Translation Trouble from a 3-Way Toggle tI a 3-Way Switch

[frets]

Hi Fellas,

I have a problem; and, I’m embarrassed to admit it because I should know how to do it. 🤗  But it is eluding me.  So I have to put it up in shame an HOPE and PRAY one of the Angels will put me straight.  I’m working on a two control Ibanez HH,
I decided to do a Push Pull Volume/Dual Coil Cut and a Push Pull Tone/Series.  So I find this Diagram

And, I said to myself, “Cindi, this will be an easy translation from a 3-Way Toggle to a 3-Way Switch.”  Umm, nope, it doesn’t work when converted to a Blade, it gives me Bridge, Bridge, Bridge + Neck.  I then moved it over from the 3-Way Blade to a cheapo Chinese 3-Way Import that has only 3-Lugs (B, B+N, N) and get the same result.  What do I need to do to fix it so that it can function in a normal 3-Way?  Thank you thank you please and thank you 😰

[JohnH]

methinks its the diagram itself doing that, as on the usual JP schemes. What should happen? Since its going to be a series mode, then we can make it so the toggle gets bypassed fully and its full series BxN in all positions of it, and the toggle then works as usual in parallel mode B, B+N, N. Can fix you up with that. For toggle, read 3way switch also no difference. What is trickier, cant be done with these switches (at least not with a Gibson toggle), is in series mode to get B, BxN, N

[sumgai]

frets,



While I can see your problem, I can't see your diagram's details - it's waaaay too small. On my screen, it takes up about 5%, give or take a tiny bit. Sigh.

But your description is enough. Here's the low-down:

In order to get pretty much the same results from a Fender-style blade as the Gibson toggle, we'll  have to hook the two poles together at their common terminals. Then the Neck connects to terminals 1 and 2 on one pole, and the Bridge connects to terminals 2 and 3 of the other pole. That should get us the same results as the Gibson style switch.  So much for taking care of things in parallel.

Now for the series question. In the diagram, we're seeing what looks to me like you get series when the toggle selects either Bridge or Both, and you'll have a dead spot when you select the Neck only.  (Perhaps I have that backwards, the labels are too tiny for me to read.)  There is a way around this, but first it would be nice to know - do you want the "push-pull down" to give series no matter where the selector is sitting at?  Or do you want to be able to have B and N separately, regardless of the p/p being either up or down?  The wiring for each is just enough different that we need to know first.

HTH






sumgai

[frets]

Thanks guys,  
I’ve got it working now, I sat down and re-did the diagram.  I streamlined it.  It’s different than the one I posted, I’m trying to draw it up; but, that takes me a while, and I’m still on a learning curve with diagrams.  I pretty much did what Sumgai recommended on the switch.  

I have tried to use these “Megabucker“ diagrams before and they inevitably are just not right.  I was foolish to try one again. I’m happy with the solution I came up with.  I’m working on what I came up with so you guys can vett it.

 You know, doing these semi-complicated wiring diagrams is a steep learning curve.  I find attempting to translate what’s in my mind to something comprehensible on paper to be extremely challenging.   

Right now I have the series functioning in the neck and bridge positions.  Of course the neck cuts out when in the B+N position when the series/tone is pulled up.  

[Yogi B]

Aug 15, 2020 16:47:19 GMT -5 sumgai said:

While I can see your problem, I can't see your diagram's details - it's waaaay too small. On my screen, it takes up about 5%, give or take a tiny bit. Sigh.

(EDIT: Found the original source of the diagram Duh Voodoo Man's Humbucker Wiring Mods Page)

Here's a bigger version, that I found on many many image aggregators via reverse image searching, the additional PSA is of my own doing:

SPOILER: Click to show

Now for the series question. In the diagram, we're seeing what looks to me like you get series when the toggle selects either Bridge or Both, and you'll have a dead spot when you select the Neck only.  (Perhaps I have that backwards, the labels are too tiny for me to read.)

I believe you do, have it backwards, that is.

The other no-go with this design is coil splitting via shorting the unused coil to ground. That's fine (fine in italics, i.e. still not great, but not plain wrong) in parallel, but will end up shorting the lower (bridge) pickup in the series 'stack' when both the split and series push-pulls are up. Instead this should be done with via a reference to ground in a more local scope, not directly to 'global' ground.

There is a way around this, but first it would be nice to know - do you want the "push-pull down pulled" to give series no matter where the selector is sitting at?  Or do you want to be able to have B and N separately, regardless of the p/p being either up or down?  The wiring for each is just enough different that we need to know first.

"just enough different" sounds like those two options have very similar wiring, I don't think they're all that similar, but maybe I'm looking at wrong?

Aug 15, 2020 16:35:38 GMT -5 JohnH said:

What is trickier, cant be done with these switches (at least not with a Gibson toggle), is in series mode to get B, BxN, N

That's why these exist, or at least one of the reasons why it's fortuitous that they do. (Or anything else that one might hack together out of a couple of the usual Switchcraft toggles, so long as it functions like a normal DPDT ON/ON/ON.)

