Les Paul project

[cem]

Hello fellas.

Hope you guys are doing well.

I'm getting some new pickups both for my strat and my les paul. I will finally get my strats wiring done next week or so when the pickups arrive. But after that i'm planning to take my les paul to the next level as well.
I will be using seymour duncan's triple shot mounting rings which lets you choose between slug coil, adjustible coil, parallel or series for each pickup.The link below explains how it works in case you don't know:

guitarproject.pl/templates/images/files/388/1359992651-triple-shot-diagram.pdf

I think i will add a phase switch and a blower switch but i have a couple of questions before i make up my mind.

1- To get an Albert King-like tone, do i need the bridge pickup to go out of phase or the neck. Do you get the same tone either way or is there a difference?
2- How does a blower switch effect the tone compared to a no-load pot. Is it louder and brighter compared to a no-load pot since it also bypasses the volume pot? (It bypasses the volume pot too right? I'm not sure)
3- I really like the no-load pot on my strat and i want it on every guitar i have now. Is it possible to make a pot go no-load via a push-pull switch? I feel like this would make going no-load a lot easier.

Thanks so much!

[newey]

Aug 27, 2020 18:26:41 GMT -5 cem said:

1- To get an Albert King-like tone, do i need the bridge pickup to go out of phase or the neck. Do you get the same tone either way or is there a difference?

It won't matter for Albert King blues-style stuff. Ashcatlt theorized that Brian May used the multiple phase switches on his guitars for some effects while the thing was sustaining at high gain levels, but apart from that type of scenario, it won't matter which pickup you hook up to the phase switch.

2- How does a blower switch effect the tone compared to a no-load pot. Is it louder and brighter compared to a no-load pot since it also bypasses the volume pot? (It bypasses the volume pot too right? I'm not sure)

"Blower switch" means different things to diffeent people, and the term has been thrown around rather haphazardly in these pages. It can mean bypassing a tone pot or pots, or bypassing all the pots. Others use it to mean both bypassing all the pots and turning on the brideg pickup alone, regardless of other switch settings- this type of blower is often called a "solo switch", since one flick gives the bridge pickup, at full volume and without any other pots loading the signal, for playing lead parts.

If you used a switch to just bypass one no-load tone pot, then it should sound the same as the pot turned to the no-load region of travel. If the switch also bypasses the volume and/or other pots that might be in the circuit, then it will sound a bit louder and brighter than just having the no-load pot.

Is it possible to make a pot go no-load via a push-pull switch? I feel like this would make going no-load a lot easier.

A no-load pot is made by removing some of the pot's track at one end, whether that is done at the factory or by you, DIY. As we said above, you could use a switch to bypass the pot, making it sound like a no-load. But then you couldn't use the pot without first flipping the switch to put it back into the circuit. I'm not sure if that's what you're after here, but it would seem more usefule to just have the no-load pot.

[ashcatlt]

Aug 27, 2020 18:26:41 GMT -5 cem said:

1- To get an Albert King-like tone, do i need the bridge pickup to go out of phase or the neck. Do you get the same tone either way or is there a difference?

Makes no meaningful difference. There are people that will argue they can hear the difference whether the speaker comes at them first or moves away. I just nod and back slowly away.

2- How does a blower switch effect the tone compared to a no-load pot. Is it louder and brighter compared to a no-load pot since it also bypasses the volume pot? (It bypasses the volume pot too right? I'm not sure)

Yes it usually would bypass all controls and have the pickups just straight to the jack. It shouldn't be noticeably louder overall, but it will have a bit more top end zing. How much different it is from just a no-load tone kind of depends on everything else.

3- I really like the no-load pot on my strat and i want it on every guitar i have now. Is it possible to make a pot go no-load via a push-pull switch? I feel like this would make going no-load a lot easier.

