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Post by frets on Aug 1, 2020 14:11:55 GMT -5
Hey Guys, Hope your weekend is going well. Today, this guy brings into me a Chibson Les Paul. The build quality is one of the better I’ve seen; and, he wants to upgrade it to a Jimmy Page. We had talked prior (about 6 weeks ago) and he balked at the prices for pots and freaked about the switch price. So he comes in today with all the parts to make his guitar a Jimmy Page. What a hoot, they were all in a beat up Amazon box (which he kept). They’re all Fleor Chinese parts. Now I’ve inspected these parts closely. We have 4 Fleor Push-Push Pots, a Fleor Jack, a Fleor 3 Way. The Push-Push pots are suprisingly Imperial with a brass or copper bushing. And it’s not painted just to look that way. I was intrigued, so I took one apart. The quality was pretty good. The push push mechanism was identical to an Alpha (no big surprise there). The thing is as sturdy as an Alpha Push-Push, I kid you not. Now I wouldn’t run and put it in my ‘62 Les Paul; but for a cheap Chinese pot, it’s the best I’ve seen. Next is the Jack. The Jack has a secondary tine running from the ground ring, that’s purpose is to increase the sturdiness, or rigidity of the Jack. One wonders why they just did not make the metal thicker, but it works. Pushing the jack down requires as much force as a Switchcraft. In addition, it strengthens the hold and one can assume, prevents the jack from becoming loose. It’s still stupid, but it works. The Switch is a piece of doo doo. But overall I found inspecting these parts interesting. Usually I never touch a Chinese part (well, Bourns), but these were not bad. I’ll never use them (except when someone brings them in and insists they be used) Now do the lower prices warrant substitution for CTS, Bourns, Alpha,Switchcraft? -absolutely not. The guy should have listened to me. Nonetheless, I was impressed (a modicum) by Chinese parts that seemed to be an improvement. Is there hope that lower priced Chinese Guitar parts may be improving? I remember seeing a Fleor Humbucker review on the forum that was favorable as well (I think). The Takeaway - use American parts or name brand parts (as you already know); however, there might be a glimmer with this Fleor brand - someday, not today. You may now all state that Cindi is crazy...and a woman...and what do women know about parts. Ha!   |
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Post by sumgai on Aug 1, 2020 14:47:35 GMT -5
frets , That "extra tine" shows this to be a switching jack. Completely useless where used in an output function, it's intended for use in an input function. You already know that when you ground an amp's input connection (be it a cable's tip or by some other method), the amp gets quiet. It should stand to reason that a "switching jack" could automate the grounding of the input tang (the somewhat-official moniker amongst manufacturers) so that when there's no plug inserted, the input tang is grounded, and when a plug is inserted, the signal will flow (the 'extra' tang no longer makes any contact with the input tang). HTH sumgai
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Post by frets on Aug 1, 2020 15:27:46 GMT -5
Sumgai, thank you for clarifying. I have honestly never seen one on these. Ha! I thought it was for strengthening the jack, what a cottonheadedninnymuggins I am!! See, I do know nothing about parts.🥴. But in my defense, there are many, and I’m young, and I don’t have the greatest attention span. But this is why this forum is so important, it has guys that know so much and have so much experience.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Aug 1, 2020 22:08:15 GMT -5
Oh well, you could offer him the pure tone jack you never used as an alternative 😉
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Post by b4nj0 on Aug 2, 2020 2:55:29 GMT -5
Yep. I have an amp input socket used as an output socket on a British made double cut (Gordon Smith Gypsy- it's a real doozy.) I converted the guitar from in-house manufactured humbucker to a late 1960s Gibson P90 (long story) and it caught me out on rewiring- the circuit rang out fine until I put a plug in and then no sound. I had wired to the switching contact by mistake because the correct contact was out of sight beneath the wood rout. Some of my hair went on that one!
e&oe ...
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Post by newey on Aug 2, 2020 6:45:29 GMT -5
I have used several switching jacks in projects, and they all had a third (or fourth) solder lug to make the switch connection. Not seeing that in the photos here. So I thought frets was probably right the first time. |
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Post by b4nj0 on Aug 2, 2020 8:21:01 GMT -5
Regarding the OP, my old Dad (when I worked for him ...) used to say "Son, if the customer wants it sky blue-pink with yellow polka dots, paint it and charge them accordingly". That is the Chinese mantra too. Clearly the Chinese build some superb equipment but they also churn out abject trash (the new Hong Kong if you will for those of us of a certain vintage!) I have encountered a failure rate of at least two out of three with panel mount 3.5mm TRS sockets (tighten the facia nuts and collapso) yet there is no question about the quality of the sockets on a good piece of Chinese equipment.
