Wrapping pickups in copper tape

[frets]

Yabba Dabba Guys,

I had a customer come in the shop with his Harley Benton ST and a set of boutique pickups AND a printout from Premiere Guitar about wrapping single coils in copper tape. I’m going to do it for him, but I figured that y’all have batted this topic around and I want to know if it really does anything. Seems silly to me. I’ve known about it but I never paid any attention to the topic. 😼 Thoughts?

[blademaster2]

Hi there,

I would have expected to hear the difference, but I purchased a set of Strat-type replacement pickups from StewMac a few years back (Golden Age pickups) for my brother in law and installed them. They had copper tape around them, connected to ground. Comparing their sound to the Seymour Duncan SSL-1 pickups I have used in my own guitars, and a set of Tonerider Surfari's in another guitar I own, I cannot say that this was in any reducing the high frequencies that I could discern. All of them had the expected glassy-highs I have come to know in Strats.


In theory any metal nearby in the changing magnetic field will introduce more eddy current losses and reduce the high frequencies. I understand that it varies depending on the metal used, so perhaps copper is not as sensitive.

[unreg]

Hi mam,

I can’t understand why someone would pay another to add tape to guitar hardware. Is it actually just wrapping each single coil with copper tape?

Sry this adds nothing to the advice/conversation asked for.

Blessings,
unreg


(Sigh, sorry, I understand now. Get that someone has a guitar they love, and they find an “improvement” article somewhere, and they don’t want to “ruin” their guitar during the application of the article’s “improvement”, so they put their trust in a professional.)

[thetragichero]

i could've sworn there was a thread on this somewhere but my lazy browsing didn't find it. someone like antigua might have some good insight/test results

[b4nj0]

I can't really see as it's any different from having covers on a hummer, Tele neck pup, filtertron or "Lipstick" etc etc. I suppose there is the capacity to "ground" to consider, but surely that can only affect the very outside layer of the turns because the vast majority of inner turns are Faraday screened by the few surface turns?

frets; you could enquire whether the customer has any other guitars with the pickup covers removed.

e&oe ...

[newey]

Yes, we have discussed this fairly extensively, way back in the dim mists of time. I trust that if tragichero couldn't find the thread in question, neither could I.

But we had a member who did some pretty extensive testing of various wrapping schemes, looking at loss of highs vs. noise reduction. IIRC, he found it did somewhat reduce the high frequencies as well as reducing noise, but his final take-away was that, if one left a small gap in the copper wrapping, going only like 9/10s of the way around and leaving about a 10% gap, the noise reduction was roughly equivalent to wrapping the coil completely but without the loss of the highs.

But it's been a long time, so I could be way off base. Maybe JohnH will recall the thread; it's hard to search for because there are so many possible search terms.

[newey]

As suspected, I was unable to find the thread in question, although I found many other places where the thread is referenced.

What I did find was these two links. The first one is from old time member D2o, scroll down to reply #25. There, D2o decribes his process for shielding the inside of Strat pickup covers w/ aluminum HVAC tape:

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/4401?

And this link from old member woody, where he discusses using copper mesh to wrap coils, and recommends leaving about a 5% gap. Woody may have been the one with the original thread on this, now that I've read through this subsequent one. Unfortunately, his pix have gone bye-bye over the years:

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/1277

[frets]

Thanks Newey, thanks guys,

After perusing the posts, I feel whatever good that achieved by wrapping would be minuscule and almost assuredly, imperceptible. 👂👂

[newey]

Per the wisdom of Woody, who was a presence here back "in the day", I'd leave a 5% gap. The issue is that, if you go completely around, you have effectively added another layer to the coils. Leave the gap, the copper doesn't connect to itself and you nonetheless get the noise reduction.

I had forgotten the bit from D2o about how he shields the insides of his Strat covers. Have to give that a try one of these years . . .

[thetragichero]

I'd imagine the effect is much like "cloth wire sounds best": more perceptible "between the ears" than something that can be measured using science. guitarists tend to be an easy mark for this kinda spin

[newey]

Mar 5, 2021 14:45:18 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

guitarists tend to be an easy mark for this kinda spin

Unfortunately, it's not just guitarists. Ever watch infomercials on TV?

PT Barnum (allegedly) had it right when he said that no one ever went broke by underestimating the intelligence of people.

[antigua]

The copper tape does cause eddy currents, because there is continuity around the coil, and if the coil were cut down the side, that wouldn't be the case. It's still not as bad as brass cover because most of the eddy current losses come from the top down. It's a lot like an open top cover, but the copper tape is hugging the coil a lot more closely. It also adds some degree of capacitance, more so if the start of the coil is on the outside, right beside the shielding. 

Even though neither the eddy currents not the capacitance makes a huge audible difference, I would remove the copper tape out of principle. Just knowing that it's there getting in the way of vintage correctness and not providing much benefit, bothers me. They're a cheap pickup that can be made vintage correct with relatively little effort, but lately I'm seeing vintage correct AlNiCo pickups on Amazon that are even cheaper and don't require any modifications, such as the "OriPure" for $31. 

