Fx loop volume control

[ourclarioncall]

a few questions on the point of this 

Which I think is to bring the volume down to manageable levels because the volume pot on the amp jumps from nothing to too loud.

is there not a better smoother volume pot that can be installed so the volume creeps up more slowly ? If there is why don’t fender have these as standard ?

another question , this box is going in the fx loop. Could you just use any normal stomp box to do the same thing? As a stomp box will have a volume control on it . Obviously the downside to this would be that you would have to have the effect from the stomp box on at the same time 

[newey]

Oct 18, 2020 9:43:43 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

Obviously the downside to this would be that you would have to have the effect from the stomp box on at the same time 

Well, the effect in question might just be a volume pedal, so . . .

Which I think is to bring the volume down to manageable levels because the volume pot on the amp jumps from nothing to too loud.

No, the idea is to be able to overdrive the preamp tubes so as to get the much-beloved tube distortion, but at lower sound pressure levels from the speaker(s).

[ourclarioncall]

Why don’t amps have a volume pot after every stage of amplification ? 

im just thinking through every stage here

so it starts with the guitar pickup which sends out a signal , then you have a volume pot that loads down that signal and can diminish it to nothing. Then you go in the amp and hit the preamp tube and then there is usually always a volume pot after the preamp that loads down the signal and can be diminished to nothing

then what is next? Or what could be next if you were to add in as much control as possible ?

im guessing that a master volume comes after the power amp tube to load down the finished signal before it hits the speaker ?

EDIT: oh yeah , we just discussed that would be dangerous. But that’s what one of these Weber type attenuators do isnt it? They go between the power tube and speaker

But maybe it comes before ? Or can come after or before?

[thetragichero]

volume control is never after the power tube. we've discussed this
master volume is either before or after the phase inverter. the location (and master volume type, we generally use types 1, 2, 3 from the Trainwreck pages) and presence or absence is a design choice
i generally do not build amps with master volume controls out of personal preference. i just prefer the sounds available with the master volume all the way up so why have the extra hole and components?

[ourclarioncall]

Thanks traj, yep sorry I forgot my mentors already gave me the lecture on volume pots after power amps 😊

[ourclarioncall]

This is something I really want to know

Would it be possible to move the volume pot from my strat to an amp ? So it’s right before the preamp tube ? so instead of controlling the guitar volume from my guitar , I can do it on the amp ? 

second question, can I have a volume pot on my guitar AND on the amp ? 

[thetragichero]

you can do that and control it with your feet. just get a simple passive volume pedal and keep your strat volume pegged
you may or may not like the sound of a strat without a volume pot in the guitar as the signal may be too bright (passive volume pedal right after the guitar would help)

i prefer a buffered volume pedal. mine adds some noise due to the mosfet buffer but the benefits of having the buffer with my pedalboard and 20ft cables outweigh the drawbacks

[ourclarioncall]

Ah, good idea. 

my thinking was if I was using my circuits on my guitars that have only switches and no volume puts.

could I have a volume pot on the amp before the preamp . 

imagine me in a bedroom with an amp set at the same volume,  and I just want to set it and forget it at the amp and not make volume adjustments at the guitar 

no pedals either , just a minimalist plug and play setup 

[ourclarioncall]

Cool, I found one of these. So it’s basically a volume pot in a box you can switch on and off?


The Leech Passive Volume Attenuator Guitar Pedal

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233296144081

[ashcatlt]

One of my earliest posts on this board was asking if a V pot at the other end of the cable would have the same tonal effects as it does when it’s in my guitar. At that time I was told it would, but honestly I’m not so sure anymore. The “loading” effect will be the same in that you’ve still got the inductance of the pickup over the resistance of the pot so dropping some high frequencies, but I don’t believe that turning the pot down will have the same effect because you no longer have the changing resistance of the top of the pot over the capacitance of the cable. That cable is just hanging off the pickup itself which will be a static filter. The effective resistance of the pot does change some as the wiper is moved, but when you’re looking at it from the cable end, and have a high impedance on the other side, it shouldn’t change much.

So basically it will help to shave off the highest “ice pick” frequencies that people tend to object to on an “unloaded“ pickup, but it won’t darken up as you turn the V down. This means you don’t “need” a treble bleed, but if you have come to depend on that normal action, you’d have to work something else out. A small cap from wiper to ground to simulate a cable might help some, I suppose.

Edit - I mean, if it’s just a passive pedal and there’s a longish cable between it and the amp, that’s obviously different. I thought we were talking about having this on or right at the amp, though.

[ourclarioncall]

Okay, so instead of the leech or any other passive volume attenuator pedal you could use something like a boss ge7 equlizer in the effects loop or after the guitar and before the amp

Eq giving a bit more tone shaping options

[newey]

Or, as Trage suggested, a buffered volume pedal (or pot). That way, the length of the cables isn't an issue.

But I fail to see the advantage of having another volume after the guitar and before the amp. Just use the volume pot on the guitar. If the pot loading the pickups is an issue, use a no-load pot.

Guitars have had a volume control (at least, most do . . .) for seventy-some-odd years. They really haven't changed much in that time for a reason- they're simple, cheap, and work pretty well. IOW, if it ain't broke . . .

Although, for gigging (again, as Trage noted), a volume pedal is very useful, since one's hands need never leave the strings.

[ourclarioncall]

Oct 18, 2020 13:35:52 GMT -5 newey said:

Or, as Trage suggested, a buffered volume pedal (or pot). That way, the length of the cables isn't an issue.

But I fail to see the advantage of having another volume after the guitar and before the amp. Just use the volume pot on the guitar. If the pot loading the pickups is an issue, use a no-load pot.

