AlNiCo V versus AlNiCo II magnets

[pablogilberto]

Anyone here who were able to do some comparison on AlNiCo V versus AlNiCo II magnets on humbucker styles (with steel polepiece) and Strat styles (where poles are the magnets)?

I mean, if everything is held the same (except for the magnets), what will be the differences?

I'd like to see your results and want to learn more about their difference electrically and sonically.

Thanks a lot!

[thetragichero]

only anecdotal. the bc rich i had came with rockfield alnico 2 humbuckers, closer to vintage than hot sound. just sounded dull and lifeless. replaced the neck with alnico 5 and the bridge with alnico 8 and that really brought it to life

[Yew]

Generally, I've found that V is slightly louder and has a 'fatter' sound, whereas II is slightly more balanced and even.

Secondly, we have to consider construction, as lots of V pickups are wound hotter also, which somewhat complicates the distinctions.

[antigua]

A stronger magnet pulls on the strings harder in the specific location of the pickup, and for the same reason that pinch harmonics sound different where you touch the string, the resulting sound differs depending on where the pickup is.

Interestingly, the pickup is most sensitive to the changes it's own magnetic pull makes. For example, raising and lowering the neck pickup alters harmonics that are mostly transferred by the neck pickup, and the same is true of the neck and middle pickup, so if you raise the middle pickup while the neck pickup is selected, you will hear a difference from the neck pickup, but not as much of a difference as you hear if the middle pickup is selected. 

In the same respect that pinch harmonics reduce low harmonics / fundamental and transfer energy to smaller harmonic divisions of string movement, the magnetic pull has the same effect. As the pickup is moved closer to the strings, or if a stronger magnet is used, for example, the 3rd harmonic will become a little quieter and the 4th will become a little louder. In general that can be described as an increase in treble, but variances in harmonics alter the timbre also, which is why raising or lowering the pickups doesn't act as a simple tone control, and it additionally changes character of the sound, very slightly. 

[ziggystardust723]

That's very True.!
So don't forget than Alnico2 of 'Today' > isv Alnico5 from Yesterday.
& the Real Vintage Sound is Alnico3
= less Attack, but More Medium Sound.
(& so: don't think an Alnico2 is always better in Neck:
The most important is a Thinner Wire)
- Ziggy (66yo, winding pus..).

[gckelloch]

Old thread, but interesting. It may also be that a magnet with a weaker field strength creates more cancellations in the coil as the outside flux lines curve back closer to the coil, and depending on how far the pole screws stick out.

John Suhr stated that he uses a kind of softer/weaker AlNiCo V that Fender started using in the early '60s so they didn't have to bevel the poles to hide the chips when they were cut. There are different types of AlNiCo II as well, like that being used by DiMarzio and Wilde. FI, the higher heat-sintered type might be more like that AlNiCo V, but I dunno. Maybe all new pickups have the newer AlNiCO II type now? The pickups Wilde uses AlNiCo II in are not in the least bit dull sounding.

Not sure why you'd want thinner wire in the neck pos. A denser coil increases fundamental note strength, of which there is plenty in the neck pos. If anything I'd want that in the bridge pos. You can simply raise the pole screws in the neck pos and lower the coil to reduce note fundamentals.

[ziggystardust723]

About Alnico2, 3 or 5 (&8!..),
for every body it's a Choice..
But for Vintage Tone it's Nbr3.
- For Neck Pickups:
Place being nearer the 12th Fret
> Needs Thinner Wire like Awg43 than we can Find on Telies since 1949,
> & Leo 7ender Changed the Bridge Wire Awg43 for Awg42 Bigger in 1953 for More Presence, cause just Near the Saddles where the Vibrations of Strings are '0'..
= Since 1953: the Tele is the 0nly 1Guitar with Equilibrate Sounding,
& latter: the Mexico Tele Nashville.
(I'm 66yo, & Wind PUs since 8y with 8 difft Wires, on a Schatten, Canada)
- Ziggy (from Paris,France. 14H45)

[gckelloch]

May 5, 2021 7:45:22 GMT -5 ziggystardust723 said:

About Alnico2, 3 or 5 (&8!..),
for every body it's a Choice..
But for Vintage Tone it's Nbr3.
- For Neck Pickups:
Place being nearer the 12th Fret
> Needs Thinner Wire like Awg43 than we can Find on Telies since 1949,
> & Leo 7ender Changed the Bridge Wire Awg43 for Awg42 Bigger in 1953 for More Presence, cause just Near the Saddles where the Vibrations of Strings are '0'..
= Since 1953: the Tele is the 0nly 1Guitar with Equilibrate Sounding,
& latter: the Mexico Tele Nashville.
(I'm 66yo, & Wind PUs since 8y with 8 difft Wires, on a Schatten, Canada)
- Ziggy (from Paris,France. 14H45)

Again, there is a type of AlNiCo II that is very close in spec to AlNiCo III, as used in Wilde and Dimarzio "Area" series pickups. I think it only requires a slight pole length increase to achieve virtually the same result as an AlNiCO III pole. I highly doubt anyone could tell a difference in an A/B double-blind test.

The lower harmonics of each string are the most reduced compared to the upper harmonics at the bridge pos. Leo may have simply wanted more of a tonal contrast from the bridge pickup because the neck pickup was originally intended to comp bass lines.

Your statement "the Tele is the 0nly 1Guitar with Equilibrate Sounding,
& latter: the Mexico Tele Nashville." is highly subjective. I believe my set of Wilde Microcoils can be set up for better loudness balance than any other pickup due to the pole screw alloys and that the extremely dense & small coils create more note timbre difference with smaller height adjustments than coils wound with thicker wire. Prove me wrong. ;-)

I imagine you make very nice pickups and I don't wish to disparage you or your work, but pickup winding experience will not teach anyone about the relevant physics. Claiming otherwise is referred to as the "appeal to authority" debate tactic fallacy. More experience does not necessarily equal better understanding.

