Thoughts on SSS Strat 3-pot use

[sonikelectrik]

Hiya Nutz

I'm contemplating some further mods to my MIJ Fender Strat while I have it open. I'm adding the treble-bleed mod to the volume pot, so while I have it open I'd like to finish a job I started a few years ago:

-Replaced all Japanese pots with CTS

-Replaced 5-way Japanese box-switch to Fender CRL 3-way

-Replaced PUs with GFS '59 Alnico Vs

-Replaced jack plug with Switchcraft

-Copper shielding on cavity and full pickguard underside

but the main mod I did back then was to simplify down to a single master tone pot.

Thus I have the old 2nd tone pot as purely as a hole filler, not hooked up.

I have since wondered what I might do to use the now redundant space. Things I have considered to date:

-GFS Modboard of some sort

-Second volume pot of some sort (probably neck)

-Remove tone pot altogether and have 3 volume pots (as described in these very pages)

-Plug the hole (or leave it open) and use the space for a switch or switches

I'm tempted to remove the tone pot altogether as I really don't use it that much (only for winding down the shrill on the bridge PU), and I recently came to understand that any pots in the signal chain have an adverse effect. So to purify the signal I'm tempted to remove it.

Then again after reading the thread on capacitors, I'm now tempted to shelve that idea for the minute and experiment with different caps for a bit.

I like the idea of adding a neck PU switch so I can get a B + N configuration. I like the idea of a series/parallel switch too. I like the immediacy of a switch, as opposed to volume pots. I like the difference I get switching from neck to bridge - it feels significant.

So I wonder what some thoughts y'all might have on the subject. Those who have removed tone pot(s) from the equation, what have you done. And did you like it?

But here's my main concern. I'm not a tone hound. I'm not on a quest for the holy tone. My signal goes through a dozen dirt/modulation/delay/reverb pedals and into a mixer where its mixed with a drum machine and a bunch of bass synths and pad synths and....well you get it. My guitar sound is mangles so much by the time it gets to the speakers I don't really care what it sounds like plugged into a clean Fender Princeton. AM I WASTING MY TIME? Do any of the above mod ideas make a noticeable difference? I like the idea that adding the neck to the bridge signal will beef up the overall tone. Is this idea well founded?

If you read all this dribble, thanks. You have great patience or really nothing better to do. Interested to hear your ideas and experiences.

Cheers

[newey]

My first instinct was to say, "Don't modify a MIJ Strat!", the "80s vintage Japanese Fendersd are starting to command some respect in the vintage market. But then, it looks like you've already done quite a bit to it anyway.

If you signal chain goes through all the permutations you describe, I'd say adding a "neck on" switch would give you the most "bang for your buck", so to speak. Why add a modboard when you have a bunch of pedals already anyway? If you need another effect, just add another pedal. The only real advantage to an onboard effect is that you can just plug in without having to cart around a pedal board. If you're not eliminating the pedal board, what value is there to having one effect inside the guitar (with the need for a battery) when, as you say, you've already got a dozen or so outside of the guitar?

Adding an extra pot for another volume, or going to three volume pots, is for more subtle tweaking of levels, blending the varios pickups in/out a bit. Doesn't sound like "subtle" is part of the equation here . . .

Just my 2¢

[sonikelectrik]

Thanks for your thoughts newey. It’s funny, I had an Aria Pro ll that I loved. It was stolen from my house when we were burgled. From the insurance money my dad gave me - about a hundred pounds - I went and bought this guitar. I was young and naive, I had no idea who Fender was or how iconic the Strat is. It was just black and looked a bit like my Aria. I knew nothing of single coils or humbuckers. I just lamented that the Aria was more pointy and ‘metal’ than my new axe.

Fast forward 40 years and it turns out this little gem of a guitar is actually worth something. Little did I know back then. A while ago after doing some research I found out that the MIJs, as you point out, were pretty decent and highly regarded. To be truthful I don’t really know what about them is regarded. The electronics were crap inside, the volume pot was all crackly and that was what inspired the greater upgrades. The pickups I never really had a problem with but just assumed they were as budget as the rest of the electronics

i still have the Pups (and the crappy pots and switch) if I ever wanted to restore to original but that will never happen. Because......I don’t care very much about vintage this and value that. Guitars are meant to be played, and mine is meant to be played by me. So what world at large considers valuable doesn’t really matter. If it makes a sound and looks that make me happy...

so while an 80s MIJ label might give me a small amount of bragging cachet it’s not like my son can sell the unaltered original version of it for a bucket load when I die 😜

anyway, I totally agree with the  modboard assessment. Came to the same conclusion as well. The neck on switch does make the most sense for me. So the question becomes “where to install” it. I’m thinking keep the volume and tone where they are and block off the third hole and put the switch(es) down thereso as to  negate any need for making further holes in the pickguard

[sonikelectrik]

As for subtlety, it’s true that the signal is not subtle, and at full tilt my playing can be brutal and ugly 😁

But overall most of the time the sound is pretty and ambient and very nuanced. Just depends what mood I’m in. So flexibility is a good thing I guess.

