PTB Wiring

[frets]

Joe,
If you have it, you might as well use it. I use it for long runs from a Les Paul Switch to the harness. I think it helps.

[joelorigo]

Ok, so a good place to use would be for the + output to the jack? And from the claw to the volume pot? Even though I don't have to, I thought I would replace all the wires since they are 33 years old.

[frets]

Joe,

The hot wire is in black cloth encased by the metal braid which is you ground wire. You would not use it on the claw because you only need a single ground wire. Using it on the jack or from the switch (if it’s a Les Paul Type Guitar) is to roll back the braid to get to your hot wire. Solder the hot wire to the appropriate lug on the jack and solder the braid to the ground jack. Braided wire is fussy stuff if one is not used to it, I’ve changed my mind, I think you should use regular wire. If you’ve never used braided before, it can be one holy frustrating endeavor. The guys might disagree with me but if you want to do a straight forward “no muss” job, forget the braided. Maybe you can get your money back for it.

[joelorigo]

Thanks, I get it. It wasn't that much and maybe I'll use it down the road when I start messing with my Les Paul 

[newey]

Unless one is trying to stick with a vintage look inside on'e guitar, I'd stay away from the braided shield stuff. As frets notes, it's a pain to work with, and if one is concerned about noise from the short wire runs out to the output jack (unlikely to be a source of noise in any event), better to use some other type of shielded cable. with a separte shield, rather than using the braided cable to both conduct the signal negative and shield the run as well. Any 2- conductor shielded cable will work, or you can salvage multi-conductor cable , like from old computer cables, and just use 2 of the conductors, jus tcut the extra ones off. The shield would then get grounded to one's grounding point, wherever that may be, and the two conductors make the jack connections.

There are reasons that modern guitars (and modern pickups) don't use the single-conductor-with-braided-shiled wiring anymore. Good reasons.

[joelorigo]

Ok, once again, good to know. Thank you.

[blademaster2]

Feb 1, 2021 17:31:08 GMT -5 newey said:

Unless one is trying to stick with a vintage look inside on'e guitar, I'd stay away from the braided shield stuff. As frets notes, it's a pain to work with, and if one is concerned about noise from the short wire runs out to the output jack (unlikely to be a source of noise in any event), better to use some other type of shielded cable. with a separte shield, rather than using the braided cable to both conduct the signal negative and shield the run as well. Any 2- conductor shielded cable will work, or you can salvage multi-conductor cable , like from old computer cables, and just use 2 of the conductors, jus tcut the extra ones off. The shield would then get grounded to one's grounding point, wherever that may be, and the two conductors make the jack connections.

There are reasons that modern guitars (and modern pickups) don't use the single-conductor-with-braided-shiled wiring anymore. Good reasons.

To add to Newey's comment, for the geometries in a guitar you really get little benefit from a shield braid, and if there is a solid wire within the shield then that is the one to solder. It might be good for noise to twist solid wires with a ground wire (loose twist), however, but that increases the capacitance and might reduce some high frequencies (although I doubt it would be noticeable). It is probably better to shield the entire cavity instead.

[joelorigo]

I just finished wiring this. With the switch in the number one position, I am getting signal only from the neck pickup - should be the bridge.  In the 2 position, I am getting the neck and the bridge. Position 3, 4 & 5 nothing. (Note: the bridge pick up is a Seymour Duncan Little 59 that I had to reverse the black and green wire to get the correct polarity in position 2 previous to this) I'm attaching a photo of my switch. Also, the treble knob does seem to cutting treble and the bass know does seem to be cutting bass. I am just testing with a screwdriver on the pickups.

[frets]

Joe,
This is how a PTB is wired.

[joelorigo]

Ok. So I have it backwards. Just to be clear, are you saying I should use the other side of the switch too?

Feb 2, 2021 21:45:33 GMT -5 frets said:

Joe,
This is how a PTB is wired.

[frets]

No, I’m sorry, I should have put the labels below yours. Same side just reverse the wires.

[newey]

I agree, sounds like the positions are reversed on the 5-way. One has to keep in mind that it's like a seesaw, with the lever pointed towards the neck, the rear-most lug is operable.

