Tele mod using pushpot instead of larger switch

[cnc1]

Hi,

I've been looking at the T-Riffic wiring schematic (http://http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/page/gn1-pages/wiring/triffic/index.php) and been wondering if I could accomplish the same thing with a 3-way switch and a pushpot volume control. Basically, I'm trying to implement the S-1 option on the American Tele Deluxes, with the additional position. So here is what I am thinking:

Volume PushPot Up (standard Tele functions)
Position 1: Bridge Pickup
Position 2: Bridge & Neck Pickups in Parallel (In Phase)
Position 3: Neck Pickup

Volume PushPot Down
Position 1 (4): Bridge & Neck Pickups in Series (Out of Phase)
Position 2 (5): Bridge & Neck Pickups in Series (In Phase)
Position 3 (6): Empty (for now)

I don't want to add a 2nd tone control, so I will use the 'Single Tone Control' option. I guess I'm just looking for some advice, because I have never done any soldering (yet), and I really like the T-Riffic option. Is this wiring schematic even possible? Will it add noise to the guitar? Will it make the switch transitions scratchy? I know its overkill, but I've always been a one-guitar-for-everything kind of guy.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
Chris

[CheshireCat]

cnc1 said:

Hi,

I've been looking at the T-Riffic wiring schematic (http://http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/page/gn1-pages/wiring/triffic/index.php) and been wondering if I could accomplish the same thing with a 3-way switch and a pushpot volume control. Basically, I'm trying to implement the S-1 option on the American Tele Deluxes, with the additional position. So here is what I am thinking:

Volume PushPot Up (standard Tele functions)
Position 1: Bridge Pickup
Position 2: Bridge & Neck Pickups in Parallel (In Phase)
Position 3: Neck Pickup

Volume PushPot Down
Position 1 (4): Bridge & Neck Pickups in Series (Out of Phase)
Position 2 (5): Bridge & Neck Pickups in Series (In Phase)
Position 3 (6): Empty (for now)

I don't want to add a 2nd tone control, so I will use the 'Single Tone Control' option. I guess I'm just looking for some advice, because I have never done any soldering (yet), and I really like the T-Riffic option. Is this wiring schematic even possible? Will it add noise to the guitar? Will it make the switch transitions scratchy? I know its overkill, but I've always been a one-guitar-for-everything kind of guy.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
Chris

Interesting idea.

First, hyperlink the link so that we can easily get there. It's easy.

Second, what kind of 3-way switch are you talking about? A standard Tele 3-way, or something like an LP 3-way? If a Tele three way, why would you want to ring in more switches when the SuperSwitch will give you what you want?

Also, while I'm all about S-1 switches, and have two myself, they are kinda hard to come by these days (unless you have a sweet source for them that you've been withholding from us . . . shame on you) and they aren't that much easier to wire than SuperSwitches.

I know, because my UUSS Mod uses both a SuperSwitch and an S-1 Switch (tho a 4PDT toggle would work just as well). But I'm doing it to get, not 5, but 10 different sounds, specifically all the practical options that everyone usually looks for, including the "lost" Strat combos (N+B, N>B, and ALL3>), putting them in the most intuitive places possible. Ergo, I'm making full use of all the benefits and flexibility that both Switches have to offer.

I'm not sure you'd want to go to all that trouble, simply so you wouldn't have to have a SuperSwitch.

So, that said, why do you want to opt for the 3-way?

Incidentally, the JP mod might be a good place to start, where you might be able to get a good phase inverter and series/parallel switcher onto one switch, assuming both can be done with DPDT (which, classically, they can). Of course, that will require more integration with the new 3-Way in question. I don't know if a simple Tele 3-way can do it. You might need a T-Model Megaswitch, tho, of course, I don't know if that is a proper 3-way as well.

This may prove to be a lot of work to avoid using a 5-way switch.

Chesh

[cnc1]

Thanks for all of that advice, CheshireCat. Instead of getting a true S-1 switch from Fender, I was thinking I would just buy one of the push/pull deals from stewmac.

I don't know why I'm more inclined for a 3-way switch as opposed to the 5-way. I guess its just because it has the old comfortable Tele feel to me. Even the 4-way switch sets my psyche off when I go in for a quick change. I think that's why Fender went with the S-1 over a 4-way, but I really have no idea. The 10 option setup you have is really cool, but way over my head right now. My main goal is to get the Bridge+Neck (In Series & In Phase) option because from what I've read, it has the highest output out of all the options.

Thanks again for the tips. I'll keep checking back.

-- Chris

[CheshireCat]

cnc1 said:

Thanks for all of that advice, CheshireCat. Instead of getting a true S-1 switch from Fender, I was thinking I would just buy one of the push/pull deals from stewmac.

