Idea: Telecaster Tone and Blend all in one! Possible or not?

[thedirestrat]

gckelloch,

I'd like some pickup advice from you. I was going for this: thicker magnets (0.195", which exist and Rob can supply them) Alnico 5's in the neck position. 43 AWG, Tapped, 8500 turns, 10500 turns. Thicker magnets 0.195" in the bridge, Alnico 5's for lower, Alnico 3's for higher strings. 42 AWG, a triple hydra based on his models: Bakersfield ~8500 turns, for a vintage low output twang (maybe I'd ask him for a little bit lower winds to ensure this), Nashville 10000 turns, for a broadcaster like thicker twang (favourite sound), and Humongous 16000 turns for a Humbucker/p90 like sound.  The idea is: low twang setting, broadcaster glory twang setting, and midrange "boost" in another setting.

I thought of the higher diameter magnets because of this video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1xe9wlQQw0

I love this tone, and he explains that the old broadcasters had these thicker magnets which offered a "juicier tone". He made it seem like the higher diameter magnets made a difference (big or small, not specified). 

Rob's wisdom:

"There is no advantage to .195 magnets as opposed to .187s. If anything, the coil will be a narrower advantage with .187s, where "thinner" coils are less susceptible to RF humbuzz. IOW, if I saw and heard a clear advantage to .195s, that would be all I'd use.

I recommend A5 magnets for covered neck pickups - A5s will automatically have reduced magnetism due to the ground shield cover.

Mixing magnet Gauss rates (magnetic strength) will be a crap shoot guess because of the Gauss rate differences, where A5s are about 1150-1200 and A3s are 650-700. If you think you know what to expect, and you want less output on some strings and more output on others, then a mix of A5 and A3 might be a good thing ... else, you're gambling on the outcome. I don't recommend mixing magnet strengths unless you want to pioneer and see/hear the results."



Awesome stuff. I may just get the .195 just for the look (in a previous post he said he can easily use .195's) unless gckelloch have something else to add about wider mags? 

He says it may be hard to balance string volume with the mixed magnets... That's a good point, but with my Strat, I have A5's AND A3's in one pickup (Well at least there should be!) And I don't have those problems.


What do you recommend? Keep this set up, or instead do something closer to the Fender video:

Bridge pickup: low amount of turns of 43 AWG (around 6000 turns) for the first "setting, then the "Nocaster Holy Grail" on Rob's site which should capture that awesome Broadcaster sound, and has the same specs as the video, and last setting, as much 43 AWG he can put in for that "midrange" stuff. I think the max he can put is 13000, which is around 13 k so that sounds more than enough! A5 mags for the neck (the video, in the neck, he got A5's and they seem to pair well with the bridge), and A3's for the bridge all across (no uneven string balance here, well not a lot at least, and it's AlNiCo 3, which you told me the benefits of these in the bridge in previous posts). .195" diameter, unless you have anything against them.

Last thing: Where can I learn about pickup "science". Permeability, coercivity, etc.? Any books in mind? Just a regular E&M class, which I'm taking now? An electromagnet master's degree XD?

Thanks for everything once again )

[gckelloch]

First, I should say that I don’t know enough about pickups to determine how a given coil dimension will sound with a given wire gauge & insulation thickness, wind pattern or tension. I only know some general things about magnets, core alloys, and that thinner wire coils can be more efficient if more of the coil is closer to the strings, as well as having more consistent impedance throughout the freq range. I assume that with all other factors being equal, the Q-factor is lower and the high end extended compared to a coil with thicker wire measuring the same inductance.

I can’t imagine the slightly thicker poles would make much difference. The field should be just slightly stronger and less focused at the same pole length, but the thinner coil should also be less efficient because less of the wire will be closer to the strings. I’d think the result would be weaker note fundamentals = a slightly thinner/brighter note timber. That can be better for the neck pos. I’d think it’d make less difference on the bridge pickup because the coil is that much thicker, but I guess you might as well have it on both if at all so the bridge pickup isn’t possibly slightly lower output, but that is pure speculation on my part.

I’m not sure what Rob means by a thinner coil being less susceptible to RFI. AFAIK, HI-Z pickups (like these) don’t capture signals in the radio bandwidth, but pickups with thinner wire coils up closer to the strings and/or higher permeable cores will have a better signal to EMI ratio. Therefore, the higher permeability of A3 on the treble strings should counter some of the signal loss from the lower Gauss. Angling the pickup can do the rest. I see no reason why it wouldn’t work the same with a Tele neck pickup as your Strat pickup, assuming the pickup cover doesn’t really foul things up.

