Gibson Nighthawk Wiring With Modern Superswitch

[kaustinwright]

Hey guys! Been a long time since I've posted and remembered this was the spot to come to for wiring help. 

I noticed my '96 Gibson Nighthawk didn't sound quite right, and after a quick screwdriver tap test I found the neck pickup was shorting and activating in the bridge position (position 1 tone knob down) causing a muddy tone. I ordered a new fender SuperSwitch which feels 10x better than the 25 year old switch (along with a new Seymour Duncan bridge pup), but unfortunately I have gone through 4 attempts at wiring it with no success. At this point I am tempted to just go with a standard 5 way switch with basic coil splits, but I really love the "tele" position of the nighthawk in position 5 (tone knob down).  



My question is can anyone translate the vintage superswitch wiring shown here from Gibson to a standard superswitch? Based on some other forums, I have also realized this diagram has the bridge and neck labels backwards. 




Here is an image I found online which has a modern switch, but it did not work at all after wiring it up twice. I noticed this also causes a floating coil rather than shorting it to ground so any other wiring suggestions are welcomed. 

 

I can post photos of the Gibson switch later to show the connections, but for some reason I cannot find any info on this switch anywhere! As you can see in the Gibson wiring, it also has 2 lugs paired together at the top rather than the 1 common on the modern one. I cant thank you guys enough, I am about to go bald from pulling my hair out on this one.


Also, on a side note I have always found "the tone knob down" layout to be quite confusing and was curious if anyone could work their magic to swap the pickup layout to the below configuration leaving the "tone knob up" position as-is. This is more intuitive in my opinion with positions 1, 3 and 5 being the full humbuckers and the 2 and 4 positions being the "in between" sounds. I would be perfectly fine with the original Nighthawk configuration, but figured I would throw it out there as my ideal situation. Thanks again for the help!




 

[newey]

Aug 19, 2021 14:48:45 GMT -5 kaustinwright said:

Here is an image I found online which has a modern switch, but it did not work at all after wiring it up twice.

When you say "it did not work at all", do you mean you got no sound whatsoever in any switch positions?

The modern diagram will need a through checking, I'm at work and can't do it now. At first glance, I think I see some issues, but I doubt those would cause no output at all. The diagram uses pickups with different wire colors than the Gibson (and different from your new SD pickup as well)- did you translate the colors to your pickups?

As for the original switch, I've never seen one like that. If you have it disconnected at present, you could do us all a favor by posting the details of it- some photos to show it and then the switch logic- use a multimeter to see "what connects to what" in the various switch positions and post your results for the future reference of the next guy who comes around asking about this oddball switch.

As for re-ordering the switch positions, I agree your way is more logical, that's the way I'd want it. I suspect it can be done but first let's evaluate the diagram you have- if it has problems then a redo is in order anyway and we can take a look at reordering the positions.

[kaustinwright]

Thanks so much for the quick response!

Sorry, I should have been more clear. It had sound in all positions except the middle, but regardless was all over the place with the wrong pickups selected in most positions as well as the coil split not working on the bridge at all. I started from scratch and sure enough it still didnt work. There were too many issues to take note so I just scrapped that diagram. I then decided to translate the below schematic to modern superswitch as well as I could, and this was successful in the "tone knob up" position but when it was down, I must have messed something up in translation. This may help you: 




I did translate the wiring to the correct colors (white/green series link and red hot for Gibson & white/red series link with black hot for the new SD pickup- other wires tied to ground) 

I would be happy to measure continuity and show photos, but I fear my original issue was caused by a faulty switch, but I will do my best. 

Thanks again for all of your help!

[kaustinwright]

I went ahead and layed out the switch based on what I got from the multimeter. There seemed to be a few loose connections but I got it labeled. It looks like the issue is they ran out of space on the last lug and decided to pop #5 right next to the common. Here are the photos and quick diagrams I made. 

[newey]

OK, as for Gibson's schematic, there was a portion that was somewhat difficult to tell if a connection was intended for the middle pickup "+" wire. I assumed that the diagram was intended to show those connections thusly:



The mid + is pretty clearly not connected to lug #5 of the second switch pole from the left, but is connected to lug 4 above it- although it's somewhat hard to see the wire "turn" towards the #4 lug.