I have an Duncan Designed SC 101, I measured it in 2018, but I'll test it again later, sometimes this week, because at the time I wasn't as concerned about the copper shield so much as the inductance and the overall sound, so I didn't test that as thoroughly as I wish I had. 

[frets]

Antigua,
Thank you for such a comprehensive response. 😽
BTW - I’m getting ready to start winding my own pickups. I hope you will test some of them someday.

[thetragichero]

that's something i've wanted to try but already have so much on my plate... currently learning more than i've ever wanted about drums/cymbals putting a kit together to donate to the church (while also upgrading the kit in the studio)... at this point i might as well learn how to play since i've always had so much trouble finding a drummer

[antigua]

Mar 7, 2021 16:04:47 GMT -5 frets said:

Antigua,
Thank you for such a comprehensive response. 😽
BTW - I’m getting ready to start winding my own pickups. I hope you will test some of them someday.

Here, I just gathered more info guitarnuts2.proboards.com/post/98599/thread 

With regard to your customer, check if the coils' finish is to ground or hot. If they're wired to coil finish to ground, then adding the copper tape will make no difference of any kind, it won't even block noise. If they pickup wired coil start to ground, then it will block noise, but it will virtually add one foot of guitar cable capacitance, which is not audible IMO.

If the tape is wrapped all the way around, and it has continuity with itself, such that electrical current can flow around the shield, there will be about 2dBV drop at resonance, barely audible, sort of like turning the tone knob down by 1/20th. For the sake of preserving the vintage single coil sound as much as possible, I'd avoid the unnecessary eddy currents, even though it's not much. In fact the pot tolerances alone can make more than 1/20th a turn of difference, but I'm not above doing things for the sake of doing it.   

[frets]

Hey Antigua,

The customer with the copper tape came to pickup his guitar. I showed him your two messages. He then wanted me to take the tape off of the pickups. I charged him an extra $15. Ha!😺😺. Thanks again!!

[stevewf]

Mar 8, 2021 1:58:27 GMT -5 antigua said:

With regard to your customer, check if the coils' finish is to ground or hot. If they're wired to coil finish to ground, then adding the copper tape will make no difference of any kind, it won't even block noise. If they pickup wired coil start to ground, then it will block noise, but it will virtually add one foot of guitar cable capacitance, which is not audible IMO.   

Ah! So if I have a choice of which lead to attach to ground, then I might consider ensuring that it be the Finish, for hum cancelling. I guess it's like the outer wrappings of the coil wire, when attached to ground, act as shielding for the rest of the wraps. Never thought of that!

This being the case, I've finally found a reason that truly "Reverse Winding" can indeed make a difference. I always thought that the winding direction wouldn't matter, so long as the electrical current is CW or CCW, but now I see it can come into play for some built-in hum cancelling.

[cynical1]

Mar 5, 2021 12:58:34 GMT -5 frets said:

Thanks Newey, thanks guys,

After perusing the posts, I feel whatever good that achieved by wrapping would be minuscule and almost assuredly, imperceptible. 👂👂

And this is the dirty little secret no one in the field of "mojo" related marketing wants to hear...

Hey, if a customer wants them wrapped in copper tape, and he's paying, have at it.

ChrisK used to call it UNOBTANIUM...

HTC1

[frets]

I stand by my statement, after doing it a couple of times, I think it’s a complete waste of time with no audible improvement. Just my opinion.


But I will do what the customer asks. I just have a discussion with them. It’s funny how guys can read something in a less sophisticated forum and believe it over a luthier/tech who is informing them otherwise. Interesting psychological influencers.

[sumgai]

Jul 8, 2022 11:49:47 GMT -5 cynical1 said:

Mar 5, 2021 12:58:34 GMT -5 frets said:

Thanks Newey, thanks guys,

After perusing the posts, I feel whatever good that achieved by wrapping would be minuscule and almost assuredly, imperceptible. 👂👂

And this is the dirty little secret no one in the field of "mojo" related marketing wants to hear...

Hey, if a customer wants them wrapped in copper tape, and he's paying, have at it.

ChrisK used to call it UNOBTANIUM...

HTC1

No, that's what he called any physical item that was virtually impossible to acquire.

Chris most often referred to marketing BS as "FelderGarb". A common Germanic meme that reverses the initials of the words geld (money) and farb (color). This is meant to literally label something as "the color of gold, without any basis in reality of actually being real gold". IOW, a major load of BS.  He applied that label liberally throughout his time here, to both marketing-speak and to legend and lore that was unsupported by factual evidence.  If for nothing else, for this he will always be remembered.

