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Post by unreg on Feb 22, 2021 11:52:17 GMT -5
hi all!  The past week’s weather has been destructive to water supply; hope everyone is still hydrated and doing well. Our water came back on, but was quickly shut off due to a break in an L (if you know plumbing, you probably know what an L is ) and so I tried using my 900°F soldering iron to solder the hole closed, but 900°F is not hot enough to heat a copper pipe (sry, I forget pipe diameter). So, we found my grandfather’s soldering iron, plugged it in, it still works, the tip is massive, it’s super hot, and we soldered that hole closed (using plumbing solder). However, after turning on the water, a tiny stream appeared. So, water was turned off and this morning we went back out and tried to fill the hole. A smaller super tiny stream that turns to mist before it hits the ground is there now. It can’t be soldered correctly bc there is water sitting in the pipe below the hole. The copper doesn’t ever become hot enough to correctly accept solder due to the water; we can hear that water boiling inside the pipe if the soldering iron is touching the pipe. Therefore, I’ve been pressing solder against the pipe with the soldering iron’s tip hoping that hole will be covered up. I feel that we should have let the solder sit longer before turning the water back on. The solder felt cool, but maybe needs longer to firm up so the water pressure doesn’t break it. It was 50°F outside this morning. This definitely isn’t a plumbing forum, but hope it reads interesting. 😁 Ooh, and there’s a canister of flux that I’ve been spreading on the area to solder too, but I’m not sure if it’s working since I can’t solder correctly. 🤔🙁 |
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Post by thetragichero on Feb 22, 2021 12:17:46 GMT -5
cpvc for the win (I've never messed with pex but what I've seen of it it's highly intriguing)
glad you're faring better now
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Post by unreg on Feb 22, 2021 12:32:00 GMT -5
cpvc for the win (I've never messed with pex but what I've seen of it it's highly intriguing) glad you're faring better now Thank you thetragichero!  I’m in the dark about “pex”, but I’m guessing it’s plumbing solder? The roll I’m using has no labels, but it quite a thick strand of solder. |
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Post by newey on Feb 22, 2021 12:43:41 GMT -5
I'm no plumber, but trying to solder a hole in a pipe sounds like a poor repair option. The solder is used to join two lengths of pipe together, not to substitute for a pipe. If you do the repair right, granted, it's more work now but less likely that you'll have the same problems in the future. And, you're lucky the water was off- if it leaks again in the future due to your solder repair, Murphy's law just about guarantees it will happen when you're away on vacation for a week or so, plenty of time for even a little "mist" to add up to serious water damage.
Also consider insulating that length of pipe, if it froze and cracked once, it's likely to do so again the next time there's a freeze. Another tip from The North- when the weather calls for freezing temps, crack one of the sink or bathtub faucets open just a bit, so water trickles out- this will help prevent freezing. Of course, when your municipal water supply is off, this won't help, but it will help if your water is on, but temps are headed down big time, as they were this past week.
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Post by unreg on Feb 22, 2021 15:27:01 GMT -5
I'm no plumber, but trying to solder a hole in a pipe sounds like a poor repair option. The solder is used to join two lengths of pipe together, not to substitute for a pipe. If you do the repair right, granted, it's more work now but less likely that you'll have the same problems in the future. Doing the repair right would seem to involve desoldering the entire pipe contraption from the wall of our house, desoldering and removing that L, soldering a new L (or preferably a T, so we could easily empty the pipe if necessary in the future) in its place, and reattaching that pipe contraption to the wall and our water filter. However, after my uncle closed the break with some of his massive pliers, there were a few tiny holes in the L. So, since a.) we aren’t plumbers either and b.) I desperately needed a shower, I chose to try and quickly solder shut the tiny holes. Got all but one. Also, a small section of copper pipe could be soldered over that closed crack, but, since the crack is on the side of the L, it is hard for me to understand how to fix that piece of copper in place so it could be soldered. I’m definitely not holding it in place. Also consider insulating that length of pipe, if it froze and cracked once, it's likely to do so again the next time there's a freeze. 😁 That pipe contraption was insulated; but not insulated well enough for extreme cold; it will be better insulated after it is not leaking; I removed all of the insulation while repairing the leak. Another tip from The North- when the weather calls for freezing temps, crack one of the sink or bathtub faucets open just a bit, so water trickles out- this will help prevent freezing. Of course, when your municipal water supply is off, this won't help, but it will help if your water is on, but temps are headed down big time, as they were this past week. Good tip; thank you sir! 😀 My parents have taught me this; our water was obviously off. Getting freezing again? Ooh, good to know... thank you again! |
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Post by unreg on Feb 22, 2021 20:30:36 GMT -5
At Ace Hardware, a sir told me that yes solder is used to join two pieces of metal together. He also said, “for instance, the metal in the pipe and the metal in the solder.” He also encouraged me to repair a copper pipe with solder and not to use stuff like Amazing Goop; and after reading its package back that said to not use Amazing Goop in areas contacting drinking water. After talking to my uncle, he agreed that solder seemed to be the good solution; he let me borrow his torch to heat up the L and then use that hot soldering iron to solder the holes closed. Tonight, after using the torch, that blue flame heat melted some lower solder and so the pipe started dripping again. Tomorrow I’ll use the torch again and hope for the best after the water goes away. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Feb 24, 2021 17:43:00 GMT -5