I hadn’t thought much about the effect the neck pickup cover would have on the Gauss level, but it depends on the alloy. Brass will damp the resonance peak and roll off the high end a lot, but I’m not sure it will significantly affect the Gauss of the stronger/lower freq string vibrations. AFAIK, the opposing field diamagnetic alloys create is not very strong compared to the field coming from the magnets, so it can only cancel so much. In either case, I’d go with a Ni or plastic cover. Ni is paramagnetic and will just slightly damp the resonance peak. I also don’t see how it would significantly affect the field strength from the poles or strings. However, a Steel cover would draw some of the flux lines from the poles down away from the strings. That would strongly affect what goes to and comes back from the strings. FI, the Steel shielding on the sides of Lace Sensor pickups draws enough of the outer flux lines down so the pickups have to be up closer to the strings to make up for it. That reduces the dynamic linearity of the neck pickup from the lower to higher frets.

I can’t say how many turns and the inductance level you’ll want on a pickup any more than I can say what flavor of ice cream you’ll like. I will say that I don’t see the logic in using 42AWG on the bridge pickup when that’s where the note fundamentals are the weakest. If anything, the thicker wire should be on the neck pickup, but 43AWG is used there simply so more of it can wound on the thinner coil to increase efficiency. At this point, I prefer much thinner wire coils with shorter bobbins to get more of the total winds closer to the strings, along with adjustable high permeable pole screws that don’t roll off the high end to allow adjusting the note timber/output per string and pickup position. I can’t advise on what to get from Mr. Stefano. He should know much better about the effects of his design parameters.

There are several good places to learn the facts about guitar pickups. I’d check out Dr Scott Lawing’s blog first. That’s where I only recently learned about the effect of permeability. Not sure what else you’d really need to know, but the late Bill Lawrence (Willi L Stitch) covered everything many years ago on his site. That’s where I learned his “Q-filter” has virtually the same effect as reducing the winds/inductance of a pickup.

P.S. If you really want to drive Rob crazy, you could ask for thick A3 poles and thin A5 poles in each pickup. That might balance the output better from the low to high strings. Notice that the Tele in the video had a 10k resistor in front of the neck pickup to balance it with the bridge pickup when combined.

[thedirestrat]

Dear Gckelloch,

Thank you so much for all that information! I will definitely refer to Bill Lawrence's and Scott Lawing's pickup posts for research! This will greatly help me understand how electric guitars work, and therefore, will be of use of me for my independent study project. 

I believe I'm going with this now:

PICKUPS:

Neck: Twin Lion (single tap): Fat Lion King and Lion King, chrome, nickel silver, as he offers, cover (going with chrome hardware now).
AlNiCo 5 magnets, 0.195" diameter if Rob can offer it (looks like it barely makes a difference, but hey, the Fender 70th anniversary had them, the original had them, so why not if Rob has them readily available!)
Independent start and finish leads for each of the two coils (like a 4 conductor Humbucker)
Question: How do I ground neck cover? Is it already grounded in your wiring @yogi B?

Bridge: Double Tap: 51, Nocaster Holy Grail, and max out (I think it's called Nocaster Imperial) Lions. 43 AWG wire, AlNiCo 3's, 0.195" diameter for the same reason as above.
Normal start and finish leads (nothing special to request for these).
I think 43/A3 is the best combo for me. All those great things of A3 mags what you said Gckelloch (permeability, and letting the strings ring out, less dampening) apply, it's what the originals had, and should bring me closer to Fender's Video. However, I think most of the tone does come from the amp in that video! (I think it's a Fender 5e3 deluxe).



"Oct 3, 2021 22:26:42 GMT -4 gckelloch said:
P.S. If you really want to drive Rob crazy, you could ask for thick A3 poles and thin A5 poles in each pickup. That might balance the output better from the low to high strings. Notice that the Tele in the video had a 10k resistor in front of the neck pickup to balance it with the bridge pickup when combined."

No more mixing and matching for me! And I think Yogi added a resistor to the neck pickup, so that should be covered too!

[thedirestrat]

This is what Rob said about the independent leads for the neck pickup:

"Yes, I can create two independent coils around a singular bobbin. They would NOT be "stacked", they would be "layered" in that the second coil overlays on top of the first coil. The first coil would be the Lion King (8500 turns) and second would be the Fat Lion King (10500 turns). There would be dual start/finish leads for each coil. Both the work and cost would increase for this special pickup."