I don't know why I'm more inclined for a 3-way switch as opposed to the 5-way. I guess its just because it has the old comfortable Tele feel to me. Even the 4-way switch sets my psyche off when I go in for a quick change. I think that's why Fender went with the S-1 over a 4-way, but I really have no idea. The 10 option setup you have is really cool, but way over my head right now. My main goal is to get the Bridge+Neck (In Series & In Phase) option because from what I've read, it has the highest output out of all the options.

Thanks again for the tips. I'll keep checking back.

-- Chris

First, you're welcome. Glad to be of service.

Second, unless you are a wiring savant, on the level of Mikey R or perhaps Wolf, then I'm not sure how much mileage you're going to get out of two poles when you want to do some majorly integrated switching using a standard Tele 3-way switch and the options you've outlined.

Also, you mention liking the feel of an old tele switch. Well, how much is having to ring in an extra switch going to disrupt that tele feel? I think Fender went with the S-1 because they needed to ring in some high-level switching in order to pull off the kinds of combos that would get a project guitar enthusiast to abandon the Search for the Lost Combo, and buy a new guitar (perhaps identical to their current axe). Remember, they didn't just bring in a 4PDT switch, but also brought in a 4P5T blade switch in the form of the SuperSwitch. That's 8 Poles and 7 Throws worth of integrated switching. That's a lot of fire power.

If you can do the same thing with a regular tele 3-way blade and a 4PDT toggle, great! But I don't know if it's possible to do with a regular tele blade and a basic DPDT push/pull pot.

I mean, hey, if you can work it out and it works, great! Coolio!

But, if not, like I said, this is a lot of work to avoid two extra stops on a blade switch (which, as it happens, would accomplish everything you wanted).

Chesh

[jhng]

There is a way to get all six combinations using just a tele switch and a push/pull. But...the switching logic isn't ideal.

Basically, you can get:

Mode A

1 N
2 NxB
3 NxB (out of phase)

Mode B

1 N+B
2 N+B (out of phase)
3 B


It would probably be better to get a S-1 switch and try to maintain "N, N+B, B" as mode A. However, if this is any help I'll do a quick schematic.

Hastings

Hastings

[cnc1]

Wow! Thanks to both CheshireCat and jhng. I'm learning a lot, fast, and you're comments have been a great help!

I agree that this might be too much work to avoid having a 5-way switch, but I'm enjoying the learning process and expect to screw up at least 100 times before I realize that I should have just went with your first recommendations. Your advice has been great and it makes me begrudge all the years that I tolerated the stock controls and feared looking under the hood.

jhng - if you could post that schematic, it would be a great help to me (and to anyone else the reads this post).

Thank you again,
Chris

[CheshireCat]

cnc1 said:

Wow! Thanks to both CheshireCat and jhng. I'm learning a lot, fast, and you're comments have been a great help!

I agree that this might be too much work to avoid having a 5-way switch, but I'm enjoying the learning process and expect to screw up at least 100 times before I realize that I should have just went with your first recommendations. Your advice has been great and it makes me begrudge all the years that I tolerated the stock controls and feared looking under the hood.

jhng - if you could post that schematic, it would be a great help to me (and to anyone else the reads this post).

Thank you again,
Chris

BTW, I'm not trying to disuade you from exploring this mod . . . I'm just looking at a cost analysis. If this works for you, great. Definitely do it.

I've just always said "never spend a dollar to save a dime". In this case, we could just as well say, "don't add three controls to avoid two". I know from experience here, only sort of in reverse. Right now my UUSS, in total, uses five switches: a SuperSwitch, S-1, a phase-inverter, and two splitters. I was thinking about trying to simplify it even further, so that I would just have, say, two switches that would do everything. Well, the concept has been evolving, but right now the only practical way to do it from what I can tell is to have two rotary switches, one with SEVEN positions, and the other with SIXTEEN.

So, iow, instead of just having a few simple double throws and a regular five way selector (albeit with more poles under the hood), which I would just intuitively toggle on and off as needed, I would now have some 100 patches to have to remember, mostly by rote. Albeit it, I'd have only two switches, but two switches with just way too many things to pick from, and something I'm not going to remember in the heat of battle. And I especially don't want to try and go from position 4 to position 13 on the one rotary, and position 2 to postion 5 on the other, a split-second right before the solo.

The key thing here is, don't overcomplicate things under the auspices of making it "simpler". That's pursuing a false economy.

That being said, if you can get this new Tele mod to work, that of a) N, N+B, B, & b) N+B OOP, N>B, N>B OOP, or whatever ultimately works, then great! Just understand that the 3-way selector switch needed may not exist.