Our water came back on, but was quickly shut off due to a break in an L Repairing a cracked ell with solder is a particularly bad idea. I don't recommend doing that. There won't be sufficient area for contact and the solder itself is likely to fail. Solder isn't strong when bridging across a hole or gap. When you sweat fittings together, there the solder is drawn in by capillary action and region where the solder contacts the two closely gapped copper surfaces is about 1/2 inch long. That provides a LOT of strength in the direction the water is trying to force its way through. Also, the flux you should use on copper plumbing is a bit different than you should use for electrical work. For plumbing, use an acid based flux. But never use that for electrical work. A torch is more appropriate for plumbing than an iron. Even if the iron is large and hot. Your best course of action would be to remove the cracked ell and replace it. If you can clean the ends of the copper pipe well enough to get the new fitting on, great. But if necessary, cut the pipe and use couplers and stubs. |
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Post by unreg on Feb 24, 2021 19:52:04 GMT -5
Thank you reTrEaD for your expert advice! Also, the flux you should use on copper plumbing is a bit different than you should use for electrical work. For plumbing, use an acid based flux. But never use that for electrical work. A torch is more appropriate for plumbing than an iron. Even if the iron is large and hot. Your best course of action would be to remove the cracked ell and replace it. If you can clean the ends of the copper pipe well enough to get the new fitting on, great. But if necessary, cut the pipe and use couplers and stubs. Ah, I believe the flux I didn’t use very well was acid free. The iron allowed me to mold the solder on the tiny holes/crack bc that crack was on the ell’s side, so gravity wasn’t helpful when soldering with the torch. Or, I’m not sure how to solder with a torch. But the torch did allow the solder covering a lower pin hole to be removed and the pipe successfully dripped dry. I agree replacing the cracked ell would have been the best option. The ell drips once every 50 seconds now... but that time limit has been increasing in length of time between drips. Gtg. Sry. |
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Post by thetragichero on Feb 24, 2021 21:43:00 GMT -5
don't know where this is, but those shark bite things and/or some compression fittings might do the trick. no drips are good. besides costing money you're destroying whatever wood (structural or not) around it. problems have a way of of getting worse exponentially
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Post by reTrEaD on Feb 24, 2021 21:54:44 GMT -5
unreg, I hope I'm wrong but I reckon you currently have a ticking time-bomb on your hands, almost certain to fail. The only question is: Sooner or Later?
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Post by unreg on Feb 25, 2021 21:50:56 GMT -5
don't know where this is, but those shark bite things and/or some compression fittings might do the trick. no drips are good. besides costing money you're destroying whatever wood (structural or not) around it. problems have a way of of getting worse exponentially Well, we have a coffee cup below that “drip”, though I don’t believe it’s dripping anymore bc the cup has been there 3 days and the water level only rose less than a cm the first day; that level of water has been the same ever since day 1. There was a tiny gecko sitting in the bottom of the cup on the beginning of day 2 AND he/she was sitting there alive this morning (day 3). So God has solved our dripping problem. Or that gecko 🦎 can drink water with the best crowd of water drinkers... 😋 unreg, I hope I'm wrong but I reckon you currently have a ticking time-bomb on your hands, almost certain to fail. The only question is: Sooner or Later? If it fails then we’ll be forced to repair the pipe. Though, I do believe it was soldered well. There was just a small spot close to the house where the solder connection wasn’t “fixed” bc I failed to see that part of the solder spot. But, that doesn’t seem to be dripping anymore. |
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Post by unreg on Dec 28, 2022 21:36:26 GMT -5
Yes, reTrEaD, it failed a few days ago. (Three days ago that soldered water pipe burst at the solder point during the freeze. So, I ended up removing that entire pipe contraption; used my uncle’s grinder to cut the copper pipe at the top and also near the house. Then installed a semi-short piece of pex diagonally to complete the pipe[; took an entire day of researching/trips to the stores; ate lunch at 5pm after the water works again]. The pex meets the copper pipe through sharkbites. The sharkbites installed without solder! Nice! Then wrapped the pipe with insulation and covered that with a lot of black electrical tape; the duck tape I had used previously had broken apart after a year and the old insulation had broken apart allowing the water in that soldered section to freeze. Sharkbites and bendable pex are wonderful! ) |
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Post by unreg on Jan 9, 2023 20:05:38 GMT -5
don't know where this is, but those shark bite things and/or some compression fittings might do the trick. oooh, thetragichero, you mentioned shark bites! My cousin’s husband told me about Sharkbites after it broke again… and so I eventually researched them and used them! I didn’t research them when you mentioned shark bites bc it wasn’t necessary, then, to use them. But, your advice is highly appreciated! Thank you sir! —- Sry for bumping this thread again; I realize it isn’t guitar related… it’s in the coffee shop though. |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 9, 2023 20:17:12 GMT -5
Is it possible to wrap some heat tape on those pipes?
