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Post by newey on Jun 15, 2021 20:32:05 GMT -5
In a totally unrelated discussion of his recent project, guitarnerdswe mentioned that he liked the middle pickup on his Strat a bit lower to avoid hitting it with his pick. I immediately thought "Yeah, me too", I should lower that on a Strat as I am always clubbing the middle pickup. But then, that started me thinking (I know, I know, "Danger, Will Robinson . . ."  ) When I am playing a Strat-type 3-pickup guitar, do I subconsciously alter my playing style because of the pickup layout? IOW, if I was playing a particular song, or even just a riff, would the layout of a Strat-type guitar cause me to change, even if only slightly, my picking style, positioning of my hand, etc., simply due to the architecture of the thing, as compared to what I might be doing on the same tune, riff, etc. played on, say, an LP? The more I think about it, the more I think the answer is "yes"- I do play the LP differently than a Strat, playing the same tune, etc., not because the pickups are different, not because the neck scale is different, but simply because of the layout of the thing. The middle pickup on a Strat tends to make me want to strum or pick ahead (i.e., neckside) of the middle picklup, whereas on a HH guitasr like an LP I'm more in the middle. Which leads to the next obvious question: Can we discern to what extent all of the folderol and blathering about this guitar versus that guitar may come down to, not a difference in the pickups, or scale length, or whatever, but to a difference in how one plays the guitar given the dictates of its layout and overall form? I could make a similar point about playing a song, riff, etc on an acoustic versus an electric. Sure, the axes are vastly dissimilar. A big part of the difference in tone, resonance, and so forth will undoubtedly come down to the differences in construction. But is some part of that diffence due to a diffence in how we handle, strum, and generally manipulate the one instrument versus the other? I dunno, feel free to fire upon this somewhat stained bedsheet that I have run up the Coffee Shop flagpole . . . |
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Post by gckelloch on Jun 15, 2021 23:35:21 GMT -5
In a totally unrelated discussion of his recent project, guitarnerdswe mentioned that he liked the middle pickup on his Strat a bit lower to avoid hitting it with his pick. I immediately thought "Yeah, me too", I should lower that on a Strat as I am always clubbing the middle pickup. But then, that started me thinking (I know, I know, "Danger, Will Robinson . . ." ) When I am playing a Strat-type 3-pickup guitar, do I subconsciously alter my playing style because of the pickup layout? IOW, if I was playing a particular song, or even just a riff, would the layout of a Strat-type guitar cause me to change, even if only slightly, my picking style, positioning of my hand, etc., simply due to the architecture of the thing, as compared to what I might be doing on the same tune, riff, etc. played on, say, an LP? The more I think about it, the more I think the answer is "yes"- I do play the LP differently than a Strat, playing the same tune, etc., not because the pickups are different, not because the neck scale is different, but simply because of the layout of the thing. The middle pickup on a Strat tends to make me want to strum or pick ahead (i.e., neckside) of the middle picklup, whereas on a HH guitasr like an LP I'm more in the middle. Which leads to the next obvious question: Can we discern to what extent all of the folderol and blathering about this guitar versus that guitar may come down to, not a difference in the pickups, or scale length, or whatever, but to a difference in how one plays the guitar given the dictates of its layout and overall form? I could make a similar point about playing a song, riff, etc on an acoustic versus an electric. Sure, the axes are vastly dissimilar. A big part of the difference in tone, resonance, and so forth will undoubtedly come down to the differences in construction. But is some part of that diffence due to a diffence in how we handle, strum, and generally manipulate the one instrument versus the other? I dunno, feel free to fire upon this somewhat stained bedsheet that I have run up the Coffee Shop flagpole . . . "Protein" stains are a beotch, huh?  Yes, where, how, and with what you pluck the strings has as much effect as anything else. I've always picked ~1/2" in front of the middle pickup though, so it's not an issue for me. I think that's the "sweet" spot, but there's no wrong or right. Accurate note timbre control is likely less possible when there is more magnetic string pull though. Also, keep in mind that sympathetic guitar resonances can only drain string energy. They can not reinforce it unless said resonances are generated by an external force. Please excuse my clumsy wording. |