But it sounds as if there's more problems here than just that.

In the 2 position, I am getting the neck and the bridge.

This makes no sense, unless perhaps you have swapped the middle pickup's wire for that of the neck? But I'd double check that the B + N pickups are indeed active in that position before doing anything, it's very odd if it's correct.

Position 3, 4 & 5 nothing

.

This sounds suspiciously like a grounding issue, but it also doesn't make much sense. You said in position 2 you were getting N + B, yet in position 3 there is no signal. Position 2 is simply the parallel connection of #1 and #3, so you were getting sound from whatever pickup is wired to the middle lug at #2, but nothing at #3?

So, to my mind, not a simple problem here. joelorigo, did you verify the switch operation before installing it?

[joelorigo]

Feb 2, 2021 22:58:04 GMT -5 newey said:

So, to my mind, not a simple problem here. joelorigo, did you verify the switch operation before installing it?

I didn’t. How does one do that?

[joelorigo]

Feb 2, 2021 21:45:33 GMT -5 frets said:

Joe,
This is how a PTB is wired.

I just did some research on how the 5 way switch works and I see that on the side I used I have the neck connected to the common, not the output to the volume pot. You can even see the longer tab in my photo. I copied a photo of the Legacy wiring I posted earlier, but it is wired on the other side of the switch.

[newey]

Well, that could explain a lot.

You would test the switch with either a multimeter or a simple continuity checker, checking each position for continuity with the common lug. I learned the hard way to always check components before wiring them, even brand new ones. I spent hours once chasing down what I thought was my poor wiring only to finally test the switch, which was bad from the factory.

Our long-time Mentor here, ChrisK, also advised to keep a journal, or a "build sheet", for each project, so that if you ever have to go back into the wiring years later, you have a record of what you did way back when. I now do that, and include the wiring diagram, a list of all the components, their values, and where they were sourced. This has saved me a lot of head-scratching.

[joelorigo]

Good to know that information. Thanks! I have made some notes as this has proceeded so I will save everything. And take some photos.

[joelorigo]

Feb 2, 2021 21:45:33 GMT -5 frets said:

Joe,
This is how a PTB is wired.

This made it work but with the neck and bridge reversed on the switch. So I switched those wires and it is all correct now.

I purposely didn't install any treble bleed that is included in the diagram to keep it simple but I'll so that after I play with this for a while. 

Thanks everyone!

[frets]

Joe,
I’m happy it worked out. I hope you like PTB as much as some of us😺

[joelorigo]

I have a random question. Does the value of the caps one the treble and bass pots effect the signal when the pot is turned up all the way? No, right? The value of the cap only makes a difference once you start turning down the knob, right? I am only asking because I'm trying to prove to myself that this rewiring did not change the tone of the Seymour Duncan Little 59 that I have in the bridge, when the knobs are all the way up. 

Other than that, I just spent some time messing with the knobs and I like this system.

[newey]

With the knob all the way up, the cap isn't in the circuit, for all practical purposes.

If other components like pots were replaced during this rewiring, that could potentially affect the tone. All pots are not created equal, they're plus or minus 20% . . .

[joelorigo]

Yes everything was replaced and with pots that have 10% tolerance. I measured the them and they were all within that spec, less than that actually.

[newey]

OK, so rules that out. . .

[joelorigo]

I think it was that I lowered the pickup to match the volume of the other 2 single coils made it sound different. I raised it a little and I think it's what I first heard

[joelorigo]

I’ve spent some time getting used to this circuit. I’m going to add the treble bleed next. The Kinman. Looks like we are using lugs 2 and 3 on the volume pot. A couple of questions.

Does or matter which lugs of the volume pot the the 2 sides of the cap are attached to? In other words, does the side that has the resistor attached need to be on a specific lug?

in general, does adding a treble bleed smooth out the taper more than it was before. This pot is an audio taper but does roll off volume more on the beginning of the rotation than the later part. My 1993 American Standard, which I have learned has a treble bleed, is more of a gradual volume reduction through the rotation.