[newey]

Nov 12, 2020 12:14:57 GMT -5 sonikelectrik said:

Guitars are meant to be played, and mine is meant to be played by me. So what world at large considers valuable doesn’t really matter. If it makes a sound and looks that make me happy...

Yes, meant to be played for sure. But, then again, if only I had bought a '59 goldtop LP way back when, it could be financing my retirement now . . .

Pots do get "crackly" with age, even good quality CTS pots. Replacing those is more in the nature of maintenance/repair, probably wouldn't really affect the value much. Pickups are another story.

So the question becomes “where to install” it. I’m thinking keep the volume and tone where they are and block off the third hole and put the switch(es) down thereso as to negate any need for making further holes in the pickguard

A Gibson-sized toggle switch (these can be had in DPDT if you decide to do the series/parallel thing)will fit the third hole without modification, although you may need to put a few washers behind it to keep it from sticking up too much through the pickguard.

[JohnH]

This would be my choice for using the extra knob position. Its my favorite simple scheme for SSS. The third knob becomes a series blender, and with that and a switch (could be a push-pull), you can get series options plus the B+N parallel combo.

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7117/strat-ssm3-series-parallel-switch

It needs a standard 5-way though, rather than a 3-way.

[sonikelectrik]

Nov 12, 2020 12:52:12 GMT -5 newey said:

Pickups are another story.

So with that in mind I wonder what your thoughts on the 80s MIJ Pups are. Like I said with little knowledge I assumed they would be as cgheap and and as bad as the rest of the electrical components. Is there something in particular that makes them better than I assumed? Not that I would change them back in this guitar, as I do like the soiund it makes now even though its not drastically different in terms of output. But if I were to acquire a cheap fixer=upper maybe these MIJs would be worth keeping around.

Do pickups wear out with age too?

A Gibson-sized toggle switch (these can be had in DPDT if you decide to do the series/parallel thing)will fit the third hole without modification, although you may need to put a few washers behind it to keep it from sticking up too much through the pickguard.

Hmm thats a nice thought. I think it might be a little too big. I have one laying around I think so I'll fit it and see how it feels. I was thinking mini switch but this is an idea.

Thanks for your thoughts

[sonikelectrik]

Nov 12, 2020 16:10:41 GMT -5 JohnH said:

This would be my choice for using the extra knob position. Its my favorite simple scheme for SSS. The third knob becomes a series blender, and with that and a switch (could be a push-pull), you can get series options plus the B+N parallel combo.

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7117/strat-ssm3-series-parallel-switch

It needs a standard 5-way though, rather than a 3-way.

Thanks John. I've been looking at that and it does look like a wicked good upgrade to a standard Strat. Maybe on another one. See, I have a reason to get another guitar now I'll tell the wife it was your idea.

After much ponderance I think I've settled on the idea of a DPDT on/off/on switch that will activate the N pickup in either series or parallel. I think a knob is overkill for my needs in particular for this guitar. Switch is more immediate and as newey said will give me most bang for my buck.

Should be a straightforward mod and I'm sure there are plenty of diagrams on here I can reference.

Thanks again

[newey]

Nov 14, 2020 19:58:05 GMT -5 sonikelectrik said:

I think I've settled on the idea of a DPDT on/off/on switch

I would think that you would just want a DPDT On-On for series/parallel . Why would you want a center "off" position?

There are 2 ways to wire this, depending on whether you want it to "override" the pickup selector. Most folks prefer to do that, so that flipping the switch puts both pickups in series regardless of where the 3-way pickup selector is set. The other option is to have it operate only when the 3-way is in the center position; this means potentially having 2 switch movements to get to the series setting.

[sonikelectrik]

Well maybe this idea was due to my flawed thinking. At first I imagined 2 DPDT on/on switches; one for the neck pickup and one for S/P. But seeing as the neck pickup is the only pickup that will be used with either of the other two, I figured I could condense that down into one tidy switch. 