If those assumptions are true (and, if they aren't, the thing is all screwed up!), then the schematic correctly tracks the diagram of the active coils that you showed in your first post- except at position #4 with the DPDT switch down. The "active coils legend" shows that position to be Bridge HB + middle; the schematic at that position selects the Neck HB + middle.

Since Position #5, with the switch down, is the neck S coil + middle, the schematic having the #4, switcvh down as N HB + middle makes more sense than what their coil diagram shows, so I suspect that the schematic shows the intended wiring, and the error is a misprint in the "acive coils legend".

As for your "wish list" of positions, let me take a lot at that over the weekend, I'll see if I can work that out. Also, Position #5 with the DPDT down will select both S coils; it maybe be possible to arrange things so as to select one N and one S coil at that position, so as to be hum-cancelling.

[Yogi B]

Aug 19, 2021 15:54:33 GMT -5 newey said:

As for the original switch, I've never seen one like that.

It's the same as the old version of DiMarzio's EP1112 switch. This can be seen in the lower left of the second page of an archived copy of their old hardware catalogue PDF. (Also, the Sweetwater product listing of that switch, despite having photographs of the current version with the more familiar layout, lower down has a drawing of a previous version.)

The intrinsic difference between the 'old' and 'new' versions appears to be the notch spacing. The wafers of the early versions have space for a total of 20 slots (18 + 2 where the rivets are), so a 360° / 20 = 18° difference between positions. The newer versions have a total of 24 slots (22 plus 2 for the rivets once more), so 360° / 24 = 15° between positions. Thus as, apart from the flattened off upper edge, the wafers are symmetrical the old style has only 9 slots either side of the rivets — not enough for ten terminals, two sets of five throws. Whereas the new style has 11 slots each side.

Aug 19, 2021 21:38:03 GMT -5 newey said:

If those assumptions are true, then the schematic correctly tracks the diagram of the active coils that you showed in your first post- except at position #4 with the DPDT switch down. The "active coils legend" shows that position to be Bridge HB + middle; the schematic at that position selects the Neck HB + middle.

I disagree with your exception, to me the legend looks to correspond to the schematic perfectly.

As for your "wish list" of positions, let me take a lot at that over the weekend, I'll see if I can work that out.

Rearranging the positions shouldn't be a problem, the two pairs of the superswitch's poles don't connect anything together unless selected by the push-pull — therefore the two 'halves' of the superswitch wiring are independent from each other, thus the ordering of either can be altered without affecting the other.

Also, Position #5 with the DPDT down will select both S coils; it maybe be possible to arrange things so as to select one N and one S coil at that position, so as to be hum-cancelling.

I'd want to do that too, but if possible make it so the neck pickup is the one which is changed — this will have the lesser impact in tone that swapping the bridge coil, and if anything the outer neck coil would be closer to correct positioning of the neck single coil on an actual Tele.

As it stands I can only figure out a version which swaps the selected bridge coil. I think the only way to swap the neck coil would be if we swapped positions 3 & 4 (with the tone knob down) i.e. had the "Tele" sound at position 3 and both unsplit humbuckers at position 4.

[kaustinwright]

The mid + is pretty clearly not connected to lug #5 of the second switch pole from the left, but is connected to lug 4 above it- although it's somewhat hard to see the wire "turn" towards the #4 lug.

Newey, you are correct, in the higher res images it is clear the middle pickup is not touching lug 5 and turning to 4.

except at position #4 with the DPDT switch down. The "active coils legend" shows that position to be Bridge HB + middle; the schematic at that position selects the Neck HB + middle

I dont see where you're seeing the 4th position (switch down) as N HB + Mid on the schematic. I have highlighted the connections and they lead to the B HB (labeled treble) and the Mid in that position.

As it stands I can only figure out a version which swaps the selected bridge coil. I think the only way to swap the neck coil would be if we swapped positions 3 & 4 (with the tone knob down) i.e. had the "Tele" sound at position 3 and both unsplit humbuckers at position 4.