This is usually when we ring in the SuperSwitch, the very thing you're trying to avoid.

That said, assuming it comes in 3-way, I'm thinking a T-Model Megaswitch might just be what's called for . . . or, perhaps, a custom job. Günter does do custom work on that.

Chesh

[jhng]

Here's a schematic of the system I mentioned above. The DPDT is shown in Mode B and the three-way is shown in position 1. I'll try and find and convert it into picture form (if I can find something suitable to butcher).



I'm still not happy about the switching logic, though. But you could try it as an intermediary to get a feel for what's available on a Tele, before doing T-Riffic or such.

Hastings

[cnc1]

Hastings (jhng), This is great. Thanks for posting this. I am going to print it out and try to fully understand it.

Chesh, that 100 option idea sounds incredible. And the more I think about it, you're absolutely right - two extra switch positions might be much more intuitive in a quick changeup than a switch and a push.

So I'm going to keep looking at Hasting's idea, but I have a new question, that might even be worth a new posting, but I'll economize.

All of the 4 way Tele schematic's I've found online have this setup:

Position 1: Bridge Pickup
Position 2: Bridge & Neck Pickups in Parallel
Position 3: Neck Pickup
Position 4: Bridge & Neck Pickups in Series

Here are the schematics: 1 and 2.

I am wondering why I cannot find a schematic for this 4-way setup:

Position 1: Bridge Pickup
Position 2: Bridge & Neck Pickups in Parallel
Position 3: Bridge & Neck Pickups in Series
Position 4: Neck Pickup

As you can tell, I am new to all of this, so if there is a blatant reason why this setup is not possible, just assume I don't know it.

The reason I like this setup is because I use individual pups far more often then blended configurations. I make a lot of quick changes from position 1 to position 3 on my tele, and I want to be able to know that when I throw it all the way to left, I am working with just the neck pup. That being said, I still want the blended series option because I've heard it in the store and it sounded great!

I've been thinking about buying the 4 way or 5 way kit here. (If anyone thinks these are junky parts, please let me know.)

Thanks again to CheshireCat and Hastings for the great advice,
Chris

[sumgai]

cnc1,

Hi, and to these here forums!

I see that you're contemplating ordering some stuff from the guitar-mod website. I checked them out, and found this:

-- .047 uf capacitor - select between SBE Orange Drop 715P series (no extra charge)
.... Hovland Musicap ($9 ugprade)
.... Vitamin Q Paper & Oil ($10.50 upgrade)
.... V-Cap Teflon Film & Foil ($44.99 upgrade)

Please believe me when I say, I'm just the first person responding here that will tell you that this guy is trying to get you to float his boat, probably a 60 foot yacht. The Orange Drop is regarded as just about the best thing you can get your hands on, or so it is widely held in the industry. Why this person is trying to tout extra expensive parts, I can only surmise. Perhaps he's a former Monster Cable salesman.

After getting a glimpse of how he operates, I decided not to waste any more time on him or his site. Sorry, but that's just the way I see it.

Now, as to your desire to have a 4-way switch arranged in the order of N, N+B, NxB and B, that's easily doable. Just to gild the lily, you only need a standard 2P4T switch, available from many places that sell to guitarists, and other parts houses that sell to electronic hobbyists, or even from Fender direct, if you need to go that route. Here's the basic wiring diagram:



I've left the pot and cap values up to you, but outside of that, this diagram should get you up and running. Of course, if you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask! ;D

HTH


sumgai

[ChrisK]

What? You don't need 12 gauge, oxygen abated, pure copper degraded, hyperbole elated guitar cables?

I'm most sure that they're """"""""special"""""""" caps.

[CheshireCat]

sumgai said:

Here's the basic wiring diagram:

Score one for SG. Incidentally, a DPDT push/pull pot will give you phase inverting as well. That will give you every combination you'd need, or could have, short of splitting any mini-humbuckers you have in their.

Chesh

[cnc1]

Thank you to everyone who has responded. This has definitely been a great learning experience on this forum. I'm going to try to implement sumgai's schematic first. If I decide to go for the full deal, I'll give jhng's schematic a try. I appreciate all of the schematics, advice, and the tip to stay away from the guitar-mod store!

-- Chris

[sumgai]

Chris No. 2,

..... and the tip to stay away from the guitar-mod store!

-- Chris

Remember, that's just my opinion. It remains to be said that I can also see the other side of the coin. I don't know how long he's been around, but if he's been in business for more than a few years, then obviously some people feel that he's doing right by them. My opinion of those people shall remain unspoken. ;D


sumgai