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Post by ourclarioncall on Oct 2, 2020 19:20:32 GMT -5
I’m just thinking out loud , but if I had the ability to build amps , I had the idea of having just one channel deluxe reverb and get rid of the other channel and get rid of the reverb and get rid of the tremelo. Would everything else stay the same ? As in I would still need the same amount of tubes, the same transformers etc .
Maybe there is already a circuit like that ? As weren’t fender circuits quite similar?
So yeah, one channel, vol , treble , bass. Maybe a middle , and maybe a master volume. Just a really simple good clean Amp that would make a nice pedal platform too
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Post by newey on Oct 4, 2020 8:32:08 GMT -5
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Post by ourclarioncall on Oct 4, 2020 8:44:05 GMT -5
Cost wise , I wonder how much money would be saved by getting rid of the second channel , the reverb and the Tremelo
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Post by reTrEaD on Oct 4, 2020 8:45:33 GMT -5
Maybe there is already a circuit like that ? As weren’t fender circuits quite similar? The closest to what you described would be a Fender Princeton (Blackface or Silverface series). But that uses a cathodyne phase inverter rather than the long-tailed pair found in the other Fender push-pull amps of that era. I'm not sure I'd throw the 'similar' blanket on Fender amps unless you were talking about a specific era. There are significant changes in the architecture from the woodie/tweeds to the brown/blonde and then to the blackface/silverface. Tweeds had an oddball treble-cut/treble-boost tone control wrapped around the volume control. And the treble boost function became ineffective if you dimed the volume control. (Much like the bright switches on some of the later amps.) Some (not all) of the models during that era had a negative feedback loop. Some of the amps used cathode bias for the output tubes, others used fixed bias. The higher powered amps of the brown/blonde era used a sophisticated tremolo circuit where the balance between a high-cut circuit and a low-cut circuit was varied by the low-frequency oscillator. They also had a Presence control that removed high-frequency content from the NFB loop when you rotated the control clockwise. This effectively functioned as a treble-boost. They also used a tone-stack rather than the one-knob tone control. Smaller amps like the Princeton and Deluxe retained the one-knob tone control, didn't have the Presence control, and the tremolo modulated the bias on the output tube with the LFO. During the Blackface/Silverface era the tone-shift tremolo was retired and all amps either modulated the bias on the output tubes or drove and incandescent bulb with the LFO and used a light-dependent resistor to modulate the amplitude of the preamp output.
Dropping the reverb for a stripped-down clean amp would save a lot of cost. You wouldn't need the tank, driver tube, driver transformer, and recovery tube. Dropping the tremolo saves you a tube for the LFO. The power transformer, rectifier, choke, output transformer, and output tubes could all be the same as the DR. You'd only need two dual triodes, one for the two preamp stages of your single channel and one for the long-tailed-pair PI. Although you could have only one preamp channel, I think it would make a lot of sense to have two. That way you could have one with the Fender tonestack. The other with a James (treble cut/boost, bass cut/boost) tone circuit, ala Ampeg. I'd also add a Presence control to the NFB loop and bright switch on each channel, which the DR never had. |
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Post by ourclarioncall on Oct 4, 2020 9:04:55 GMT -5
Thanks guys
Just spent a bit of time researching all the deluxe reverb variations
I like the look of the 68 custom that has a Bassman tone stack
The deluxe reverb 2 with the Paul Rivera mods is also Interesting
Also just watched a series of a guy converting a Modern 65 deluxe reverb Reissue to handwired with a few extra mods.
So...
Would adding a second channel be relatively easy and low cost ? Do you need extra tubes for the extra channel or they just share ?
Why not 3 channels or 4? Just be use of space inside the chassis ? Tradition? Also why not inputs that have the channel jumpered or “linked” like they have on the HiWatt amps
What about a deluxe reverb with 4 Footswitchable channels that can be individually selected or all on at the same time ? Would this make the sound four times thicker ? Or would it sound like an amp that has 4 speakers like a Bassman ? Or is a Bassman just spreading the sound of one channel over 4 speakers? But the extra speakers would have to thicken things up a bit right ?