HTH



sumgai
 

[sumgai]

Jul 8, 2022 13:16:48 GMT -5 frets said:

But I will do what the customer asks. I just have a discussion with them. It’s funny how guys can read something in a less sophisticated forum and believe it over a luthier/tech who is informing them otherwise. Interesting psychological influencers.

That's because you're not their guitar hero. Only guitar heroes are smart enough to sound like..... heroes. And only guitar heroes can have the smarts to influence one's purchasing decisions, vis-a-vis that Mojo Tone, because...... reasons.

No guitar tech can ever have the actual smarts to be an influencer, period. Even when journalists in the field interview them with an eye to revealing the real secrets behind the hero's sound, they still can't get any respect.

Same goes for you, sorry to have to say.






sumgai

[frets]

Sumgai,
You’re absolutely right. I can tell a customer that what they are considering is not going to produce the result or will actually clash with another feature of the wiring, they keep on referring back to what they read on TDRI. It is just amazing that two or three posts on a subject permeate the customer’s mind to the extent that they wont’t let go. Then when it’s done, they understand that it was not right for the system and they end up blaming not there inability to comprehend that forum posts can be spurious comments based on hearsay or grounded in guys that don’t know what they are talking about and instead they end up blaming me…like I didn’t do it right.

I’ve got to the point that when a customer holds on to some desire for the guitar and I know it’s going to be a mess, I just tell them I won’t do it. Sometimes it convinces them. Other times they walk off in a huff.

I don’t mean to complain, it just frustrating.

[newey]

Jul 8, 2022 15:18:14 GMT -5 sumgai said:

It’s funny how guys can read something in a less sophisticated forum and believe it over a luthier/tech who is informing them otherwise. Interesting psychological influencers.

"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest . . ." as Mr. Simon wrote (and sang) many years ago. So has it always been.

[frets]

Newey,

I said that just so you know. I don’t want Sumgai to get associated with my craziness. Ha!😸

But you are completely 100% correct. You’d just be amazed how many times it happens. I can convince about half. I guess that’s not bad.

[sumgai]

Jul 8, 2022 17:42:44 GMT -5 frets said:

I’ve got to the point that when a customer holds on to some desire for the guitar and I know it’s going to be a mess, I just tell them I won’t do it. Sometimes it convinces them. Other times they walk off in a huff.

Understood.  My life can be summed up in a nutshell like so: "The last person to touch it is the one to blame for all problems.  Period."

It's the one or two disgruntled idiots that go off in a huff who can get the word out that you're either: a) lazy; b) stupid; or c) both.  Those are the ones than can stifle your business for weeks, even months, because to other (potential) customers, they are the local "guitar heroes", and thus they are fully accredited influencers.  That's why it's a fine line between "you've been fully apprised of the potential (or likely) problems" and "get off my lawn!".

About the only thing that worked, in the long run, was to say: "Hey, I want your money just as much as the next guy, but I don't want it bad enough to let you feel that I screwed you over."  Or words to that effect.  With one or two exceptions in my entire career, that line has gained me as much respect as anything else I've ever done for the guitar-playing community as a whole.

HTH




sumgai

[frets]

Sumgai😸,
I don’t want you to get the impression that I’m abrupt. I do talk to them at length and use a similar strategy you presented; but, with some guys, who just won’t listen to reason, I do just tell them that in good conscience I can’t do it because I know it will just come back to me to be fixed and cost them more money. I focus on their happiness and sometimes I tell them, “Maybe you’d be happier taking it to someone else.” I’ve learned with these hardheaded stubborn ones that doing what they ask for ends up in more of my time to change it to the way I recommended. They never want to pay to fix it, argue that it was my fault, and it becomes a big stressful drama. To me, it’s best to guide them comprehensively and if they remain adamant to recommend them to someone else. If they bad mouth me, so be it, for in the end, they will learn what they wanted does not work.

[b4nj0]

Maybe adopt something along the lines of "It has cost you nothing for my advice that it won't achieve the result you're looking for, perhaps you could use the money you've just saved to put towards paying someone else to carry out the work for you."

でつ e&oe ...

[newey]

Jul 10, 2022 1:30:13 GMT -5 b4nj0 said:

Maybe adopt something along the lines of "It has cost you nothing for my advice that it won't achieve the result you're looking for, perhaps you could use the money you've just saved to put towards paying someone else to carry out the work for you."

That seems a bit snarky for a customer . . .

[b4nj0]

I guess that's why I was an employee rather than an employer. Tried both but the latter did not sit well with me. Harsh or not, when the "customer" inevitably finds out you were talking sense all along, you may garner long term business and a rep. for putting service before profit. Short term loss with longer term gain.

FWIW and to avoid continuing to tread on gumbo's toes, I wouldn't wrap pickups in copper tape for pretty much the same reason that I wouldn't use shielded (coaxial) wiring.

でつ e&oe ...

[yanyan]

Jul 10, 2022 9:15:03 GMT -5 b4nj0 said:

shielded (coaxial) wiring.

This gave me such a headache with my Strat!