The trick is how to assess quality from carp using only an online image? It's a viper's nest. To some degree, you get what you pay for, and if like me you routinely filter the eBay hits as priced low to high, like me you get what you deserve. Paying extra is no guarantee of good quality, but low-balling it is a good bet on receiving junk. The novelty soon wears off paying bargain bucket prices and eating it, but I still do it every time.
e&oe ...
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Post by thetragichero on Aug 2, 2020 10:12:52 GMT -5
i have had decent results using Chinese capacitors and resistors (as long as the right value was received). awful luck with semiconductors (generally they're not what they were supposed to be). i pay about two bucks for a standard bourns pot, about six for a bourns push/pull. alpha pots are cheaper and one and two dollars (these are cedist prices. if you have documentation that you're a business i would highly suggest getting an account there). stomp box-size pots are 50 cents at tayda. switchcraft jacks about a buck or two.
basically no reason for me to go cheap cheap
i use bourns for everything, alpha if bourns doesn't make what i want, and cts only when i must (3M c taper and 50k c taper in my most recent order as i have a couple of builds i wish to use the vibro champ TREMOLO circuit in)
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Post by sumgai on Aug 2, 2020 11:29:41 GMT -5
I have used several switching jacks in projects, and they all had a third (or fourth) solder lug to make the switch connection. Not seeing that in the photos here. So I thought frets was probably right the first time. This is the simplest version of switching, the intent being to automate a single function, that of shorting the signal-carrying tang to the sleeve. Further complication allows one to choose which tang is connected to where, or even two entirely separate tangs hooked up elsewhere, not inter-mingled with the "standard" connections at all. (A piece of mica is used as an insulator between the main contact on the others.) The point is to automate an additional process that is dependent upon a plug's insertion. Even the standard TRS jack is very often suborned into duty as a switching jack, eh?  In the case at bar, we could say that the frets version as shown above is a 'normally closed' arrangement, whereas the TRS version is a 'normally open' one. The earliest Fender amp I ever worked on was a '55 Deluxe, and it had this very same input jack. (Yes, it was worn out, part of the reason I was asked to restore it to usable condition.) In my experience, Fender has always used them, but then again, I haven't seen any amps from before '55, so I could be wrong. I should also add that Fender has used them at the output end of things, which is doable on a tube/output transformer amp. Not my favorite way of loading the output, but if the amp doesn't blow up from it, who am I to argue. Just don't try this on a solid state unit, or the Environmental Police will soon be knocking on your door, asking uncomfortably pointed questions about all that smoke coming out of your work area.
One more thing.... The reason for using these on both input and output is, from a manufacturer's standpoint, one doesn't need to purchase and stock two different parts. A bone-stock 1/4" plug is universal in the guitar world, so why not just use the one part for both jobs?  When you purchase in job quantities of 10,000 or 20,000 per order, the cost difference isn't even pennies per unit. This 'economy of scale' applies to the ultra-cheap jacks as well, which explains why 80% of all my work on British amps was to replace one or more jacks, even when everything else was working just fine.... but the jack was not mentioned directly by the customer, something else was blamed for the amp not working as intended. Sigh. HTH sumgai |
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Post by frets on Aug 2, 2020 13:34:55 GMT -5
I use Korean parts frequently in builds. Never ever use Chinese guitar parts; nor, passive parts. But I have heard Donlis parts are okay. I’ve seen a few of their parts on guitars and they were functional. You’d think the Chinese would understand the billion dollar guitar industry and build accordingly.
Trag, I do have a tax ID. I pay $2.80 for Bourns Push-Pulls, a $1.74 for Bourns 24mm Standards. With CTS, it’s more difficult, I can buy 24mm 450GT’s for $3.40 in either 250k or 500k. Still have yet to find a CTS Push-Pull Vendor. Now on Alpha I can get Korean brass bushing 24mm’s for .090. Push-Pulls are around $2.70.
One thing I will say is that the Koreans make some excellent parts. I have 3, 4 and 5 ways that cost me about $3.47 a piece that are superior to your basic Oak Grigsby.
Oh, and Clarion, you’re a Smarty Aleck.