And Yogi B, I really appreciate your input and locating that rogue switch! Unfortunately, I feel your proposed layout is is less intuitive than the original, as when I'm on stage I would love to just slam the switch in either direction to get neck and bridge. The Tele tone just feels right as an "In between" tone on pos# 4. Same with the B HB+Mid on pos #2. I can't wait to see if newey or anyone has any other ideas to swap the lugs to fit the "ideal layout" as (like you mentioned) everything I've tried doesn't work on paper. 

I think as a resource for Nighthawk owners I will create a master diagram translating the Dimarzio EP1112 to a modern superswitch, in the nighthawk cavity, while also correcting the pickup labels on the gibson schematic. I'll work on it today and will post for review. 

Thanks again to everyone for the help!

[newey]

Aug 20, 2021 5:47:16 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

to me the legend looks to correspond to the schematic perfectly.

You are correct, my mistake.

[kaustinwright]

Here is a couple diagrams I made showing what I believe is the correct wiring for a modern and vintage superswitch using Gibson color codes. Can you guys review and make sure I didnt make any mistakes?




While I was at it, I decided to try my "Ideal Wiring" Configuration with the modern switch. If you guys could also double check this one for me that would be great. The only thing I think might be an issue is the hum cancelling in the tele position. 

[newey]

The first diagram, "Modern SS", checks out fine by me. The second diagram (now that we have ascertained that the only difference in the 2 switches is the odd lug spacing) also checks out, it's the same as the first one.

I haven't checked the diagram of your modifications yet, but I will do so. For future reference, however, it is helpful if diagrams are accompanied by a "truth table" showing the intended combinations (like your layout of the active coils, or in tabular form, either way). As it is, to check your diagrams, one has to continually scroll up to see the chart of what you want, then scroll down to the diagram, then back, etc.

[unreg]

Aug 20, 2021 14:43:02 GMT -5 newey said:

As it is, to check your diagrams, one has to continually scroll up to see the chart of what you want, then scroll down to the diagram, then back, etc.

Truth table would surely help those like newey who are equipped to troubleshoot. Though, in many situations without a “Truth table”: It seems helpful to:

1.) duplicate the page in a new tab; or open a linked helpful image in a new tab
2.) if you duplicated page, scroll to helpful truth image in tab 2
3.) Then, at least in iPhone’s FireFox, you can view open tabs by tapping the [2] at the bottom of the app, and then easily see the truth image displayed in the other tab
4.) if you position tab 1 on the second much lower image, then it may be possible to easily view each image while looking at the open tabs.
5.) you could even write a post in a third tab at the same time. Tabs are cool! 👍😀

Note: in iPhone’s FireFox, the icons at the bottom reappear once the current page is scrolled up a bit.


Note EDIT: hmm… well, only after a quick scroll up do the lower icons reappear in iPhone’s FireFox. Guess that’s bc quick scrolls up mean the user wants to leave. Though, you can trick the browser… just perform a quick scroll and then instantly repress the screen to stop the scrolling; that way the icons appear and you are where you want to be. 😊

[kaustinwright]

Will do! I can update them shortly.

I did want to make sure it was clear, on the vintage switch lug 5 is moved I'm between lugs 1 and 2. It is not just a matter of spacing. Any info on the humbucking properties and the issue of the floating coil not shorting to ground would be much appreciated 

[newey]

Your revised diagram checks out OK, with the proviso that you have shown the Gibson wire colors for both HBs. You will need to translate those for your SD HB. Also, no hum-cancelling at position #4 with the switch down. Yogi B said he had an idea for that, but I haven't been able to work it out

[Yogi B]

Aug 22, 2021 19:22:55 GMT -5 newey said:

Also, no hum-cancelling at position #4 with the switch down. Yogi B said he had an idea for that, but I haven't been able to work it out

I was holding out — wishing for a stroke of inspiration for how to do it the way I'd prefer, as mentioned previously: not only hum-cancelling, but while selecting the 'right' coils too. Alas, I can't see it — but seeing my approach how to achieve hum-cancelling at all might be enough to spark the ideas of someone else:

---

Something I realised is that in any event it would probably make sense to physically rotate the neck pickup 180°, assuming it's a unmarked firebird-esque pickup with no visible poles (that I'd expect of a Nighthawk's neck humbucker) and the pickup cavity & lead length are co-operative. Thus the coil split to neck south would therefore be the outer coil, rather than the inner coil as at present.

