of them. Might be cheaper than the link I gave you. idk.

[sumgai]

'dawg,



Hi, and to The NutzHouse!

The nutshell explanation of how tone is affected goes something like this:

Capacitors tend to pass higher frequencies, and tend to block lower frequencies.

Inductors tend to do the opposite - block higher frequencies and pass lower frequencies.

A pickup is an inductor, and we usually call it a coil.

Hence, a pickup by its very nature is not what you might call a "full frequency" device.  But the rub is, if you combine two (or more!) coils in some way, then they either tend to reduce the lows (coils in parallel) or tend to reduce the highs (coils in series).  Needless to say, the more coils in either choice of combination, the more noticeable the effect.

What thetragichero has said is that you may find the final tone of all three coils in series to be quite muddy... usually an undesirable sound, although I should emphasize the word "usually", because some folks actually like the results.

In other news, some guitar players are completely tone deaf - stay tuned for News at 11 o'clock!


HTH






sumgai

[yellerdawg]

Thanks for the 101 on capacities and induction. It’s good to start with the basics and work up.

Based on what I’m learning I think once the tone wiring is in and all is grounded this axe is going to deliver what I need

I’ll make a video and walk thru the tones