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Post by gumbo on Jun 17, 2021 2:00:05 GMT -5
FWIW, when I think of (sometimes !?) the amazing array of possible choices of pickups, internal electronics and also strings, that can be fitted to a Strat, I would postulate that there may be any number of possible Sweet Spots in terms of pleasing output from the guitar... ...for that, I conclude it would be mostly due to the favo(u)red ergonomics that may apply to the individual player, let alone stature and whether they play standing or sitting... In my case, where my Strats are also "Roland-Ready" examples which include the Roland hex pickup installed just fore of the bridge, I personally know that my playing style alters considerably depending upon whether I am utilising the mag pups or the hex pup...not to mention the times when I (often) blend the output of the mag and the hex pups by selecting the 'both' position of the Mix Switch fitted to this model of Strat. Answer? I think there is no simple one-size-fits-all type of deal...and simple ergonomics have a GREAT deal to do with it...possibly more than the height of the middle mag pup. I also go looking for my back brace before I pick up my Son's LP....  Oh, and to make matters more complicated, I KNOW that I hold and play my recently-acquired Burns Bison differently to EITHER a Strat or an LP....  g-f-b |
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Post by newey on Jun 17, 2021 4:45:20 GMT -5
my recently-acquired Burns Bison OK, now I'm jealous.  |
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Post by unreg on Jun 17, 2021 11:38:58 GMT -5
my recently-acquired Burns Bison OK, now I'm jealous. ummm, so… now we regrettably venture off topic… Mr. Burns made guitars in ‘61 and ‘62. The first 50 had 4 pickups. Sir gumbo, www.burnsguitars.com/bison62.phpis this your guitar? It doesn’t even list a price. 🤔 |
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Post by newey on Jun 17, 2021 12:24:43 GMT -5
ummm, so… now we regrettably venture off topic… Well, a) It's the Coffee Shop, perfect place to do so. b) It's gumbo, what else should we expect? The history of the Burns brand is a good deal more complex than that. They've been in and out of business more times than I can count. And they've always made some interesting guitars. Back in the day, Hank Marvin used Burns guitars, and later, when Brian May had commercial copies of his "Red Special" made and sold, Burns made them. I'm not from Britain, but my understanding is that, back in the '60s, buying a US-made Fender, Gibson, etc. was prohibitively expensive in Britain due to the customs duties importers had to pay. SO companies like Burns got a toehold in the UK market because they could offer much lower prices. If you like oddball guitars, Burns has built more than a few over the years. Search for a mid-70's Burns Flyte model- looks like a Flying V that someone forgot to cut the "V" into. They also made a short-scale electric 12-string, only place I know where you could get something like that. Personally, I want a Burns Steer:  |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 17, 2021 18:26:38 GMT -5
not a difference in the pickups, or scale length, or whatever, but to a difference in how one plays the guitar given the dictates of its layout and overall form? In my opinion, scale length is a small (but not insignificant) factor in left hand technique. When playing near the nut, the stretches are a bit longer. When playing at the other end of the fretboard, there is a bit more room for your fingers between the frets. But in regards to the right hand, layout and form can have a significant impact on technique. Where we pick, in terms of the fractional distance between the end of the string and it's vibrating length can have a strong effect on the harmonic content. Open picking lanes vary between instruments. Also, there is much more real estate between the bridge and the tail of an LP than on a Strat. That does affect the ergonomics of where the right hand falls naturally on the instrument. When it comes to palm-muting, my favorite bridge is the Gibson wraparound.  It's easy to locate with the right hand, without even looking and super-comfy to extend just a tiny bit of the edge of the palm to the vibrating portion of the string. The Gibson tuno isn't too bad. Lesser Strat saddles (the stamped type) that have height-adjustment screws standing proud can be VERY uncomfortable. Definitely an incentive to upgrade to the machined saddles where the height-adjustment screws can be flush or even recessed. Sometimes I like to dig in and 'thumb drag' to lessen the fundamental and accentuate certain harmonics. The optimum position varies depending on fretted length. It's convenient to use pickups and other visual cues as 'markers'. But those are in different locations on different guitars. So that needs to be re-learned for the particular guitar. Anyway, interesting fodder for thought you provided, newey. And I reckon we've just scratched the surface. |