Unfortunately for the bridge pickup it'd be a bit more involved since you probably don't want that to appear visibly 'backwards', so flipping the magnet would be required instead. Additionally while this would 'fix' the position 4 "Tele" setting, it would also simultaneously 'break' the "Strat" positions 1 & 2. Position 1, with the split bridge alone, could theoretically be altered to split to what would now be the north outer coil (though, I cannot see a way of doing this) — but for hum-cancellation in position 2, with the bridge split & middle, the bridge would still need to be split to the south (now inner) coil.

[newey]

Great work, Yogi B! A light bulb went off in my brain when I saw that you had freed the pole for the middle pickup from the DPDT, I didn't "see" that when I was working with trying to split to the opposite bridge coil.

Additionally while this would 'fix' the position 4 "Tele" setting, it would also simultaneously 'break' the "Strat" positions 1 & 2. Position 1, with the split bridge alone, could theoretically be altered to split to what would now be the north outer coil (though, I cannot see a way of doing this) — but for hum-cancellation in position 2, with the bridge split & middle, the bridge would still need to be split to the south (now inner) coil.

I couldn't see any way to do this without screwing up hum-cancellation with the middle pickup either. We'd need another pole on the DPDT (which would mean a 4P switch, not a P/P pot).

[kaustinwright]

Yogi B Thanks for taking the time to put that together! Unfortunately I am a bit of a wiring novice so trying to work out where everything is in that diagram is throwing me for a loop! I sat down and translated it to one of my "diagrams for dummies"   I went over it twice and it seems to be making all of the right connections but would love if someone could double check and offer any improvements. Apologies in advance for the rat nest!

I couldn't see any way to do this without screwing up hum-cancellation with the middle pickup either. We'd need another pole on the DPDT (which would mean a 4P switch, not a P/P pot).

newey I actually use a standard DPDT mini switch where a the tone pot was, so I would not be opposed to putting in a 4PDT switch if it will make it hum cancelling (or any other switch for that matter). I have no idea how that would be wired though, I would love to see your thoughts and whether or not this would also require Yogi B 's suggestion of flipping the mini neck humbucker around. 



Thanks again

[Yogi B]

Aug 23, 2021 14:31:53 GMT -5 kaustinwright said:

Yogi B Thanks for taking the time to put that together! Unfortunately I am a bit of a wiring novice so trying to work out where everything is in that diagram is throwing me for a loop! I sat down and translated it to one of my "diagrams for dummies" I went over it twice and it seems to be making all of the right connections but would love if someone could double check and offer any improvements. Apologies in advance for the rat nest!

The connections check out fine by me too, but since you did ask for improvements: technically there's disparity between the table's labels of up & down and the way we usually think about those directions with a physical toggle switch, from perspective of the toggle lever. i.e. The lever pointing upwards, towards the top of the page, connects the commons of the DPDT to the lower terminals and thus corresponds to down in the table.

I would not be opposed to putting in a 4PDT switch if it will make it hum cancelling (or any other switch for that matter).
...
I have no idea how that would be wired though, I would love to see your thoughts and whether or not this would also require Yogi B's suggestion of flipping the mini neck humbucker around.

At this point, 'upgrading' to a 4PDT isn't so much as make hum cancelling possible, but to offer different alternatives of which coils are selected when hum cancelling. The way I presented is possibly the only feasible wiring with only a DPDT that makes the Tele position hum cancelling while maintaining the selections in other positions (at least, when avoiding having a pickup permanently hanging from hot). With a 4PDT there should be more options — not only for a different choice of selected coils, but hopefully ways to completely avoid coils hanging from hot.

Flipping the neck pickup isn't really about hum-cancelling, it's about the location of the selected split coil when wired a certain way, this idea is explored further below. Additionally, the same is true of my comment about flipping the bridge pickup's magnet (after appropriate adjustments are made to the wiring). It's more of a question about where the coils are that would provide hum cancelling, than whether they're hum cancelling.