[sumgai]

Yogi,


Thanks for the blown-up image, looks great! And love your warning, in black-and-red no less... priceless!

---

frets,


You have a problem.  In fact, you've got two of 'em, both stemming from this diagram.  But for the sake of the K.I.S.S. principle, I'm going to reply more fully in your Easy Jimmy Page Wiring thread.  Fortunately, they're not major for most people, but the kinds of clients you get..... I think they should be addressed more closely than just going for 'easy'.  C'ya in the other thread.




sumgai

[frets]

This is a quick Draft that I wired to enable a Dual Coil Split and Series/Parallel.  It is a Draft only for vetting.  I realize its Coil Split issue.

[sumgai]

Yogi,

Aug 15, 2020 20:47:16 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

The other no-go with this design is coil splitting via shorting the unused coil to ground. That's fine (fine in italics, i.e. still not great, but not plain wrong) in parallel, but will end up shorting the lower (bridge) pickup in the series 'stack' when both the split and series push-pulls are up. Instead this should be done with via a reference to ground in a more local scope, not directly to 'global' ground.

You know me, I'm not an Hb lover..... but didn't we discuss, a long time ago, the advantage of wiring an Hb "inside out" so that the correct coil was shorted when doing this kind of thing? Seems to me, and I'm no authority here, but I think that frets has taken care of this problem... unless she's just throwing darts at a board, and hoping that it all works out.... but whaddaIknow?

[frets]

Sumgai,
No dart throwing here, I really did sit down and attempted to figure it out. Weeeeee😘

[ashcatlt]

A little confused why you wouldn’t have consulted a telecaster diagram when you’re using a telecaster switch, but whatevs. You managed to reinvent standard Tele switching all on your own.

I think this is retread’s pic showing Series Override wiring. Does it help?

You’ve got bridge permanently connected to ground and neck to hot, but this works either way. Your most recent coil splitting takes advantage of that to keep humcancelling and avoid that whole problem mentioned by Yogi B above.

[frets]

Hi Ascatit,
I originally did not think about Telecaster wiring; and, I do a fair amount of Telecasters. I was so focused on doing this for an Ibanez it didn’t even cross my mind.

Everyone’s response did help me find the solution. I’m happy with it. It extends my range. I don’t get a lot of Ibanez guitars, which is interesting given they are so popular. Hopefully, this is a mod I can offer to the guys that do come in with an Ibanez. Thanks !

[newey]

Aug 17, 2020 10:22:00 GMT -5 frets said:

I don’t get a lot of Ibanez guitars, which is interesting given they are so popular.

Be aware, if you get any HSH Ibbys, they use a proprietary 5-way switch that is not equivalent to othe 5-ways. We have the skinny on that switch in the references. I have an 1980s-vintage Ibanez HSH that uses their 5-way, it gives Neck HB/NSC + M/M/M + BSC/Br HB. Sort of a progressive HB switching, each flick of the switch moves it over by one coil.

[frets]

Newey,

Oh I know about the Ibby 5-Way. I’ve got a handful of them. Most guys with Ibby’s want their pickups changed out. Or a Varitone. I really like Ibanez guitars; in particular, their Artcore Series. I have probably 8 Ibanez guitars. I’ve re-wired 3 of them.

[Yogi B]

Aug 16, 2020 13:08:06 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Aug 15, 2020 20:47:16 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

The other no-go with this design is coil splitting via shorting the unused coil to ground. That's fine (fine in italics, i.e. still not great, but not plain wrong) in parallel, but will end up shorting the lower (bridge) pickup in the series 'stack' when both the split and series push-pulls are up. Instead this should be done with via a reference to ground in a more local scope, not directly to 'global' ground.

You know me, I'm not an Hb lover..... but didn't we discuss, a long time ago, the advantage of wiring an Hb "inside out" so that the correct coil was shorted when doing this kind of thing? Seems to me, and I'm no authority here, but I think that frets has taken care of this problem...

That was in reference to the DVM's flawed diagram not frets' own, and was more about the inter bridge/neck stack rather than intra humbucker coil stack.

Aug 17, 2020 10:51:33 GMT -5 newey said:

Aug 17, 2020 10:22:00 GMT -5 frets said:

I don’t get a lot of Ibanez guitars, which is interesting given they are so popular.

Be aware, if you get any HSH Ibbys, they use a proprietary 5-way switch that is not equivalent to othe 5-ways. We have the skinny on that switch in the references.

"A .. switch" is optimistic nowadays, in addition to that which ChrisK documented there are at least 9 (yes, nine!) other blade type switches Ibanez have since come up with. Some 3-way & some 5-way. I think the majority of them are similar to the Schaller/Eyb megaswitches in that they don't do anything that couldn't be achieved with a superswitch, and are instead a means to simplify the wiring via having the PCB take care of some of it for you. However there are a few which are more specialised: like the megaswitches the switch rotor consists of 4 contacts, so they can be thought of as having 4 poles except that some poles do not have a common terminal or, from an alternate perspective, have multiple common terminals.

At some point I'd like to write up those switches' connectivity tables & their truth tables (as per the stock wiring), but the more unconventional ones may prove tricky to document well.