HTC1
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Post by unreg on Jan 9, 2023 22:45:47 GMT -5
Heat tape? Ummm… I will research that… thank you cynical1! |
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Post by sumgai on Jan 10, 2023 0:22:14 GMT -5
Sharkbites;
While you might see/hear old plumbers say "Push-to-connect fittings behind a wall are just waiting to cause a leak that will cause major damage" or some such, most plumbers can't answer one question: "Why do so many people use them, without bad consequences?"
I'm not too clear on exactly where they were invented (Australia? Japan? Germany?), but I've heard that they were around for probably 20 years before being brought into the USA by Home Depot, back in 2004 or 2005 (depending on what source you read). I figure that if other countries don't have problems with push-to-connect connectors, then why should they suddenly be a bad thing in the USA? The answer to that is obvious: it "robs" plumbers of income.... as with any (or all!) DIY jobs.
I can feel for the plumber, until I recall that they charge a King's ransom for their work (and parts). But that's their business, and I'm not gonna get into trying to tell them how to run it.
Moral of the story: use Sharkbite connectors with confidence. Sharkbite also makes their own brand of PEX. I've been using it as I slowly replace the Polybutyl in our current home, and it also works like a charm.
HTH
EDIT: After a bit if research, I see that both the connectors and the PEX made for sale in North America are manufactured in Alabama. IOW, not imported, with the attendant cost increase. That's a good thing.
sumgai
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Post by unreg on Jan 10, 2023 1:31:55 GMT -5
Is it possible to wrap some heat tape on those pipes? HTC1 Ace Hardware taught that Heat Tape is a synonym for Heat Cable… and that’s a cable you wrap around pipes and it heats the pipes. And it has to be plugged in. And they listed 4 environments where Heat Tape can be used; “outside” wasn’t one of the 4. The copper-pipe/pex/copper-pipe lives outside of our house and it connects our water filter to the house; so, I guess, no, Heat Tape can’t be wrapped around those pipes. Just to note: pex pipe/tube is flexible and can handle frozen water just fine. The copper pipe and pex is wrapped really well so it should be ok. —- sumgai, I acquired a Sharkbite ell and a 45° angle Sharkbite from Home Depot to install my diagonal pex. Some Sharkbite reviews were low stars bc people complained that they couldn’t remove any pipe from any Sharkbite without having to purchase MULTIPLE Sharkbite removal tools. —Honestly, my 3/4” Sharkbite removal tool cost ~$3.00; why complain about something so small? If I had to remove pipe/pex from a 1/2” Sharkbite, I’d need to buy a ~$3.00 1/2” Sharkbite removal tool… so? Yes, they allow for DIY! All the low star reviews hurt the Sharkbite rating.  But, it’s fun installing them! You can even turn the pipe/pex after the Sharkbite connection! EDIT: I had to get the Sharkbite removal tool bc I cut my pex piece about an 8th of an inch too long, and since that 1/8” distance was too small to cleanly sever with my uncle’s pipe cutting contraption I took the removed pex to him and he easily cut away an 8th inch with one of his large electric disc saws. Actually, the pex ended up being a tiny-tad too long, but it’s bendable so no harm done. |
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Post by sumgai on Jan 10, 2023 13:35:46 GMT -5
unreg, Heat tape/heat wrap/heating wire is made specifically for outdoor use! It was originally intended to keep water lines running out to remote livestock watering tanks from freezing up, so using them next to a house is gonna be a no-brainer. In fact, I have a propane-powered outdoor tankless water heater (A.O. Smith ATI-240, purchased to avoid punching holes in my roof), and both the feed and return lines are each wrapped in about 3 feet of heating wire, and powered from the same (GFCI) outlet as the heater itself. Back right around Christmas, the temp plummeted to about 14 or 15 degrees overnight, for 3 nights. No problem in our house, we had hot water galore!  IOW, whoever said that it wasn't for outdoor use, ask them in a nice way to explain exactly why would one use heat tape in an environment that will never freeze over? HTH sumgai p.s. These things usually come with an automatic thermostat that turns on at 38-40 degrees. Seems wasteful to me, in a household setting. But then again, I imagine that livestock will be grateful for it. |
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Post by newey on Jan 10, 2023 14:39:12 GMT -5
ask them in a nice way to explain exactly why would one use heat tape in an environment that will never freeze over? Just because something is "indoors' doesn't mean it will never freeze over. I've seen heat tape used on water lines run through an unheated crawlspace under the house. If the floor is well-insulated, the heat from the house won't necessarily keep the area from freezing when temps go below -10°F |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 10, 2023 15:14:47 GMT -5