---

Aug 23, 2021 5:44:54 GMT -5 newey said:

Additionally while this would 'fix' the position 4 "Tele" setting, it would also simultaneously 'break' the "Strat" positions 1 & 2. Position 1, with the split bridge alone, could theoretically be altered to split to what would now be the north outer coil (though, I cannot see a way of doing this) — but for hum-cancellation in position 2, with the bridge split & middle, the bridge would still need to be split to the south (now inner) coil.

I couldn't see any way to do this without screwing up hum-cancellation with the middle pickup either. We'd need another pole on the DPDT (which would mean a 4P switch, not a P/P pot).

Again, in the above, I'm not really talking about "screwing up hum-cancellation" but rather screwing up positioning.

---

The route of the problem of which coils to pick is a consequence of what I call the "Nashville Tele Problem", which is related to, but distinct from specifically what Tyler Delsack (writing for Lindy Fralin) calls by the same name. Tyler's "Real Solution" assumes that using Strat switching an acceptable answer, and thus the three pickups would have the same polarities as found on a typical Strat. Meaning that B+M and M+N are hum-cancelling, whereas B+N doesn't need to be considered. The actual "real solution" to the problem is compromise, because with standard single coils there isn't a perfect answer: there's no way to have all three of B+M, B+N, and M+N both in phase & hum-cancelling. If you have all three selections then one of them must either have the selected coils out of phase, or not cancel hum.

With a HSH guitar such as your Nighthawk, you have a third option: compromise on position.

Compromise #2 is what the DPDT version gives (when the neck pickup is rotated 180).

With a 4PDT the three other options should additionally be possible (while also always splitting to the humbuckers' outer coils).

With a Typical HSH guitar, with a non-slanted bridge pickup, it's easier to care less about the choice of the bridge coil because the 'correct' position is slanted across both. However with the Nighthawk where the outer coil of the bridge is more-or-less exactly in the correct place it makes it difficult to choose otherwise.

All this of course assumes that you want Tele and Strat equivalent selections to be as physically close to the these positions as found on those actual guitars. There's nothing to say that you wouldn't actually prefer the sound when using the coils which are placed differently.

[kaustinwright]

Aug 24, 2021 8:14:14 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

The connections check out fine by me too, but since you did ask for improvements: technically there's disparity between the table's labels of up & down and the way we usually think about those directions with a physical toggle switch, from perspective of the toggle lever. i.e. The lever pointing upwards, towards the top of the page, connects the commons of the DPDT to the lower terminals and thus corresponds to down in the table.

Awesome! Thanks so much, Ill correct that on the install and just spin the switch around. 

With a 4PDT there should be more options — not only for a different choice of selected coils, but hopefully ways to completely avoid coils hanging from hot.

I would love to see that option with the "compromise 3" layout if anyone has some time to lay them out in a quick schematic/diagram (also if possible, avoiding the coils hanging from hot). I think compromise #3 would require a 4PDT if I'm not mistaken so I'll go ahead and get one ordered! I wish I could be more help, but I'm still having trouble really understanding your original schematic, although I have no doubts it will work like a champ!

With a Typical HSH guitar, with a non-slanted bridge pickup, it's easier to care less about the choice of the bridge coil because the 'correct' position is slanted across both. However with the Nighthawk where the outer coil of the bridge is more-or-less exactly in the correct place it makes it difficult to choose otherwise.

You're exactly right, I do prefer to keep the bridge outer coil as much as possible as it adds an extra twang and brightness I really enjoy. The neck is less important to me which is why compromise #3 looks to be the most appealing, but I am still unclear on if this would require rotating the neck or if it would be fine as-is.


I wish I could repay you guys for the amount of time and effort you put in to helping me, and just wanted to say thanks again . I am trying to wrap my head around this all and it is definitely making my head spin a bit so I apologize in advance for any ignorance I may have toward the subject. I've read everyone's posts about 10 times each and picking up new info each time. Just so many things happening at once in the diagrams not to mention polarity, winding direction, phase etc. 