[ziggystardust723]

It's as you please..
Winding since 8y, 'cause my Hears did't were able to support the Factory Sound of all my Elec Guitars:
= Wound with Automatic-Machine:
- Winding is So Regular, like their Sound,
- when you Wind in 'Hand-Guided'* mode, you get the 'Real Sound', it's not a psychyc vue or anything..
- For Neck PU: you Need a Thinner Wire, cause the Presence of Sound, Nor less 0hms:
- 0n a thrue Tele: the little Neck PU is around 7,7k 0hms with Awg43,
- & the Big Bridge PU is near 6,5k in #42, cause bigger wire for more Presence near the Saddles: where Vibration Strings become '0'..
(*like Real 7ender 1948/end'64, in January '65 CBS Bought 7ender & made all pickups in Factory mode, & Less Turns..)
- Winding since 8y now, I'm able to understand many things on Pickups..
- & I'm able to make Strato (or Tele etc) with same Look & same '0riginal Sound' Without Buzz,
> as 'Silencious' as 'PAF' or any HB.
Bye, Ziggy (from France, 3h55)

[gckelloch]

May 6, 2021 20:55:21 GMT -5 ziggystardust723 said:

It's as you please..
Winding since 8y, 'cause my Hears did't were able to support the Factory Sound of all my Elec Guitars:
= Wound with Automatic-Machine:
- Winding is So Regular, like their Sound,
- when you Wind in 'Hand-Guided'* mode, you get the 'Real Sound', it's not a psychyc vue or anything..
- For Neck PU: you Need a Thinner Wire, cause the Presence of Sound, Nor less 0hms:
- 0n a thrue Tele: the little Neck PU is around 7,7k 0hms with Awg43,
- & the Big Bridge PU is near 6,5k in #42, cause bigger wire for more Presence near the Saddles: where Vibration Strings become '0'..
(*like Real 7ender 1948/end'64, in January '65 CBS Bought 7ender & made all pickups in Factory mode, & Less Turns..)
- Winding since 8y now, I'm able to understand many things on Pickups..
- & I'm able to make Strato (or Tele etc) with same Look & same '0riginal Sound' Without Buzz,
> as 'Silencious' as 'PAF' or any HB.
Bye, Ziggy (from France, 3h55)

There are some things lost in translation, but I'll try to address any misconceptions.

Many digital winding machines can wind pickups like any hand winder can, but without the tension inconsistencies that can cause increased capacitance or semi-shorts. Winding patterns that include intermittent diagonal winds just reduce efficiency and fundamental note strength.

Even though the lower harmonics per string are greatly reduced at the bridge, there are actually more higher harmonics present than at the neck. Increasing the upper-harmonic balance is in no way necessary, but purely a personal choice. Tele Bridge PUP's traditionally have Brass or Steel base-plates that roll off the high end via eddy currents. That may be why 42AWG wire was preferred there, but there are other ways to deal with that issue. Thinner-wire/lower-wind-count coils situated up close to the strings improve efficiency & fundamental note strength while allowing the resonance peak to be more easily placed above the piercing 3-3.5kHz range to deliver better technique articulation without the harshness. Higher pot values will increase the peak level if desired.

The PAF design isn't actually that silent due to the core alloy imbalance. Some may consider that part of the charm, but not me.

Players will buy pickups if they like how they sound in a given guitar, so all the technical stuff doesn't really matter that much.

[ziggystardust723]

As you Answer, I can suppose you don't Wind..
- Ziggy (from France, 16h05)

[gckelloch]

Yep, and I also don't draw conclusions about reality from myths or trial & error. You will never understand the relevant physics that way. Doesn't matter how long anyone winds pickups, like many b4 you, you are mistaken about several factors. I learned much of what I know from studying, inquiring with actual engineers and physisists, and from the late Bill Lawrence who taught Leo Fender some pertinent things. Some of what you claim has been debunked long ago, bro. You might sublimate your ego and try asking some of the engineers on this forum about some of these things. Other people might start paying some attention to you then. I'd be glad to discuss things further after you've done some real research.

[ziggystardust723]

You don't Wind Pickups, & say you 'heard of this ot that', & think know many things,
I understand more..
- Ziggy (France, 17h43)

[gckelloch]

I'm sure you've learned some basics about how to get a certain sound. That's fine, but you misunderstand some core principles. Stating you know more than me won't help you learn anything, and only reveals a fragile ego. I've been studying and learning from the real masters for ~15 years, but don't take my word for it. Facts be facts, and you are mistaken about some critical factors. You'd know that if you were willing to learn from those who know more than you. Are you willing to learn? FI, you stated in another thread that hex screws are more conductive. Do you even know how different alloys affect a coil and why? Any decent pickup designer these days has a good understanding of that stuff. Incidentely, Bill Lawrence (aka WIlli L Stitch) mentored a 17 year old Larry DiMarzio on pickups when he apprenticed in the same shop back in the day.

Don't get me wrong, you can make good money propegating myths, hype and magical thinking like only hand-winding can get the real sound and other such nonsense. AFAIC, you are just wasting my time, and yours at this point. Check out these two websites if you want to get the facts:

www.billlawrence.com/Pages/All_About_Tone.htm/Pickupology.htm

lawingmusicalproducts.com/dr-lawings-blog

Dr. Scott Lawing only has a Phd from MIT, Cambride MA. Surely you know more than he does about the subject.
He's also a down-to-earth guy. He might be willing to give you some pointers if you are willing to sublimate your ego.