Ace Hardware taught that Heat Tape is a synonym for Heat Cable… and that’s a cable you wrap around pipes and it heats the pipes. And it has to be plugged in. And they listed 4 environments where Heat Tape can be used; “outside” wasn’t one of the 4. You really need to find a better source... A little research at Heat Tape for Pipes: How to Prevent Frozen Pipes says heat tape\cable is safe outdoors for copper, PEX, steel... Not sure what Ace was selling, but it sure ain't what you want. I've used this stuff outdoors on pipes living in central Wisconsin above the frost line...it works about 98% of the time if rated correctly and installed properly. A little Google and you should be good. HTC1 |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 10, 2023 15:17:29 GMT -5
I imagine that livestock will be grateful for it. That, and it helps keep them from going belly up... HTC1 |
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Post by sumgai on Jan 11, 2023 1:59:58 GMT -5
ask them in a nice way to explain exactly why would one use heat tape in an environment that will never freeze over? Just because something is "indoors' doesn't mean it will never freeze over. I've seen heat tape used on water lines run through an unheated crawlspace under the house. If the floor is well-insulated, the heat from the house won't necessarily keep the area from freezing when temps go below -10°F Technically speaking, your described scenario is "outdoors", i.e. the enclosure provides no protection for those pipes. But I realize now that I constructed my sentence poorly. It should've read like so: And, National Building Codes require, not just suggest, that where horizontal water piping that is to be located in a crawl space, it must be fully contained within any insulation under the floor. These rules have been in force since the mid-70's, but that's not to say that every builder (or remodeler) obeyed these rules to the letter. HTH sumgai |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 11, 2023 13:01:37 GMT -5
National Building Codes require, not just suggest, that where horizontal water piping that is to be located in a crawl space, it must be fully contained within any insulation under the floor. These rules have been in force since the mid-70's, but that's not to say that every builder (or remodeler) obeyed these rules to the letter. That describes a world in which screws do not come loose and fall out... I'm gonna have to point out the reality where lack of local building codes, lax inspection, non-existent enforcement and just a general lack of concern by homeowners to merely acknowledge these codes...much less adopt them into their renovations. Don't get me started on the vast swaths of this country with "unrestricted zoning" and the Rube Goldberg creations that spring from it... From my experience, you can count on anything built before 1990...maybe later...having most of the work and inspections performed by Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder and the drummer from Def Leppard.   Sorry, had to vent... HTC1 |
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Post by sumgai on Jan 11, 2023 22:12:20 GMT -5
c1, your fame precedes you: I read out loud your previous line, and the wife knew immediately who wrote it!
But yes, there are places where one can do damn near anything they might wish without fear of legal consequences, and there are places where John Law is just looking to come down hard on anyone who so much as even thinks of getting a little out of line....
And don't get me started on home inspectors, they rate right up there with copyright maximalists, Wall Street profiteers, phone jails, drummers, RWNJ's, and Gawd only knows who all else that are the dregs of a polite society.
sumgai
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Post by newey on Jan 11, 2023 23:08:21 GMT -5
Wall Street profiteers, phone jails, drummers, RWNJ's, and Gawd only knows who all else that are the dregs of a polite society. When you add "drummers" to that list, you're giving a bad name to Wall Street Profiteers . . .  |
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Post by unreg on Jan 12, 2023 3:11:48 GMT -5
Thank you sumgai and cynical1! I believe one of the locations listed was in/under a crawlspace, newey. Great comment! To me, “outside” describes the place where the copper/pex/copper pipe is; there’s no roof or floor; just grass and sky. A while ago, my uncle suggested putting a cover over the pipe, with a heat lamp underneath when it freezes. I’m not going to attempt Heat Tape bc my dad survived growing up in a house without heat; they only had a stove that they could open up; that heated one part of the house. They had an outhouse. They also lacked running water. Consequently, I’ve always lacked running water during freezes. I simply go outside and turn the water off; then we drain the pipes; and life is ok. (We have lots of clean water stored in large jars, so survival IS really possible when the water is turned off. And yes, after the water worked again, I ate lunch and then took a shower; it’s wonderful! ) When I think about your hot water, sumgai, next time it freezes, I’ll smile for you. |
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