Yes you could do it with a switch. The Tone control is connected to the rest of the circuit at two points. Disconnecting either of those works. "Best practice" is probably to disconnect the "hot" end so that it's not "hanging from hot", but the noise difference in most cases won't probably be measurable. You can, of course, usually just open up the pot, cut the track at the 10 end, and then put it back together. With most pots it's easy. I think JohnH likes to use a file, but I just use an Xacto knife.


Edit - newey ninja'd me, but it seems we pretty well agree.

[cem]

Makes no meaningful difference. There are people that will argue they can hear the difference whether the speaker comes at them first or moves away. I just nod and back slowly away.

Lol. Okey then i've made up my mind.

By the way the reason why i think a push pull pot is better for no-load is because sometimes i am not sure if i am at the no load zone or not and i tend to check constantly. That would be a huge distraction when on stage. But with a push pull, i will be able to see if it's on or off. Besides my les paul already has 4 push pull pots. Gotta make use of them pots:)

I think a wiring like this would be the most practical for me:

Neck Volume Push-Pull: Blower switch (Bypasses everything and activates the bridge no matter which pickup is selected.)
Bridge Volume Push-Pull: Out of phase switch
Neck Tone Push-Pull: No load for neck tone pot
Bridge Tone Push-Pull: No load for bridge tone pot

So, assuming the things i want would work with the triple shot system, how can i make a wiring like this work?

Thanks a million!!!

[newey]

You do understand, as I said before, that using a push/pull pot to take the tone controls out of the circuit is not quite the same as having a no-load pot, right? The pot won't work unless you first push the switch down. But it certainly can be done, if that's what you want to do.

Let's call your "blower switch" a "solo switch" for clarity's sake, as you specify it as being a "bridge on and pot bypass" switch. The semantics don't really matter, unless someone is searching the forum for "blower switch", which as I said, will pull up numerous variations. "solo switch" has really only been used in the sense that we're using it here.

So, assuming the things i want would work with the triple shot system, how can i make a wiring like this work?

It will work, and you can easily suss this out for yourself. Think of the design in terms of a series of modules.

1) Your triple shot rings get wired according to SD's directions. Thee will be 2 wires coming out of each triple shot- a "hot" and a "ground". You treat these wires just as if they were the "hot" and "ground" wires coming from each pickup. All of the HB wiring is dealt with by the Triple Shots, and you are left with 2 wires just like you were using 2 SC pickups. Call this portion "modules 1 and 2".

2) Next in line will be the individual volume pots, but you will wire the bridge pickup wires to the P/P first to do the phase switch (module 3).

3) Then, the bridge phase "hot" wire will be wired to one pole of the neck V P/P, so as to be switched between the rest of the circuit, versus direct to output. The neck "hot" wire goes directly to its volume pot. The one wire coming from the neck P/P then goes to the bridge V pot. Jumper the upper lug of the Neck V P/P to the other upper lug on the unused pole of that switch. We'll cal this "module 6", since the rest of its wiring will come last in line.

3) Next will be the individual tone pots, but rather than wiring directly to the pots, you will first wire to each one's p/p pot for the on/bypass function, then the "on" connections go to the pot lugs as usual. Call these modules 4 and 5.

4) The "hot" wires from the neck volume pot and the wire from the bridge side of the solo switch then go to the selector switch, in the usual LP fashion.

6) The center lug (the output) from the selector switch then goes to the other pole of the neck V pot P/P (our module 6) so as to switch the output from the selector switch to the bridge side of that switch that you wired previously. Then to the jack.

Hope that helps. Naturally, ask questions and rough out a diagram, we'll help as you go along. No need to show the Triple Shot wiring, for these purposes you can just treat that as a "black box".

[cem]

My Les Paul came to life with Suhr Thornbucker pickups. I recommend them to anyone who wants paf type tones.

Thanks for your help newey it worked.

But now i want to take the triple shots off. First of all it looks weird and its too hard to use live. But thanks to them, i know what i want now. Solo switch was nice but it is not a necessity. The no load tone pots are not as useful as having them on 250k pots.