Guitars have had a volume control (at least, most do . . .) for seventy-some-odd years. They really haven't changed much in that time for a reason- they're simple, cheap, and work pretty well. IOW, if it ain't broke . . .

Although, for gigging (again, as Trage noted), a volume pedal is very useful, since one's hands need never leave the strings.

Volume pots are okay , but I don’t use them in my “all switch circuits”

For me (I’m probably the minority 🙂 and not afraid to rub the cat the wrong way when it comes to long standing tradition) Lots of reasons why not to use them , art/aesthetics , minimalism, Etc

They are great for dialling in a specific volume and doing volume swells etc, but I don’t like the inconsistency of them. I want an instant repeatable volume on my guitar at the flick of a switch, that’s why I like the volume switches that give me full/two thirds/one third, if for any reason I want to cut volume. Pots can sometimes feel cheap and flimsy and can be easily moved from a certain setting you’ve dialed in. I’m more of a set it at the amp and forget type guy I don’t play with the volume pot to clean up for Rythmn and turn it back up for lead.

I like the idea of experimenting with having a great wider control of cutting the guitar volume before it enters the preamp. Mainly for using louder amps at bedroom levels. I appreciate the potential loss of signal quality and that there’s probably no getting round the fact that amps like a super reverb probably need to be cranked to get the recipe of preamp +power amp+speaker distortion , but still fun to explore and experiment with.

It looks like I will be coming into some unexpected money soon 😁 so I’m seriously considering what I’m going to do amp wise. I want to make good quality YouTube videos and looking at super reverbs , pro reverbs , deluxe reverbs or possibly a custom made amp. Then there is camera, mics for the amp and room, a good audio interface etc.

I’m considering my goals. Do I want to get something like a Princeton that will sound decent at bedroom levels , or go for a big amp that sounds much better but can only be used occasionally for recording , or looking at ways to control volume or splash out on a proper attenuator for between power amp and speaker. Hmmm 🤔

[thetragichero]

a champ is plenty for bedroom levels
I'll never understand huge amps played quiet. like taking a formula one car to get groceries at Walmart
there's a reason why there are several types of master volume and attenuators: none of them sound as great as the amp cranked
there's no free lunch: if you've cranked the amp and attenuate the signal prior to the amp input, you've greatly raised the noise floor
really, these days the best bet for quiet/bedroom recording is hardware or software loaded with impulse responses

[newey]

Oct 18, 2020 14:32:00 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

a champ is plenty for bedroom levels

Amen to that, and can be used for more than that as well. Lots of even lower-powered tube amps, 1 watt and so forth, to give that saturated sound at low volume levels.

Unless one is planning on playing in pretty good sized venues, no one really "needs" a Super Reverb these days. A 22 watt Deluxe Reverb will cover most bar gigs just fine, and for bigger rooms there's usually a house PA and the amps get mic'd into that anyway.

Back in the day, house PAs were primitive or nonexistent, bigger amps were needed for concert venues and such. Like Trage's Sunn Coliseum head- those things were ubiquitous back in the day, sitting on top of a big speaker stack. Nowadays, if you see a show and the lead guitarist has a big Marshall stack, it's usually just sitting there on standby, and he's got some small amp hidden behind it, with a mic to the soundboard/FOH system.

[thetragichero]

i have plenty of 100w plus amps but do pretty much all of my guitar recording through Siona (basically a vibrochamp, running a 6l6g though) because i dig how it sounds. throw my blues driver in front of it and i can get enough gain for everything besides the extreme metal stuff. for bass even though i have a 100w jcm800-type i use Hoskanner (18w jcm800 sorta thing)
plenty loud but can keep the amps in the same room in tracking in, can get feedback if desired (sometimes sounds nice)

that being said at the big church i play at once per month bass goes right into a di. 10000w pa amp way louder than even an svt+fridge. guitarist plays an ac15 in an iso box backstage, miced and run through front of house. better control, no bleed into other mics, drastically reduced chance of feedback

this image isn't what i searched for as i remember a similar one with a combo amp behind the wall



as a guy who builds amps the folks who scoff at 50w builds because they're not 100w make me chuckle. then again, i think we all know about guitarists and their egos (i used to lug around two 100w half stacks and constantly fight with the sound guys in some of the better venues i played at so i am certainly guilty)

really though there's something to be said about the sound of a small single-ended amp in capable hands

[ourclarioncall]

I’m just thinking if I went and bought something like a Princeton , how satisfied would I be. I’m sure I could get a decent sound, but is it a great sound? Is it a phenomenal sound?

Looking at iso boxes has been another option. Stick a 2x15 cab in a box and crank up the 100watt head 🙂



Check this beast



I like the look of this one too

[thetragichero]

major chunk of recorded guitar tones you love were probably recorded on a Princeton or a champ or similar small amp (zeppelin was either straight to the board or on a little supro)

[newey]

Oct 19, 2020 14:46:44 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

I’m just thinking if I went and bought something like a Princeton , how satisfied would I be. I’m sure I could get a decent sound, but is it a great sound?

Well, the short answer to that is, try it before you buy it. Go down to your local music store with your favorite guitar and plug into one. Many shops will even give you a full return if you take it home and don't like it after 10 days or whatever.

A Princeton reverb (the silverface reissue)is on my wish list. As far as liking the sound, I do. But I think the thing that limits it isn't the amp itself, it's the 10" speaker. But that's easily solved- it has an extension speaker jack, so if a 12" or 15" cab is more to your liking, no problem (speaker Ohm rating permitting, of course).