Once my creative mind gets going lol
No need to answer all my ramblings lol
It’s a good job I don’t have the electrical knowledge and skills my wife and kids might never see me for days at a time 😁
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Post by thetragichero on Oct 4, 2020 9:40:15 GMT -5
hold up, is minimalism out the door now?
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Post by ourclarioncall on Oct 4, 2020 9:43:44 GMT -5
hold up, is minimalism out the door now? lol 😆 you got me |
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Post by ourclarioncall on Oct 4, 2020 9:53:24 GMT -5
What is it that’s makes the deluxe sound so good ? The 12 inch speaker? The higher wattage ? The transformers ?
If I started stripping a deluxe reverb back and started changing things like speaker size , lowering output , when would it lose its majic? And cease to sound like a deluxe reverb ?
How far could you go in cost cutting and reduction? Not that I would want to be just curious
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Post by reTrEaD on Oct 4, 2020 10:35:53 GMT -5
What is it that’s makes the deluxe sound so good ? The 12 inch speaker? The higher wattage ? The transformers ? So good? Which Deluxe, compared to which other amp? Fender used speakers from a variety of different manufacturers ... Oxford, CTS, Utah, Rola, and my personal favorite: Jensen. And depending on the production run, you might get one brand of speaker or another, in the same amp. Given the same amp and the same size speaker(s), the brand of speaker they used in a particular amp will have a definite effect on the tone. As to which one would sound best, that tends to be subjective. The 6V6GTs used in a DR are capable of less power output than the 5881s and 6L6s in the larger amps. So if you're pushing those pretty close to their max, you'll start to get a bit of crunch where a larger amp remains clean. I think the 6v6s sound better when they begin to distort than do 6L6s, and they do so at lower output power. Personally I like the sound of a Super when those 4 10s are moving a lot of air. But that's pretty darned loud. I think a Deluxe driving 4 10s rather than a single 12 might be interesting. Especially if the 4 10s were Jensen. If you're comparing a Deluxe to a Champ or Bronco, those are entirely different animals. The Champ and Bronco are single-ended amps. If I was building an amp I wouldn't give any consideration whatsoever to cost-cutting. Keeping it simple would be okay if I was focused on deleting things I didn't ever intend to use. Other than that, pony up for whatever it takes to get you where you want to go. |
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Post by ourclarioncall on Oct 4, 2020 11:42:35 GMT -5
Agreed , I love the super reverb sound. Well, I’ve never played one or heard one in real life, but all the ones I’ve heard on YouTube . Same for deluxe reverbs (generally they all sound the danish to me , well , they fit into a recognisable category of that makes sense, even with the variation in speakers etc)
I think I played one once in a music store but the reverb sounded bad. I’m not a fan of spring reverb at all (*ducking for cover*), well it’s quite nice at a low setting but after that ...
Agreed, if I was building an amp I would go for the most expensive parts I could get
The cost cutting was just a hypothetical way of thinking through at what point something too valuable sound wise will be lost.
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Post by thetragichero on Oct 4, 2020 12:37:05 GMT -5
most expensive != best, which is why I'll almost never be using a mercury magnetics transformer (unless i get a killer deal on it)
unfortunately guitarists often "hear with their eyes" when it comes to electrical things. that's why you have guys spending big bucks on piher resistors and other such nonsense
not saying you have to go Leo Fender cheap with it but it just make you think how all those coveted amps were made but such a spendthrift. maybe design trumps component selection
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Post by ourclarioncall on Oct 4, 2020 12:47:09 GMT -5
After everything I’ve read and watched , transformers seem to stand out as being a key part to getting a good amp
What’s the scoop with transformers ? Don’t they have a simple enough job? How can they improve the overall sound of the amp? What do they contribute ?