Does that make sense? Is it easily done? 

Also from from what I read in your reply above newey, I think you assumed my 3 way switch operates two pickups a la Tele style. In fact my 3 way operates the three pickups discretely. So adding a switch for the neck would allow me to turn that on in  bridge and middle position. I don’t know how it would work when the 3 way is in neck position. That’s a question I was going to get to

thank you

[newey]

Yes, I misread your first post. So, this is wired like a '50s Strat, with only one pickup "on" at a time?

If you want to add a "neck on" switch, that would then give you M + N amd B + N. You would not get the M + B. However, if you're going to add a switch with the 3-way, my suggestion would be to wire the 3-way to control the B and N, as on a Tele, and use a separate switch to add the middle pickup to whatever is on the 3-way. This would give you, on the 3-way, N/N+B/B, and by adding the middle in, N + M/N + M + B/ M + B. You would lose, however, the middle pickup by itself. I guess it would come down to how much you use the middle pickup alone

If the middle pickup was an On-On-On, you might be able to wire it such that the middle would be off/on by itself/on with the 3-way. I'd have to look at that to see if it could be done.

As for a series/parallel switch, that's another option, whether you do it with or without a "Neck on" (or mid on, or whatever.) Again, depends on what you want and how much complexity you want to deal with.

[thetragichero]

if you add a 3pdt toggle you can do what i did with my #1 strat: bridge * middle series override switch with its own tone pot. get a humbucker bridge sound with an sss strat

[jvin248]

.

I wire all my Strats with the Armstrong Blender mod. I'll convert HSS used guitars I get into SSS and then wire in this circuit.

Second tone pot blends from stock SSS into HSH Super Strat. A wiring only change so it's inexpensive and easy to try. If you have a pro 'knob rake' technique you can spin the knob from end to end like a switch. Or slightly dial back or into one or the other. Your switching remains otherwise as expected. So it still gives you a 'tone knob'.

I had tried all the other mods out there like the seven tone switch/gilmour already listed and it was ok but the blender really was the main improvement that stopped the endless cycle of mods.
You could get a push/pull tone pot and use that to add the neck+bridge switch option along with the blender. Then you'll have a guitar that can cover all the Strat, Tele, and Les Paul tones you need or want. The other option I did on my Strat was a Hendrix/reverse bridge pickup slot pickguard.

[sonikelectrik]

Hi guys sorry about the necro. Got sick. Got busy. Thanksgiving happened. Xmas decorating happened.

Then I spent several days scribbling dozens of variations of wiring diagrams to see if I could get what I wanted without running back here crying for help.

Nov 16, 2020 12:55:24 GMT -5 newey said:

Yes, I misread your first post. So, this is wired like a '50s Strat, with only one pickup "on" at a time?

Exactly

If you want to add a "neck on" switch, that would then give you M + N amd B + N. You would not get the M + B. However, if you're going to add a switch with the 3-way, my suggestion would be to wire the 3-way to control the B and N, as on a Tele, and use a separate switch to add the middle pickup to whatever is on the 3-way. This would give you, on the 3-way, N/N+B/B, and by adding the middle in, N + M/N + M + B/ M + B. You would lose, however, the middle pickup by itself. I guess it would come down to how much you use the middle pickup alone

Actually I do use the middle by itself quite a bit. It has a very different tone unto itself that I like. Dunno if its just the particulars of that pickup winding, or if it was designed that way. I do like your suggestion though. Great idea with lots of variables.

If the middle pickup was an On-On-On, you might be able to wire it such that the middle would be off/on by itself/on with the 3-way. I'd have to look at that to see if it could be done.

As for a series/parallel switch, that's another option, whether you do it with or without a "Neck on" (or mid on, or whatever.) Again, depends on what you want and how much complexity you want to deal with.

Yeah I dont want too much complexity in terms of fiddling with knobs and switches while playing. My brain trying to understand the complexities of electronics engineering has been painful. I'll post further below. Thanks

[sonikelectrik]

Dec 1, 2020 9:13:05 GMT -5 jvin248 said:

.

I wire all my Strats with the Armstrong Blender mod. I'll convert HSS used guitars I get into SSS and then wire in this circuit.

Second tone pot blends from stock SSS into HSH Super Strat. A wiring only change so it's inexpensive and easy to try. If you have a pro 'knob rake' technique you can spin the knob from end to end like a switch. Or slightly dial back or into one or the other. Your switching remains otherwise as expected. So it still gives you a 'tone knob'.