Man, Rob is awesome! I'm really happy that this can be done. Yogi, please tell me if this lines up to what you were thinking of. I think this sums it up for the pickups. My last post has all the specs of the pickups, and this one explains the unique wiring of the neck pickup.    

[Yogi B]

Oct 3, 2021 16:34:08 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

Sept 30, 2021 1:19:26 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

The coil wires are black, white, yellow, and red; whereas, the green wire is connected to a solder lug washer placed around a mounting screw.

So is this "good" for the setup? I don't have to ask Rob anything special for the bridge pickup wiring? I just get it as he usually does it?

Yes.

Also Yogi, I'd like to know a bit more about the loading resistor. This resistor will only have effect when the tone knob is pulled up right? So, for example, position middle (both pickups), when the tone knob is down, the neck and bridge pickups should not have a loading resistor on them correct?

Correct.

Now what does this resistor actually contribute to the circuit? Does it make the neck blend in with less volume, like the old Broadcaster wiring? Does it act like a capacitor where it just darkens the tone a little bit?

It will darken the tone somewhat, though the effect is different from that of a capacitor. I can best explain it visually:

Above is a guesstimate of the electrical frequency response in a few scenarios: red is the output of the bridge pickup when loaded with both the volume & tone pots (at '10'); blue is the output of the bridge and neck in parallel loaded with the volume pot and either the tone pot or the loading resistor; yellow is again bridge and neck in parallel, but loaded with just the volume pot; finally, just to demonstrate the difference, in dark purple is the effect of adding a small capacitor (specifically 1nF) in parallel with the output of yellow.

(All four also include 500pF of cable capacitance and typical 1 Megohm input impedance.)

In other words, blue is the output you have in position 2 when the blend/tone pot is acting as a tone control turned to '10'; pulling up, converting to blend, and rolling it all the way down (to fully blend in the neck) would ordinarily give the output represented by yellow, but adding the resistor makes it give the same output as blue.

And finally, why 249 kOhms? What does the increasing/decreasing of this value do?

249k is the nearest value to the tone pot's value of 250k in the E48 (and above) series of standard component values. For an exact match between tone control on '10' and blend control on '0', this value would be identical to the exact value of the tone/blend pot, but honestly you're not going to notice any difference if you actually used a 220k or 270k resistor (including the ±10% tolerance, so an overall range of about 200k—300k).

Increasing the value would move the output closer to the yellow trace, which is equivalent to if the resistor is omitted (or its value was infinite); lowering the value will further flatten the resonant peak.

Oct 3, 2021 17:03:36 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

I thought of the higher diameter magnets because of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1xe9wlQQw0

I love this tone, and he explains that the old broadcasters had these thicker magnets which offered a "juicier tone". He made it seem like the higher diameter magnets made a difference (big or small, not specified).

I found an interview with Mike Lewis that elaborates a bit further — I've not watched the whole thing but the meat of the talk about the old broadcaster specs is near the beginning, and pickups at around the eleven minute mark. My takeaway is anywhere that there were inconsistencies Fender we free to choose whatever variation that took their fancy on the reissue — with a bias, conscious or not, towards whatever was most unusual compared to a modern Tele.

Guitars from the Esquire/Broadcaster/Nocaster era are highly prized and it's in Fender's best interests to include and hype up as many unique features on these reissues compared to any other recently constructed Telecaster, whether those differences result in a real appreciable change or not.

Last thing: Where can I learn about pickup "science". Permeability, coercivity, etc.? Any books in mind? Just a regular E&M class, which I'm taking now? An electromagnet master's degree XD?

If you haven't already found it, we do have the Pickup Testing and Modelling sub-board, for that kind of thing wherein the top stickied thread has a list of resources.

Mentioned in another of antigua's posts (though the links need updating), is probably the single most comprehensive source, the Gitec book: Physics of the Electric Guitar. Of which the vast majority of the English translation is available for free as individual chapters.

Oct 3, 2021 21:26:42 GMT -5 gckelloch said:

I hadn’t thought much about the effect the neck pickup cover would have on the Gauss level, but it depends on the alloy.
...
I also don’t see how it would significantly affect the field strength from the poles or strings.

I don't really know what Rob's getting at either, perhaps it's simply a matter of how the cover mates with the neck pickup? If the polepieces don't extend far beyond the top of the bobbin and the bobbin top also isn't flush with the top of the cover; then, in order to give the increased clearance for the strings to pass over the cover, the pickup must be lowered by a not insignificant distance.