But Guys, before you get too excited about my parts prices, realize that I’m buying 100 at a time.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Aug 2, 2020 14:00:44 GMT -5
Frets
“One thing I will say is that the Koreans make some excellent parts. I have 3, 4 and 5 ways that cost me about $3.47 a piece that are superior to your basic Oak Grigsby.”
Very interesting. Any pics? Does it have a nice feel/click . Is the oak grigsby Considered a good quality part ? I think I had one actually but can’t remember
“Oh, and Clarion, you’re a Smarty Aleck”
lol, I was totally being serious 😄 I actually have a prewired pure tone jack in my eBay watch list I plan on buying
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Post by gumbo on Aug 2, 2020 19:27:03 GMT -5
I have used several switching jacks in projects, and they all had a third (or fourth) solder lug to make the switch connection. Not seeing that in the photos here. So I thought frets was probably right the first time. This is the simplest version of switching, the intent being to automate a single function, that of shorting the signal-carrying tang to the sleeve. Further complication allows one to choose which tang is connected to where, or even two entirely separate tangs hooked up elsewhere, not inter-mingled with the "standard" connections at all. (A piece of mica is used as an insulator between the main contact on the others.) The point is to automate an additional process that is dependent upon a plug's insertion. Even the standard TRS jack is very often suborned into duty as a switching jack, eh? In the case at bar, we could say that the frets version as shown above is a 'normally closed' arrangement, whereas the TRS version is a 'normally open' one. The earliest Fender amp I ever worked on was a '55 Deluxe, and it had this very same input jack. (Yes, it was worn out, part of the reason I was asked to restore it to usable condition.) In my experience, Fender has always used them, but then again, I haven't seen any amps from before '55, so I could be wrong. I should also add that Fender has used them at the output end of things, which is doable on a tube/output transformer amp. Not my favorite way of loading the output, but if the amp doesn't blow up from it, who am I to argue. Just don't try this on a solid state unit, or the Environmental Police will soon be knocking on your door, asking uncomfortably pointed questions about all that smoke coming out of your work area.
One more thing.... The reason for using these on both input and output is, from a manufacturer's standpoint, one doesn't need to purchase and stock two different parts. A bone-stock 1/4" plug is universal in the guitar world, so why not just use the one part for both jobs? When you purchase in job quantities of 10,000 or 20,000 per order, the cost difference isn't even pennies per unit. This 'economy of scale' applies to the ultra-cheap jacks as well, which explains why 80% of all my work on British amps was to replace one or more jacks, even when everything else was working just fine.... but the jack was not mentioned directly by the customer, something else was blamed for the amp not working as intended. Sigh. HTH sumgai Firstly, sg makes a number of valid points in his explanation...there are a couple of other instances where switching jacks have their place as a guitar OUTPUT jack...one less common, one more common.. Less common: When one has multiple outputs on a guitar and differing electronics within the instrument service the respective outputs, sometimes it becomes necessary to disconnect part of the internal circuitry when a specific output jack is used...an easy example (for me at least!) is the Fender Roland Ready Strat and its successor, the Fender GC-1 Strat.. These guitars have BOTH a 1/4" output AND a 13-pin Din output for the included Roland Hex Pickup.....when utilising the 1/4" output as a 'regular' guitar, a Normally Closed jack is in the circuit so that the action of inserting a jackplug BREAKS the connection between the mag pickups and the on-board pre-amp Roland PCB, and prevents those electronics from colo(u)ring the mag signal.... in other words the Roland Hex PCB is wired VIA the switching contacts of the N.C. 1/4" Switching Jack... Simply inserting a 1/4" jackplug actuates the switch in the jack, and everybody is happy without having to think about it too much. More common: Some guitars have Active Pickup Circuits that are powered by on-board batteries...left in the circuit and 'turned-on' 24/7 will cause these batteries to discharge quickly. Often the batteries (and/or other power source) is wired via a Normally Open 1/4" Switching Jack, so that the power supply is effectively ONLY Turned on when a Jackplug is inserted... Downside is obviously if one forgets what is going on and goes to bed (or elsewhere) leaving the cable plugged into the guitar...but this scenario should only happen a couple of times before it becomes second-nature to UNPLUG the guitar when not using it...  A couple of other uses for N.O & N.C. 1/4" Switching Jacks as OUTPUT JACKS for guitars....  OMG...I forgot to derail this thread... Sorry Folks.. g-f-b |
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Post by ourclarioncall on Aug 2, 2020 19:37:15 GMT -5
gumbointeresting post. I also appreciate that someone is helping teach these Americans how to spell properly 👍👍😬 (** starting to dig trench now**) (p.s, I am married to a Texas lassie so I’m allowed to poke fun 🤗) greetings from Scotland 🏴
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Post by gumbo on Aug 3, 2020 5:12:37 GMT -5
Yeah... Scotland is the place where the Postmen run around in red shorts 12 months of the year... Don't deny it, I've been there...  ...I think that's so they'll be seen in the snow...and not be accidentally run over by an errant Pipe Band trying to keep their chanters from freezing up.. ...spelling is in the ear of the beholder, mostly....  Cheers, g-f-b |
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Post by gumbo on Aug 3, 2020 5:23:41 GMT -5
Ah yes, Pipe Bands...