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Post by thetragichero on Jun 17, 2021 19:43:21 GMT -5
guitar, bass, whatever the side of my palm is always resting on the bridge. not always muting but always within reach. les paul also provides a nice place to hook my pinky (treble side of bridge humbucker) if i'm doing more intricate stuff on the tiny strings. i am certain my technique is lacking but meh works for me
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Post by gumbo on Jun 18, 2021 5:37:55 GMT -5
ummm, so… now we regrettably venture off topic… Well, a) It's the Coffee Shop, perfect place to do so. b) It's gumbo, what else should we expect? The history of the Burns brand is a good deal more complex than that. They've been in and out of business more times than I can count. And they've always made some interesting guitars. Back in the day, Hank Marvin used Burns guitars, and later, when Brian May had commercial copies of his "Red Special" made and sold, Burns made them. I'm not from Britain, but my understanding is that, back in the '60s, buying a US-made Fender, Gibson, etc. was prohibitively expensive in Britain due to the customs duties importers had to pay. SO companies like Burns got a toehold in the UK market because they could offer much lower prices. If you like oddball guitars, Burns has built more than a few over the years. Search for a mid-70's Burns Flyte model- looks like a Flying V that someone forgot to cut the "V" into. They also made a short-scale electric 12-string, only place I know where you could get something like that. Personally, I want a Burns Steer: Here ya go... Just get JohnH to pop down the road from his place and buy it for you..... www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/shellharbour/guitars-amps/burns-steer-guitar-very-rare-near-mint-case-/1276147764...and yes...the Burns history goes on and on and on...way past Jim Burns the Man.. ...and about a year ago, the business was bought by Andertons... I'll waffle on another day...gotta go and solder some stuff while I still have the energy and inclination... g-f-b (great-*-burns) |
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Post by gumbo on Jun 18, 2021 5:48:38 GMT -5
OK, now I'm jealous. ummm, so… now we regrettably venture off topic… Mr. Burns made guitars in ‘61 and ‘62. The first 50 had 4 pickups. Sir gumbo , www.burnsguitars.com/bison62.phpis this your guitar? It doesn’t even list a price. 🤔 No.. unreg Mine is the apparently rarer Club Series 64, in black with a scroll headstock....and three-piece pickguard ...still trying to find out the history of this particular guitar; it has a serial number beginning with 'SU', which some people say on the 'Net indicates that it was a 'Special Unit' (or 'custom shop'-type production item)...came with a 'real' Burns case, which in itself is a rarity for these guitars in Oz, so I am told.... Early days...will post more info when I get some... if I can put the thing down long enough to get back on the 'Net for more searching...  thanks for your interest ! |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 18, 2021 8:50:51 GMT -5
guitar, bass, whatever the side of my palm is always resting on the bridge. not always muting but always within reach. les paul also provides a nice place to hook my pinky (treble side of bridge humbucker) if i'm doing more intricate stuff on the tiny strings. i am certain my technique is lacking but meh works for me What you described is called anchoring. And that's the most contentious topic I can think of. Some folks are adamant about not anchoring, citing limitation of mobility, wrist tension, and causing damage to yourself. You should NEVER anchor. Anchoring is BAD.My take on the subject is: Recognize the benefits and drawbacks to anything you do. If something provides convenience, don't be afraid to use it. But also be aware of how it can limit you and find other ways, when those other ways are more appropriate to what you're trying to accomplish at that particular time. / 2¢ |
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Post by unreg on Jun 18, 2021 16:05:35 GMT -5
Wow Sir newey, that’s sold by Chris Martin! Was an incredible concert! Where is JohnH when you need him? ummm, so… now we regrettably venture off topic… Mr. Burns made guitars in ‘61 and ‘62. The first 50 had 4 pickups. Sir gumbo , www.burnsguitars.com/bison62.phpis this your guitar? It doesn’t even list a price. 🤔 No.. unreg Mine is the apparently rarer Club Series 64, in black with a scroll headstock....and three-piece pickguard ...still trying to find out the history of this particular guitar; it has a serial number beginning with 'SU', which some people say on the 'Net indicates that it was a 'Special Unit' (or 'custom shop'-type production item)...came with a 'real' Burns case, which in itself is a rarity for these guitars in Oz, so I am told.... Early days...will post more info when I get some... if I can put the thing down long enough to get back on the 'Net for more searching... thanks for your interest ! Really cool! 😀 That sounds exciting! And I’m sure it provides auditory happiness too! Thank you gumbo for replying! 😀 |