Oct 4, 2021 18:48:25 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

Question: How do I ground neck cover? Is it already grounded in your wiring @yogi B?

I've not included either pickup's shield ground in the schematic (I cannot think of a way of drawing it wouldn't be weird). The cavalier site mentions the neck cover is separately grounded (though I can't spot it in any of the photos), so it should just be a case of joining that wire with the other grounds.

Oct 4, 2021 18:48:25 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

Oct 3, 2021 21:26:42 GMT -5 gckelloch said:

P.S. If you really want to drive Rob crazy, you could ask for thick A3 poles and thin A5 poles in each pickup. That might balance the output better from the low to high strings. Notice that the Tele in the video had a 10k resistor in front of the neck pickup to balance it with the bridge pickup when combined.

No more mixing and matching for me! And I think Yogi added a resistor to the neck pickup, so that should be covered too!

The resistor I added is different, in parallel with the neck pickup (I explained its function above) — the 10k on the broadcasters was in series with the neck pickup, it originally served two purposes. Firstly it further darkened up the 'bass imitation' setting with the neck combined with the cap, secondly it reduced the maximum amount of the neck pickup that could be blended.

When in blend mode the resistance of the 250k pot is in series with the neck pickup. Turned to '10' this means the full 250k is in series, severely limiting the output of the neck pickup, effectively silencing it. Turning the knob towards '0' reduces this series resistance: without the 10k resistor, the series resistance eventually reaches (effectively) zero ohms thus the neck and bridge are fully in parallel; whereas with the 10k resistor the minimum the series resistance can ever reach is 10k, thus the neck pickup will always be a bit blended out compared to the full parallel setting. On a typical 250k log pot this is roughly equivalent to turning only ³/₄ of the way down on the blend control.

If it were just the blend control, I'd almost definitely omit it: if you don't want the full parallel setting, then don't turn the blend knob all the way down. However with the parallel combination in position 2 (when the tone knob is down) you may appreciate some resistance (maybe a 10k trimmer potentiometer, rather than a fixed value) if you find that the neck pickup dominates the mix.

Oct 4, 2021 19:43:04 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

This is what Rob said about the independent leads for the neck pickup:

"Yes, I can create two independent coils around a singular bobbin. They would NOT be "stacked", they would be "layered" in that the second coil overlays on top of the first coil. The first coil would be the Lion King (8500 turns) and second would be the Fat Lion King (10500 turns). There would be dual start/finish leads for each coil. Both the work and cost would increase for this special pickup."

Man, Rob is awesome! I'm really happy that this can be done. Yogi, please tell me if this lines up to what you were thinking of. I think this sums it up for the pickups. My last post has all the specs of the pickups, and this one explains the unique wiring of the neck pickup.

Firstly I apologise for slightly confusing matters by using the word "stacking"/"stacked" without strong qualification that I was talking about wiring rather than the physical layout of the coils.

And while I doubt Rob really thinks you're after a total of 19000 turns on the neck pickup, that is how that description reads. So, hopefully the following diagram should be sufficient to eliminate all doubt over what I'm thinking:

[thedirestrat]

Oct 5, 2021 4:00:02 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Above is a guesstimate of the electrical frequency response in a few scenarios: red is the output of the bridge pickup when loaded with both the volume & tone pots (at '10'); blue is the output of the bridge and neck in parallel loaded with the volume pot and either the tone pot or the loading resistor; yellow is again bridge and neck in parallel, but loaded with just the volume pot; finally, just to demonstrate the difference, in dark purple is the effect of adding a small capacitor (specifically 1nF) in parallel with the output of yellow.

(All four also include 500pF of cable capacitance and typical 1 Megohm input impedance.)

In other words, blue is the output you have in position 2 when the blend/tone pot is acting as a tone control turned to '10'; pulling up, converting to blend, and rolling it all the way down (to fully blend in the neck) would ordinarily give the output represented by yellow, but adding the resistor makes it give the same output as blue.

And finally, why 249 kOhms? What does the increasing/decreasing of this value do?

249k is the nearest value to the tone pot's value of 250k in the E48 (and above) series of standard component values. For an exact match between tone control on '10' and blend control on '0', this value would be identical to the exact value of the tone/blend pot, but honestly you're not going to notice any difference if you actually used a 220k or 270k resistor (including the ±10% tolerance, so an overall range of about 200k—300k).

Increasing the value would move the output closer to the yellow trace, which is equivalent to if the resistor is omitted (or its value was infinite); lowering the value will further flatten the resonant peak.