Yeah this was one of the examples I found and had been studying as I tried to learn how guitar electronics actually work. Its a really interesting setup. One thing I didnt understand with his diagram were the N/C. X and Y labels? I spent many hours trying to adapt this to modify from what he does with the middle PU to the neck PU. I think it led me down a good path. But I wish the Breja video went int into more detail about WHY those connections were made. I get the HOW, just follow the directions. But it took me hours of following electrons around a circuit (figuratively, not literally ) to grok what was happening. Mostly.

[newey]

"N/C" would indicate "not connected", meaning to leave that lug empty. "X" and "Y" are explained in the text- you can swap the X and Y connections to have the blender operate in the opposite direction.

[sonikelectrik]

So as I said I have pages of scribbles tying to understand guitar wiring concepts, reverse engineering diagrams found here and guitarelectronics.com and seymorduncan.com

I think I landed on a concept that might work. I'd like you guys to take a look and see if I'm off base, or if there is a more efficient way of making the connections. I initially tried to wire a DPDT on/on/on toggle switch between the neck PU and the blade switch but I just couldnt make it work. Moving the toggle to after the switch in the neck PU circuit seems to get me what I want.

Yes its very crude and if it looks feasable I'll be drawing up a cleaner better version.

For me to understand how this all works it was really helpful for me to 'trace the electrons' over the circuit. Now I dont know if this is faulty thinking, but having looked at dozens of wiring diagrams over the last week I think I have a better idea having used this process. These following images are my 'active circuit' diagrams that I used to work out my concept. Again, please take a look and let me know if I'm off base here. I ommitted the middle pickup as that is standard wiring and should not interfere with how the Neck and Bridge interact. At least in my mind....

Bridge Pickup Circuit


Neck Pickup Circuit


Bridge & Neck in Series Circuit


Bridge & Neck in Parallel Circuit

[sonikelectrik]

Dec 9, 2020 13:19:51 GMT -5 newey said:

"N/C" would indicate "not connected", meaning to leave that lug empty. "X" and "Y" are explained in the text- you can swap the X and Y connections to have the blender operate in the opposite direction.

Ah, thanks for clarification Newey!!!

[newey]

OK, sonic, I appreciate you posting those diagrams, as it lets me see your thinking. You are close to what you want, just not quite there.

First off, I notice that you have a red arrow between the two poles of the DPDT switch- in the bridge amd nack pickup diagrams, the red arrow goes between the upper 2 lugs of the DPDT switch, in the series diagram it goes between the lower lugs, and in the parallel diagram it goes between the middle lugs. I am not sure what those red arrows are meant to represent?

Now, lets look at your diagram. On the left-hand pole of the DPDT switch, you have the common lug connected to the common lug on the left-hand pole of the 5-way switch. However, both the upper and lower lugs of that pole are wired to the volume pot, and thence to the output. Flipping the toggle lever will thus not switch anything, since both upper and lower lugs are connected to the same place.

On the right-hand pole of the DPDT switch, the bridge pickup negative wire is connected to the common pole, and is thus switched between ground (with the lever "down" as oriented on the diagram) and the neck pickup "hot" wire, which connects first to the common lug of the second pole (right side) of the 5-way switch, and then to lug 1 on the left-hand pole of the 5-way. Since nothing else is connected to the right-hand side of the 5-way switch, the connection to the right-side common lug is unnecessary- you're not switching anything with that side of the switch.

As you have it, you will get the neck pickup in series with the bridge pickup- but only when the 5-way switch is set to either the bridge position or bridge + middle position. With the 5-way set to the neck position (i.e', lug 1 connected to the common), then the bridge negative wire will be connected to the "hot" ouput, shorting out the bridge pickup to itself. You would still have the neck pickup alone in that setting. Same thing at the next position, N + M- you won't get the bridge in series.

I think what you (probably) really want is to be able to put the bridge pickup in series with whatever is selected by the 5-way switch, be it neck or middle?

[sonikelectrik]

Hey Newey, I can't believe its been 3 months since I gave this project ant attention. Life, huh. 

I think the last time I looked at this as was going to abandon the 1-toggle idea, and just use JohnH series blend pot and makes use of the empty pot spot I have rather than muddy the issue with switches. I like switches as they are immediate but maybe I was overthinking this problem before. Plan on finally doing this next weekend