[frets]

Hi Joe,

I thought if I drew it out for you it would be easier to put your Kinman Bleed on the Volume Pot.  This is looking down at the Volume, upside down, in the cavity.  The other photo shows you how your treble bleed should look all ready to go! (The treble bleed on the left called a “series” treble bleed as opposed to the “parallel” bleed on the right). You are using a Series Treble Bleed. The values for the Kinman are a 1.2nF capacitor (.0012uF) with a 130k resistor.







As to the taper, I’ll let the experts answer that one.  There are differing opinions.

[joelorigo]

Thank you. I did it

The way the pot operates hasn't changed. From about 10 to 7-ish is most of the level change. I thought the audio taper was supposed to "fix" what the ear hears in the linear taper. But I just did some research and what I'm experiencing seems to be what the audio taper design is. 

[unreg]

Feb 8, 2021 22:51:00 GMT -5 joelorigo said:

Thank you. I did it

The way the pot operates hasn't changed. From about 10 to 7-ish is most of the level change. I thought the audio taper was supposed to "fix" what the ear hears in the linear taper. But I just did some research and what I'm experiencing seems to be what the audio taper design is. 

I’m under the impression that the Audio Taper design, starting at max, enables signal to be decreased gradually... the same lessening throughout the entire spin from max to min. An inverse rotation is supposed to work exactly the same (but, obviously, in an inverse manner).

Linear taper contains problems such as most of the increase being towards the max setting. (Maybe that’s incorrect... but that’s what I remember from my Linear Taper 500K pots.)

Are you sure you installed an Audio Taper pot?

[joelorigo]

I ordered and audio taper so I'm assuming that's what I got, but I didn't double check. After spending a while researching this last night, it does seem, that what I am experiencing is normal to a common type of audio taper pot. Apparently there are sever types of taper. I have come across the "vintage taper" style that seems to be a bit between the common audio and linear taper in functionality. I ordered one that Mojotone makes to see what that will do for me. I came across this charts which deciphers the code on CTS pots. The 2nd to last number identifies the type of taper.

[reTrEaD]

Feb 8, 2021 22:51:00 GMT -5 joelorigo said:

Thank you. I did it

The way the pot operates hasn't changed. From about 10 to 7-ish is most of the level change. I thought the audio taper was supposed to "fix" what the ear hears in the linear taper. But I just did some research and what I'm experiencing seems to be what the audio taper design is. 

Yes, joelorigo

Audio taper pots are great for volume controls on amplifiers, receivers, radios, etc, In those situations you tend to be operating near at low or medium volume levels. Some guitar players tend to prefer linear pots for the volume control on their guitar, so there is finer control near the clockwise end of the rotation.

I'd recommend changing your treble-bleed to a resistor/cap in parallel rather than the Kinman configuration. In addition to having a better treble compensation, it also affect the taper of the volume pot such that it requires more rotation away from maximum to achieve the same reduction in volume. In other words ... finer, less sudden change near the clockwise end of the rotation.

You may find that changes the operation of your volume control enough to suit your preference. If not, try using a linear for your volume pot.

[joelorigo]

Feb 9, 2021 13:58:14 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Feb 8, 2021 22:51:00 GMT -5 joelorigo said:

Yes, joelorigo

Audio taper pots are great for volume controls on amplifiers, receivers, radios, etc, In those situations you tend to be operating near at low or medium volume levels. Some guitar players tend to prefer linear pots for the volume control on their guitar, so there is finer control near the clockwise end of the rotation.

I'd recommend changing your treble-bleed to a resistor/cap in parallel rather than the Kinman configuration. In addition to having a better treble compensation, it also affect the taper of the volume pot such that it requires more rotation away from maximum to achieve the same reduction in volume. In other words ... finer, less sudden change near the clockwise end of the rotation.

You may find that changes the operation of your volume control enough to suit your preference. If not, try using a linear for your volume pot.

That sounds great. I will give it a try. Thanks for the info and suggestion. Between that and the new vintage taper pot that is on the way, sounds like there are options to get it how I want it. Looking forward to experimenting.