[newey]

Aug 24, 2021 10:21:27 GMT -5 kaustinwright said:

The neck is less important to me which is why compromise #3 looks to be the most appealing, but I am still unclear on if this would require rotating the neck or if it would be fine as-is.

Yogi's DPDT version discussed rotating the neck pickup such that the South coil was closest to the neck, as when both B and N are split, you get both outer coils (and one N and one S) for hum-cancelling. If you don't really care about the coil position at the neck, rotating the pickup is not "required", the scheme will still work just fine, and N and B will be hum-cancelling. The neck coil, when split, will just be the inner one instead.

However, all this assumes something that we haven't, as yet, discussed. We've been discussing this based on Gibson pickups, and which coil is N versus S for Gibson. But you are replacing the bridge pickup with a SD, which may or may not have the N and S coils in the same positions as the Gibson pickups. They may well be the same, but this is something that probably should be checked. Note that, even if you see a SD diagram that shows the N and S coils in the same physical positions as the Gibson (with the Bridge S coil closest to the bridge), there is no guarantee that SD designates N and S the same way.

[kaustinwright]

Aug 24, 2021 11:17:21 GMT -5 newey said:

They may well be the same, but this is something that probably should be checked

I will have to check on this later on this evening with a compass.


After spending some time with Yogi B 's schematic I see how it works a bit better now and it blows my mind how you guys can figure this stuff out! I had to sit there for a couple hours tracing the leads in each position to even visualize it.

I am still pondering ideas on how to eliminate the floating coils with the below configuration (which I believe is the full diagram with the "compromise #3" that Yogi B suggested).  

[unreg]

Aug 24, 2021 15:49:05 GMT -5 kaustinwright said:

and it blows my mind how you guys can figure this stuff out! I had to sit there for a couple hours tracing the leads in each position to even visualize

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/4815/kikta-christopher-aka-chrisk

(check ChrisK’s posting history link, in that thread, to experience his brilliance. In short, he knew so much, was exceptional, and taught a lot of things to many people. Many of today’s forum brains are a result of his former presence. I never met/knew him, but his old posts, a few I browsed through, led me to ask my questions here.)

[kaustinwright]

Thanks for the info unreg

With assistance from the Seymour Duncan forums, did find a diagram that claims to solve the floating coil issue. Credit to MikeS and Jack_TriPpEr over there.

(From SD Forum) Originally posted by MikeS

Push/Pull (bottom 4 contacts in diagram engaged)

1. Bridge Split

2. Bridge Split & Middle

3. Middle

4. Neck Split & Middle

5. Neck Split



Push/Pull (top 4 contacts in diagram engaged)

1. Bridge Humbucker

2. Bridge Humbucker & Middle

3. Bridge Humbucker & Neck Humbucker

4. Neck Humbucker & Middle

5. Neck Humbucker 

forum.seymourduncan.com/forum/the-pickup-lounge/338027-wiring-suggestions-help#post5747470


Based on this diagram it looks like the only thing missing is the position 4 (switch down), and swapping which coil is split on the bridge. If I'm not mistaken it looks like it's the inside coil that's active rather than the preferred outside.

[newey]

Aug 25, 2021 7:43:15 GMT -5 kaustinwright said:

did find a diagram that claims to solve the floating coil issue.

Not sure what you mean by "floating coil issue". If you mean a coil "hanging from hot", as we term it around here, none of the diagrams we have been discussing in this thread have any hanging coils. If you mean a coil connected to ground but disconnected on the hot side, that's not an issue to be concerned about.

If I'm not mistaken it looks like it's the inside coil that's active rather than the preferred outside.

Yes, YogiB's diagram solves that.

[unreg]

Aug 25, 2021 7:43:15 GMT -5 kaustinwright said:

Thanks for the info unreg

You’re welcome! Happy to be helpful.

[kaustinwright]

Aug 25, 2021 10:19:29 GMT -5 newey said:

Aug 25, 2021 7:43:15 GMT -5 kaustinwright said:

did find a diagram that claims to solve the floating coil issue.