I'm not sure if this is possible but i want to have the out of phase, parallel(both pickups), inside coils(both pups), and outside coils(both pups) options using the push pull pots.
So something like this would be awesome:

Neck volume: Coil split both pickups
Neck tone: When it's down, the outside coils are on when the neck volume push pull is up. When it's up, the inside coils are activated when the neck volume push pull is up.
Bridge volume: Both pickups are in parallel.
Bridge tone: Out of phase

I wouldn't mind if pulling both volume push pulls would kill all output.
If this is impossible i am open to suggestions.

Thanks in advance. 

Edit: Now that i think about it, it would be more user friendly if the neck volume push pull activated outside coils and neck tone pushpull activated the inside coils.

[newey]

Oct 3, 2020 12:45:30 GMT -5 cem said:

Neck tone: When it's down, the outside coils are on when the neck volume push pull is up. When it's up, the inside coils are activated when the neck volume push pull is up.

Edit: Now that i think about it, it would be more user friendly if the neck volume push pull activated outside coils and neck tone pushpull activated the inside coils.

Again, we're splitting both pickups at once? Either way is possible. You might consider having the one P/P select which coils get split only if the first P/P is up. This would avoid a possible "dead spot" if both coil slpit switches are pulled up together, although a bit of clever wiring might be able to avoid that.

What you're seeking is, basically, a variation on the Jimmy Page LP wiring. JohnH's Jimmy Page scheme basically has everything you want, although ordered a bit differently. But this scheme has the advantage of being "ready to go", it's been successfully built many times. Rather than "reinventing the wheel", you should give it your consideration.

EDIT: One advantage of the JP design is that the HBs can be split individually, giving you the 2 HB/SC combos. Yoou miss those if you use one switch to coil-cut both HBs at once.

[cem]

These are nice designs but i don't get parallel on both pickups.(I'm talking about making each pickup go parallel, not the middle position[N+B])



Being able to choose which pickup to split is cool but i don't like HB/SC combos personally.



Neck Volume: Split both pickups at once(outside coils)

Neck Tone: Split both pickups at once(inside coils)

Bridge Volume: Make both pickups parallel humbuckers at once(as opposed to the regular way of using humbuckers which is in series)

Bridge Tone: Out of phase

If you can point me towards an existing diagram which has these features that would be awesome but i couldn't find one.
Or if someone could draw it for me i would be glad.

Thanks a trillion

[newey]

Oct 4, 2020 9:29:14 GMT -5 cem said:

Bridge Volume: Make both pickups parallel humbuckers at once(as opposed to the regular way of using humbuckers which is in series)

To switch one HB between series/parallel requires both poles of a P/P switch. To do both HBs at once would require 4 poles (4PDT). These exist as a toggle switch, but not as a P/P pot.

These are nice designs but i don't get parallel on both pickups.(I'm talking about making each pickup go parallel, not the middle position[N+B])

The classic LP wiring (as well as virtually every 2 HB-equipped guitar) wires the 2 coils of each HB in series, but then combines the 2 HBs in parallel with each other (when in position 2 of the 3-way switch). The JP LP has a series/parallel switch to put the 2 HBs in either series or parallel with each other, but it is the series setting that is the non-standard option. If wired in a standard fashion, your 2 HBs are already wired in parallel when combinedd (i.e., N + B).

[cem]

Hmm. I don't want to use a toggle switch since i want to keep the classic look but i dont want to lose the parallel option.

I will keep the triple shots then. But i want to change a couple of things in this current wiring.

I will underline the changes.

Neck Volume Push-Pull: Solo switch (Bypasses everything and activates the bridge no matter which pickup is selected except for the toggle switch so that i can choose between pickups or use both.)
Bridge Volume Push-Pull: Out of phase switch
Neck Tone Push-Pull: No load for neck tone pot both tone pots(Is this possible?)
Bridge Tone Push-Pull: No load for bridge tone pot System series/parallel (overrides the 3-way, so it does not matter where it is set when switching to series, just like in JohnH's Jimmy Page wiring)

If this is all possible, can you give me instructions on which wires i need to change for this when you have the time?