YES! I understand completely, thanks so much for that excellent and thorough explanation. I will definitely be adding the loaded resistor in, but maybe I'll take it out once just to see how it sounds. Any advice on what *type* of resistor? Metal film, carbon film, carbon comp, etc? I never bought a resistor before for guitar, so this is a first!

Oct 5, 2021 4:00:02 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

I found an interview with Mike Lewis that elaborates a bit further — I've not watched the whole thing but the meat of the talk about the old broadcaster specs is near the beginning, and pickups at around the eleven minute mark. My takeaway is anywhere that there were inconsistencies Fender we free to choose whatever variation that took their fancy on the reissue — with a bias, conscious or not, towards whatever was most unusual compared to a modern Tele.

Guitars from the Esquire/Broadcaster/Nocaster era are highly prized and it's in Fender's best interests to include and hype up as many unique features on these reissues compared to any other recently constructed Telecaster, whether those differences result in a real appreciable change or not.

That makes sense I can't see how 0.08" larger of a diameter would sound any different, or do anything for that matter. I'll read the article, this is perfect!

Oct 5, 2021 4:00:02 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

If you haven't already found it, we do have the Pickup Testing and Modelling sub-board, for that kind of thing wherein the top stickied thread has a list of resources.

Mentioned in another of antigua's posts (though the links need updating), is probably the single most comprehensive source, the Gitec book: Physics of the Electric Guitar. Of which the vast majority of the English translation is available for free as individual chapters.

MY GOD THAT BOOK! Perfect! So comprehensive, I'll definitely make great use out of that. I thank you from the bottom of my heart Yogi.

Oct 5, 2021 4:00:02 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

I've not included either pickup's shield ground in the schematic (I cannot think of a way of drawing it wouldn't be weird). The cavalier site mentions the neck cover is separately grounded (though I can't spot it in any of the photos), so it should just be a case of joining that wire with the other grounds.

Ok so I will just ground the wire coming from the metal cover.

Oct 5, 2021 4:00:02 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Oct 5, 2021 4:00:02 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Firstly I apologise for slightly confusing matters by using the word "stacking"/"stacked" without strong qualification that I was talking about wiring rather than the physical layout of the coils.

And while I doubt Rob really thinks you're after a total of 19000 turns on the neck pickup, that is how that description reads. So, hopefully the following diagram should be sufficient to eliminate all doubt over what I'm thinking:

Funny story...

"First, getting 19000 turns of 43 wire on a Tele bobbin will be the quest, it may not be doable, I shall see ....."

I will let him know about your idea. Makes sense for me, as long as it does it's part in the schematic you designed above!

Thanks for all the info and help Yogi, I seriously wouldn't be able to do this without you. I will have something pretty special because you-- both because it's a unique wiring, and because the Yogi B helped design it!

[thedirestrat]

This is what Rob said about the 2000-8500 coil picture you sent Yogi:

"The 4-wire diagram is absolutely not the way to go as it will never render a usable 8500 and 10500 separate set of turn counts that can be used in a variety of selected pickup configurations. It will only yield separate 8500 and 2000 coils. You could run the red 8500 coil by itself, then join the red finish lead to the orange start lead and create a 10500 coil, but to what advantage over the 3-wire tap? None. It will still come down to separate 8500 and 10500 coils IF you wish to select both of those coils at the same time to join them in series or parallel or flip for phasing with each other, which I think is what yer after. It is what it is."

[thedirestrat]

Rob's idea for the phase reversing:

"You can do separate coil phase reversals with a tapped pickup. The start lead of a Twin Lion King is black, the tap is white, the full coil is yellow. The full coil is no problem to phase reverse - simply flip the leads where black is the signal and yellow is the ground. The tap is also flipped in the same manner, where black is the signal and white is the ground."

Just realized that this is a problem, because of the tone push pull knob. I'll go ahead and tell him, but first, Yogi I will wait for you response, because I'm gonna cause too much yapping for nothing if I reply to him now!

[Yogi B]

Oct 5, 2021 16:37:41 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

Any advice on what *type* of resistor? Metal film, carbon film, carbon comp, etc? I never bought a resistor before for guitar, so this is a first!

Not especially, the current through it will be tiny, so really just use whatever's easiest to get. (I will mention that higher wattage resistors do also tend to have thicker leads which can be an issue fitting through some push-pull's terminals. That'd only really be a problem if you were specifically looking for higher wattage, which you shouldn't be, 1/4W is already way overkill)

Oct 5, 2021 18:12:03 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

Rob's idea for the phase reversing:

"You can do separate coil phase reversals with a tapped pickup. The start lead of a Twin Lion King is black, the tap is white, the full coil is yellow. The full coil is no problem to phase reverse - simply flip the leads where black is the signal and yellow is the ground. The tap is also flipped in the same manner, where black is the signal and white is the ground."