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Post by unreg on Jun 18, 2021 16:16:10 GMT -5
Some folks are adamant about not anchoring, citing limitation of mobility, wrist tension, and causing damage to yourself. You should NEVER anchor. Anchoring is BAD.My take on the subject is: Recognize the benefits and drawbacks to anything you do. If something provides convenience, don't be afraid to use it. But also be aware of how it can limit you and find other ways, when those other ways are more appropriate to what you're trying to accomplish at that particular time. / 2¢ Wisdom shared. Anchoring worked for me for a short while, but after time the anchoring did hurt my wrist. Therefore, I worked on trying to play holding my hand steady and just trying to move my fingers. That works better for me! So, obviously, now you can be content to understand my semi-poor/improving? guitar skills. |
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Post by JohnH on Jun 18, 2021 17:14:27 GMT -5
Wow Sir newey, that’s sold by Chris Martin! Was an incredible concert! Where is JohnH when you need him? No.. unreg Mine is the apparently rarer Club Series 64, in black with a scroll headstock....and three-piece pickguard ...still trying to find out the history of this particular guitar; it has a serial number beginning with 'SU', which some people say on the 'Net indicates that it was a 'Special Unit' (or 'custom shop'-type production item)...came with a 'real' Burns case, which in itself is a rarity for these guitars in Oz, so I am told.... Early days...will post more info when I get some... if I can put the thing down long enough to get back on the 'Net for more searching... thanks for your interest ! Really cool! 😀 That sounds exciting! And I’m sure it provides auditory happiness too! Thank you gumbo for replying! 😀 Im right here! But I wouldn't recommend delegating the buying of that Burns to me, 'cos i might just keep it! Those Burns Steers, in their original UK non-cutaway form, were famous for being played by Billy Bragg (English folk-rocker with a message):  |
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 18, 2021 21:19:36 GMT -5
Billy Bragg (English folk-rocker with a message): I think if you’re regularly hitting a pickup wherever it is on the guitar, you must be holding the pick really funny and/or digging in way too far. I guess by default my hand goes close to the bridge ready to palm mute, but I move it around as necessary both for ergonomic and tonal reasons without putting any real thought into it nowadays. |
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Post by Yogi B on Jun 18, 2021 22:52:14 GMT -5
In a totally unrelated discussion of his recent project, guitarnerdswe mentioned that he liked the middle pickup on his Strat a bit lower to avoid hitting it with his pick. I immediately thought "Yeah, me too", I should lower that on a Strat as I am always clubbing the middle pickup. Generally I already have my pickups set pretty low, so the only real problem I've had was with my RG. Even after lowering the the middle pickup as far as physically possible it was still something like 1/4" higher than the flanking humbuckers. The problem being that the wiring channels between pickup cavities were located too high — nothing that a little chiselling couldn't solve though. When it comes to palm-muting, my favorite bridge is the Gibson wraparound. At least when you're palm-muting, it'll lessen the noticeability that the intonation of the unwound-G is off guitar, bass, whatever the side of my palm is always resting on the bridge. not always muting but always within reach. les paul also provides a nice place to hook my pinky (treble side of bridge humbucker) if i'm doing more intricate stuff on the tiny strings. i am certain my technique is lacking but meh works for me What you described is called anchoring. And that's the most contentious topic I can think of. Some folks are adamant about not anchoring, citing limitation of mobility, wrist tension, and causing damage to yourself. You should NEVER anchor. Anchoring is BAD.In my experience of people with that opinion, it's not so much that "anchoring = BAD" but "anchoring with fingers = BAD" — whereas anchoring with forearm/wrist/thumb is usually considered fine. |
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Post by thetragichero on Jun 18, 2021 23:56:36 GMT -5
At least when you're palm-muting, it'll lessen the noticeability that the intonation of the unwound-G is off love me a wound G. could be that all these years of playing bass has developed a desire to have my strings 'fight back' |
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Post by b4nj0 on Jun 19, 2021 3:21:24 GMT -5
Ah- a kindred soul!