[newey]

Oct 5, 2020 15:40:56 GMT -5 cem said:

If this is all possible, can you give me instructions on which wires i need to change for this when you have the time?

I could, if I knew what wiring you had in there now. But apart from the triple shots, I don't know what you have wired at present.

Neck Tone Push-Pull: No load for neck tone pot both tone pots(Is this possible?)

I don't know what you mean by this. Making a pot "no load" involves cutting the track inside the pot. You could use the P/P to bypass both tone pots, which would mimic having no-load pots. But then, you'd have to push in the switch to operate your tone controls. Is this what you want?

The series/parallel switch, phase switch, and solo switch are all doable.

[cem]

This is the wiring i have:

Neck Volume Push-Pull: Blower switch (Bypasses everything and activates the bridge no matter which pickup is selected.)
Bridge Volume Push-Pull: Out of phase switch
Neck Tone Push-Pull: No load for neck tone pot
Bridge Tone Push-Pull: No load for bridge tone pot

You told me how to wire this in the 4th reply in this thread.


This is the wiring i want:

Neck Volume Push-Pull: Solo switch (Bypasses everything and activates the bridge no matter which pickup is selected except for the toggle switch so that i can choose between pickups or use both.)
Bridge Volume Push-Pull: Out of phase switch
Neck Tone Push-Pull: No load for both tone pots(Is this possible?)
Bridge Tone Push-Pull: System series/parallel (overrides the 3-way, so it does not matter where it is set when switching to series, just like in JohnH's Jimmy Page wiring)

What i mean by "no load for both tone pots" is I want both tone pots to be bypassed out of the circuit. Is this possible?

[newey]

Oct 5, 2020 17:39:32 GMT -5 cem said:

I want both tone pots to be bypassed out of the circuit. Is this possible?

Yes, that is possible.

OK, so just to be clear, the only changes being made are:

1) Neck Volume P/P: bypasses V and T pots, but acts on 3-way switch setting (change from now, where switch activates bridge pickup alone)

2) Bridge Volume P/P: phase switch- stays unchanged from present wiring.

3) Neck tone P/P: Disconnects both tone pots from circuit (change from current wiring which disconnects only the neck tone pot).

4) Bridge Tone P/P: Series/Parallel switch, overriding 3-way (Change from current wiring of this P/P).

Let me see what I can pull together, may be a few days though.

[cem]

newey 

[newey]

sorry, cem, real life has intruded. It may be a week or so before I can do a diagram.

[cem]

Bump

[newey]

OK, I've started roughing out a diagram for you.

[cem]

Yay

[newey]

OK, cem, here's what I come up with. Please note that my confidence level that this is right is not very high. And, given the level of complexity here, it may be awhile before someone else volunteers to spend their time tracing it all out. So don't start wiring it just yet . . .

A few notes about the diagram. First, I have only shown grounding of the pickup negative wires and I show the V and T pots being grounded to the backs of the pots. For the sake of clarity, I have omittted all the other grounds, as well as the output jack. If you use the backs of the pot shells for grounding, you will need to collect all of those grounds together with the jack ground. I also omitted the string/bridge ground, as well as any grounding of the switch casings.

Second, wires which cross each other are not connected, unless there is a black dot showing that connection. Obviously, you don't make a solder connection in the middle of a wire; the connection goes to the next lug down the line.

[cem]

Hey newey thank you so much for this

[cem]

newey the wiring is finally done. I don't know what went wrong but the wiring behaves quite differently now.

Neck Volume pot acts like a kill switch on all positions, unless neck tone and/or bridge tone is on which turns the sound back on but there is no difference in tone.

Neck tone pot by itself does nothing.

Bridge tone pot overrides the 3 way switch and activates Neck pickup on all positions.

Bridge volume pot works as intended as a phase switch.