Yeah, I heard it said vintage fenders Just used cheap components , so that’s an interesting point about possibly design being more important than component quality
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Post by ourclarioncall on Oct 4, 2020 13:06:28 GMT -5
Could you guys build an amp from scratch ?
For say a qualified electrician who has had say 2 to 4 years electrical training, would be quite easy to build or design your own amps ?
Could I learn to do it myself by taking an unconventional learning curve? Or would getting proper electrical training accelerate my ability to understand what I’m doing?
I kind of struggle with taking in detached information. I don’t seem to be able to retain it. Hands on is defiantly better for me and asking questions . “If I touch that will I get electrocuted ? “ “yes” “oh , why’s that?” “It’s because blah blah”
Working inside amps is a bit of big deal with safety concerns . In some ways it might be good to make oneself at least get some basic school/college qualifications to get some proper foundations.
The link I shared about discharging caps , there was a comment that warned him to be careful of how he prepare the resistor leg to be soldered to the wire with the aligator clip attached (for discharging caps)
The guy was saying watch how you bend the leg as you may have a sharp end of the leg that can pierce through the heat shrink insulation and you’ll get shocked .
The channel owner took the correction humbly so good on him , but I was surprised that he was not aware of that danger . Which then led me to wonder if the guy had any electrical qualification or was just sort of self taught.
I have nothing against learning outside of taking formal qualifications, but a school /education environment is usually pretty good for establishing safety and best practices as the colleges and teachers have to prioritise safety when letting beginners work with electricity .
I did wonder if the channel owner should perhaps put some warnings or disclaimers up on his videos .
I quite like uncle Doug as he is an older Experienced dude , and he seems to have a background in teaching and makes regular points about safety.
I don’t mind electrocuting myself, but I think I would be very cautious in showing other people in YouTube vids how to do things when I don’t really have a clue what I’m doing.
I just had a look online and there were about 3 places in the U.K. that do 1 to 4 day amp building courses. You buy an amp and build it under their supervision. . Quite expensive tho
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Post by sumgai on Oct 4, 2020 23:42:52 GMT -5
I just had a look online and there were about 3 places in the U.K. that do 1 to 4 day amp building courses. You buy an amp and build it under their supervision. . Quite expensive tho That surprises the hell out of me. I mean, if I were doing this sort of thing, I wouldn't let you within a country mile of my place unless you proffered a signed waiver of indemnity, and had a properly qualified Barrister counter-sign it as well, to prove that you had received sound legal advice regarding your forthcoming adventure. As to the rest of your post, yes you should have at least a year of the fundamentals at the high-school level before embarking on a "design and build your own amp" adventure. College level courses tend to repeat that high-school stuff, in case your teacher was not up-to-snuff. And for the cost versus functionality argument, do recall that most of the designs you've been speaking about (and which reTrEaD gently embellished for you) were brought to fruition in the 1950s and 1960s. At that time, war surplus items were littered so deeply across the countryside that you couldn't walk 30 feet out your front door without tripping over a box of transformers from a 100 transmitter, etc, etc. Do I design and build amps? Yes, with ease. But it wasn't until I had put about 13 or 14 years of technical jobs under my belt before I got into Engineering school. Prior to that, I was just dinking around, so to speak. More luck and chutzpah than anything else. Want to do a little more research? Dig a little deeper under the skirts of all those famous boo-teek amp makers. Learn for yourself just how many of them are actually Electrical Engineers, and the rest of them are just lucky so-and-so's who happen to hit on a decent combination that appeals to a large enough segment of the custom amp market. Might surprise you.  HTH sumgai p.s. Do recall that neither Leo nor any of his staff were Engineers in any sense of the word. Gibson, Ampeg, Standell, MagnaTone, and others, they all had Engineers on staff, and turned out some pretty decent stuff. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Oct 5, 2020 10:10:30 GMT -5