Not sure what you mean by "floating coil issue". If you mean a coil "hanging from hot", as we term it around here, none of the diagrams we have been discussing in this thread have any hanging coils. If you mean a coil connected to ground but disconnected on the hot side, that's not an issue to be concerned about.

If I'm not mistaken it looks like it's the inside coil that's active rather than the preferred outside.

Yes, YogiB's diagram solves that.

I see now, sorry I was misunderstanding a bit earlier with my head spinning from it all. Just to confirm though, is there no way to have position 4 in Yogi B 's diagram the bridge and Nick's outside coils?

[newey]

Just to confirm though, is there no way to have position 4 in Yogi B 's diagram the bridge and Nick's outside coils?

As we said earlier, check the polarity of the coils for both pickups, as the SD may vary from the Gibson. Depending on the results, you may not need to do anything. Or, you may need to rotate one or the other pickup, as suggested. This is just a matter of positioning, not electricity.

[kaustinwright]

Just confirmed the SD and Gibson bridge pickup have the same polarity, south being the outside coil.

My last post was more geared toward the position, as the tele sound I love from the Nighthawk has the south coil of the bridge engaged. This is my most commonly used position other than the full bridge so I would love to retain that tone if at all possible (like Yogi B 's compromise #3)

[Yogi B]

Aug 25, 2021 10:19:29 GMT -5 newey said:

Not sure what you mean by "floating coil issue". If you mean a coil "hanging from hot", as we term it around here, none of the diagrams we have been discussing in this thread have any hanging coils.

Yes they do. They may not be permanent, in that no coil has a hard-wired path to hot & is turned on by connecting the other lead to ground, but there are coils hanging from hot.

These occur is with the split humbuckers: within these diagrams the HBs are, in most cases, being split by connecting the output to the series link (rather than the 'hot' lead as when unsplit). This means both coils of the humbucker are connected to hot: the other end of one coil is connected to ground and is thus this is the selected coil that we hear; the end of the other coil is floating and thus is 'hanging from hot'.

kaustinwright: a truly "floating coil" would imply that neither end was connected to anything (except maybe the other end of the same coil).

---

Even with a 4PDT it's proving tricky to completely avoid either hanging coils or having coils shunted to hot (both ends of the coil connected to hot, which may be better/equivalent/worse to a coil hanging from hot — I don't think a conclusive answer was ever reached).

I think the best I can come up with (with Compromise #3 switching) has the neck inner coil hanging from hot when split in position 5. (Also, in positions 1, 2 & 4, the bridge inner coil is shunted to ground but that should be of little concern.)

[kaustinwright]

Aug 26, 2021 9:04:44 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

kaustinwright: a truly "floating coil" would imply that neither end was connected to anything (except maybe the other end of the same coil).

Ah! Apologies for using the incorrect terminology, but it makes much more sense now. 

I think the best I can come up with (with Compromise #3 switching) has the neck inner coil hanging from hot when split in position 5

Gotcha, well I believe that would still be an improvement. I use the split bridge position all the time so if I have to choose between the lesser of evils I think that's the ticket. 

Aug 24, 2021 8:14:14 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

With a HSH guitar such as your Nighthawk, you have a third option: compromise on position.

If it helps, I would also not be opposed to the "compromise 4" Switching as I rarely use position 4 with the p/p up (middle + neck split) and honestly am not in love with that tone at the moment 

[Yogi B]

Aug 26, 2021 10:00:34 GMT -5 kaustinwright said:

If it helps, I would also not be opposed to the "compromise 4" Switching as I rarely use position 4 with the p/p up (middle + neck split) and honestly am not in love with that tone at the moment

There's not much difference between the two: the real difference between #3 and #4 is which way the neck is split in position 5 — the difference in position 4 is attained by rotating the neck pickup.

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I've managed to refine what I previously thought was my "best" attempt, now there's no coils hanging from hot and only one position where a coil is shunted to ground. The below diagram requires the neck pickup to be rotated and should implement "compromise #3".

As the schematic is sufficiently complex and it's unlikely that I'll manage to better it, I'll probably draw up my own version of this as wiring diagram — that is unless you beat me to it.