But thankfully, if you dont turn any of the switches on on the guitar, it behaves just like it should lol

So can anyone help? If someone could proofread this it would be awesome. Or did my eyes miss something?

[newey]

Sorry that you're having trouble, cem. I was hoping we'd get someone else to vet my diagram beforehand, but unfortunately no one did so.

I'm at work right now, so let me review this later and I'll see if I can get you some answers

[cem]

Bump 

[newey]

Jan 21, 2021 10:59:27 GMT -5 cem said:

Bridge tone pot overrides the 3 way switch and activates Neck pickup on all positions.

The bridge tone pot is supposed to override the 3-way switch, but it's also supposed to give both pickups in series. It looks like there is an error in my diagram at that switch. I'll need to go through this thoroughly again, hopefully that's the only error I spot.

[cem]

Bump

[newey]

Sorry, cem, to have neglected you on this. I really need someone to double check this diagram for me.

I do spot one error (there may be more). The brown wire that runs from the bridge tone pot to the output jack is wrong. If you remove that wire, the series parallel switch on the bridge tone pot should work (again, as I see it), but will only work when the 3-way switch is set to the Bridge pickup position. The goal was to have the series/parallel switch work regardless of the position of the 3-way switch, but I can't figure out how to make that happen without having to add more switching.

You've been more than patient with me, cem. Let me see if I can get someone to help us with this.

[Yogi B]

Feb 6, 2021 8:34:31 GMT -5 newey said:

Let me see if I can get someone to help us with this.

On multiple occasions I've opened this thread in a new tab after it's been bumped, but until now have never gotten around to looking closely at it.

I'm not worrying about your diagram yet, as I think there's a more fundamental problem:

Oct 5, 2020 17:39:32 GMT -5 cem said:

Neck Volume Push-Pull: Solo switch (Bypasses everything and activates the bridge no matter which pickup is selected except for the toggle switch so that i can choose between pickups or use both.)

Everything else seems reasonable enough, but I don't think this particular option is possible with a regular push-pull.

In order to properly bypass a single set of volume & tone controls requires two switch poles, so you'd need a 4PDT to bypass all four neck & bridge controls (and an even larger switch if you also want to bypass the series switching).

As I see it there's three options:

• Keep it as per your original wiring, a bridge solo switch, this would be the only option to truly bypass everything including the series override switch;
• Make it a max volume switch, both volumes wouldn't be completely removed from the circuit, but would act as though they were set at maximum -- neither the tone controls nor the series switch would be bypassed;
• Partially bypass the volumes & tones of both pickups, this will remove the parallel loading of both the volume & tone pots, but will instead add some series resistance (between zero and 1/4 of the volume pot's value, depending on their position) -- this series resistance will cause the capacitance of your cable to cut highs (though, treble bleed's would eliminate most of this) additionally this won't play nice with certain low input impedance pedals (e.g. Fuzz Faces), finally once again the series switch will not be bypassed.

[cem]

Hey Yogi B 

Well in that case i would go with the first option. The way it was before as a bridge solo switch was actually quite useful.

[Yogi B]

This is what I've got, I don't know that I'm super happy with it, but it should give you what you're after. The bridge solo switch is wired after phase switch (doesn't bypass it), but that doesn't really matter since only the bridge pickup will be selected.

Also the multiple conductor / shielded wire is merely a suggestion -- so long as everything shown to be connected is done so, it should be fine -- it just kept things a little more organised.

[cem]

Yogi B you are a life saver. I came back to bump this thread again, then i saw your diagram. You've made my month 

By the way, I also want to try a different treble bleed on this guitar. I like it as it is right now but the taper is bugging me(150k with 1nf cap in parallel).
According to this article from seymour duncan, wiring them in series would solve that problem.
3 Popular Treble Bleed Mods: What You Need to Know

I have read alot of threads about treble bleeds on this forum. How come have i never come across this before. Did i miss it?

What are your thoughts on wiring a treble bleed in series? Any pros/cons?