I don’t mind electrocuting myself, but I think I would be very cautious in showing other people in YouTube vids how to do things when I don’t really have a clue what I’m doing. whatisthisidonteven Yes, there's something that's beyond wrong with posting youtube videos that are inherently dangerous. Endangering others is more wrong than endangering yourself. But to say you don't mind electrocuting yourself is a very strange thing to say. The voltages inside a tube amp can literally kill you. You don't mind dying? Really? Let's fix that right now. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Oct 5, 2020 10:33:45 GMT -5
That's a good statement, taken with a grain of salt. What costs most isn't always best. And even when the most expensive is best, is it appreciably better than something less expensive? Let's take the infamous paper-in-oil debate. Take a great amp that happens to use a lot of paper-in-oil caps. Replace all the PiOs with ceramics. Can you hear the difference? Damned right you can! Instead of ceramics, try polystyrene or one of the many varieties of 'poly' film caps. Can you hear the difference? Probably not. Maybe, but even if there is a difference it's barely audible, unlike the difference in cost which will leave your wallet screaming at you. The bottom line: Don't be afraid to do some research and spend a few extra pennies on a component that will make a huge difference. But don't spend extra tens of dollars on a component that will make a difference that is inaudible. At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it. |
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Post by newey on Oct 5, 2020 11:00:10 GMT -5
For say a qualified electrician who has had say 2 to 4 years electrical training, would be quite easy to build or design your own amps ? "Building" and "designing" are worlds apart. One could take a schematic of a proven design and build it without needing "2 to 4 years of electrical training" (note that I did not say "without any training" . . .). Designing an amp is a whole 'nother thing. If, as a hobbyist, you want to learn the skills needed and tackle an amp project because you find the learning process, and later the actual building process, interesting to do, then have at it. I'd say to start with a simple kit for a low-wattage tube amp for starters, before tackling something like a Deluxe Reverb. But the idea that you're going to do this to save money, or to get something that you can't get elsewhere, is(IMO) pretty ludicrous. Your time has a value, and avoiding lots of frustration can only help one's mental health. Expect to spend lots of time, and expect lots of frustration. Writing a check to have someone sell you an amp, or writing an even bigger check to have someone build you a custom amp, only hurts for a minute or two . . . Tragichero is our resident amp guru around here. I'm sure he'd tell you about his learning curve on this stuff- and how much better and quicker he can do these builds now that he has over a dozen under his belt. If you're looking for a start into building things electronic, why not start with a pedal project or two? Low cost, no danger, a good way to advance your soldering skills, and you're much more likely to end up with something useable in a much shorter time frame. Baby steps, that's all I'm saying here. |
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Post by thetragichero on Oct 5, 2020 11:51:49 GMT -5
without a doubt baby steps. there was a hot on the bass forum who wanted to build a big 100w hiwatt amp straight off the bat and this is what i told him:
by all means i do my best learning by doing what i shouldn't have done first and having to clean up the mess. things like: when repurposing a steel chassis for an amp build, do all your painting and labeling after drilling but before building having to figure out how to disassemble a working amp that is now on a rusting chassis so that you can coat and label it is enough of an undertaking that it'll just sit in the corner for a year or more
don't be AFRAID if electricity and the potential to be shocked, but have RESPECT for its power (really this is how driving a car should be)
take copious notes. what doesn't work and (hopefully) why. what works. how you got it from not working to working. do your planning and layout on a piece of paper before plugging in
build yourself a current-limiting device. it becomes cheaper than fuses (because you'll always end up blowing your last fuse of proper value at 5 o'clock on a Sunday) and way cheaper than sold state output devices. check and double check and take voltage readings and follow a "new amp startup" sequence on any number of informative sites
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d and throwing it out the door. do a couple. there's some awesome things you can do with pt2399 be delay chips and not a hell of a lot of components