e&oe ...
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 19, 2021 8:21:16 GMT -5
When it comes to palm-muting, my favorite bridge is the Gibson wraparound. At least when you're palm-muting, it'll lessen the noticeability that the intonation of the unwound-G is off No problem at all. Just play songs where you can let the open G ring out all the time. lol Seriously though, there are a lot of examples of Gibson 'student' models (LP Junior and Melody Maker) using that bridge. Not so good with an unwound G. There were aftermarket bridges available that were compensated for an unwound G.  I had an LP Junior with a Leo Quan 'Badass' that had adjustable saddles for all six strings. Nice that you could fine tune it for whatever string set you had. But it sacrificed just a little bit of comfort. What you described is called anchoring. And that's the most contentious topic I can think of. Some folks are adamant about not anchoring, citing limitation of mobility, wrist tension, and causing damage to yourself. You should NEVER anchor. Anchoring is BAD.In my experience of people with that opinion, it's not so much that "anchoring = BAD" but "anchoring with fingers = BAD" — whereas anchoring with forearm/wrist/thumb is usually considered fine. I've endured both types. More of the ones you described, but some who castigate you for any type of anchoring. I noticed Justin Johnson does a lot of pinky anchoring. But he switches it up at times. When fingerpicking, pinky anchoring does take the possibility of picking with the picky off the table. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 19, 2021 15:09:34 GMT -5
love me a wound G. could be that all these years of playing bass has developed a desire to have my strings 'fight back' My right hand loves strings that fight back. My left hand ... not-so-much. |
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Post by unreg on Jun 21, 2021 17:12:01 GMT -5
But I wouldn't recommend delegating the buying of that Burns to me, 'cos i might just keep it! Hmmm… it’s been sold… so either you or newey bought it!? 👍 |
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Post by newey on Jun 21, 2021 19:12:42 GMT -5
Not I, I'm still jonesin' for one. But it has to be the non-cutaway model.  But I may have to travel to Oz (or the UK) to find one, they're rarer than hen's teeth in the USA. Seems like a good excuse for a trip to the Antipodes. |
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Post by gumbo on Jun 22, 2021 3:45:26 GMT -5
Always welcome... ...I spent YEARS trying to convince sumgai to get his butt over here..all to no avail. ...even promised to clear out the kangaroo shed so he had somewhere to sleep... ...that offer still holds if you get the urge. ps.. Sorry about the cut-away...it was the best I could do at the time...  .....what was it that we were supposed to be talking about ? |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 22, 2021 15:00:55 GMT -5
.....what was it that we were supposed to be talking about ? If you have to ask, your mission is at least partially complete. If no one can answer your question ... mission accomplished.  |
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Yes, where, how, and with what you pluck the strings has as much effect as anything else. I've always picked ~1/2" in front of the middle pickup though, so it's not an issue for me. I think that's the "sweet" spot, but there's no wrong or right. Accurate note timbre control is likely less possible when there is more magnetic string pull though. Also, keep in mind that sympathetic guitar resonances can only drain string energy. They can not reinforce it unless said resonances are generated by an external force. Please excuse my clumsy wording.