...they are the folk that give alarm clocks a run for their money....
Of course, another use of Pipe Bands is to constrict the amount of effluent that they can pass...now, there are places on the Earth where THAT could be a very great help..
...think about it, just get the ol' house sewer pipes banded (only once) and you could save a WHOLE FAMILY of people from having that same dire procedure enacted upon their intestines..
Less cost to Public Health, and a great saviour for the Plumbing Industry who are still only just getting used to the idea that there are in fact limits to the number of times the same leaks can be 'fixed' in the course of one customer's life time..
Come to think of it.... no let's not go there right now...
..we can save that for another thread in need of derailment..
Thanks Folks...I hope I passed the Test
g-f-b
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Post by frets on Aug 3, 2020 10:57:45 GMT -5
This is in response to Clarion’s request pertaining to my conclusion that the Korean Switches I utilize are of high quality. I’ve posted two pictures. I happen to be working on a 50’s Harness so excuse that. Clarion, the switch is made of a sturdy metal alloy. The center cog includes a brass construction. The switch shifts are firm and stable. I’ve been putting these in guitars for four years now and have never had a customer complain or return a guitar because of the switch. They come from a Korean parts distributor that primarily sells Alpha parts. But I believe them to be Guyker? Anyway, I have 3,4,5 and Superswitches all of the same construction. And to answer your question Clarion, Oak-Grigsby are considered very good switches; however, I prefer these Korean Switches (and not only because they’re cheaper). Sometimes I wear red shorts to open the mail.   |
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Post by thetragichero on Aug 3, 2020 13:51:31 GMT -5
yikes needing to jump start your switch?
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Post by frets on Aug 3, 2020 16:32:52 GMT -5
Alright Trag, I use that as a heat sink for soldering pots. It has no cable on it...Rodney Dangerfield of Guitarnutz. I oughta....
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Post by sumgai on Aug 3, 2020 18:56:59 GMT -5
..... Rodney Dangerfield of Guitarnutz. I oughta.... What's the matter, frets ? Do you think you're not getting any respect?  |
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Post by ourclarioncall on Aug 3, 2020 21:33:41 GMT -5
Yeah... Scotland is the place where the Postmen run around in red shorts 12 months of the year... Don't deny it, I've been there... ...I think that's so they'll be seen in the snow...and not be accidentally run over by an errant Pipe Band trying to keep their chanters from freezing up.. ...spelling is in the ear of the beholder, mostly.... Cheers, g-f-b Aye laddie, I’m hoping the red short brigade will soon deliver my new bare knuckle pickup I’ve been waiting ages for.... somehow there was a problem with attempted delivery and I think it got shipped back to England 😑🙁 the Irish pipes are pretty cool too, think you squeeze them under your armpit |
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Post by b4nj0 on Aug 4, 2020 2:45:59 GMT -5
At least the Oirish pipes are chromatic ...
e&oe ...
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Post by gumbo on Aug 4, 2020 3:40:03 GMT -5
At least the Oirish pipes are chromatic ... e&oe ...Ah yes, made out of 1953 Hillman Minx bumpers, no doubt.... |
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Post by gumbo on Aug 4, 2020 3:42:27 GMT -5
...and it's OK, Frets...I'm not dwelling on the thought of you opening the mail....  |
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In the case at bar, we could say that the 
When you purchase in job quantities of 10,000 or 20,000 per order, the cost difference isn't even pennies per unit. This 'economy of scale' applies to the ultra-cheap jacks as well, which explains why 80% of all my work on British amps was to replace one or more jacks, even when everything else was working just fine.... but the jack was not mentioned directly by the customer, something else was blamed for the amp not working as intended. Sigh.