Just realized that this is a problem, because of the tone push pull knob. I'll go ahead and tell him, but first, Yogi I will wait for you response, because I'm gonna cause too much yapping for nothing if I reply to him now!

You're correct, with the wiring of the tone/blend it's a little more involved and flipping a cap (the tone cap) is something I'd avoid if possible.

Even without the switching, you can see how in Rob's explanation of the in-phase & tapped mode you have a section of the coil hanging from hot: with the white lead connected to hot and black to ground, the unused 2000 turns are also connected to white, thus hanging.

In Rob's defence I've always seen coil taps done this way, which now I come to think of it is a quirk that this method is shared by (AFAIK) all pickup manufactures. Perhaps it's born from a fear that the innermost lengths of coil wire might short against the poles, but if that were the case such pickups ought to carry a warning that they may be unreliable if connected reverse to their intended phase (the start wire to the output).

Really it all depends on you're commitment to avoid having coils hang from hot, at some point practicality beats peace of mind. (If we don't concern ourselves with the presence of hanging coils, flipping the phase of the bridge pickup avoids flipping the tone control — and goes back to the minimum requirement of the phase switch being only at least a DPDT.)

[thedirestrat]

Oct 7, 2021 21:51:45 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Oct 5, 2021 16:37:41 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

Any advice on what *type* of resistor? Metal film, carbon film, carbon comp, etc? I never bought a resistor before for guitar, so this is a first!

Not especially, the current through it will be tiny, so really just use whatever's easiest to get. (I will mention that higher wattage resistors do also tend to have thicker leads which can be an issue fitting through some push-pull's terminals. That'd only really be a problem if you were specifically looking for higher wattage, which you shouldn't be, 1/4W is already way overkill)

Oct 5, 2021 18:12:03 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

Rob's idea for the phase reversing:

"You can do separate coil phase reversals with a tapped pickup. The start lead of a Twin Lion King is black, the tap is white, the full coil is yellow. The full coil is no problem to phase reverse - simply flip the leads where black is the signal and yellow is the ground. The tap is also flipped in the same manner, where black is the signal and white is the ground."

Just realized that this is a problem, because of the tone push pull knob. I'll go ahead and tell him, but first, Yogi I will wait for you response, because I'm gonna cause too much yapping for nothing if I reply to him now!

You're correct, with the wiring of the tone/blend it's a little more involved and flipping a cap (the tone cap) is something I'd avoid if possible.

Even without the switching, you can see how in Rob's explanation of the in-phase & tapped mode you have a section of the coil hanging from hot: with the white lead connected to hot and black to ground, the unused 2000 turns are also connected to white, thus hanging.

In Rob's defence I've always seen coil taps done this way, which now I come to think of it is a quirk that this method is shared by (AFAIK) all pickup manufactures. Perhaps it's born from a fear that the innermost lengths of coil wire might short against the poles, but if that were the case such pickups ought to carry a warning that they may be unreliable if connected reverse to their intended phase (the start wire to the output).

Really it all depends on you're commitment to avoid having coils hang from hot, at some point practicality beats peace of mind. (If we don't concern ourselves with the presence of hanging coils, flipping the phase of the bridge pickup avoids flipping the tone control — and goes back to the minimum requirement of the phase switch being only at least a DPDT.)

Thanks for the resistor info! That helps a lot.

For the out of phase stuff, I see what you mean.

If we don’t care about hanging coils, Rob can wire both of these tapped pickups like normal, and the bridge pickup will be the one connected to the mini switch for phase reversal. The thing is, would this change the sound if the neck pickup were to have its leads switched instead? Because if I want to “blend” out of phase, I would pull up the tone pot, which blends in the neck in parallel. If the bridge pickup has its leads reversed, when blending in the neck pickup, would the sound be the “same” or would it be “really” out of phase from the get go, and get gradually less out of phase as you roll in more neck pickup in parallel?

If we were to “care” about hanging coils, then we would have to have independent leads for both of the coils in the neck pickup. However, as I said earlier, the 8500-2000 coil combo won’t work. Rob will literally have to coil 19000 turns: 8500 turns (coil) + 10500 turns (coil 2) and they’d be layered on each other. If he could do this, I will definitely pay the extra cash, but is it worth it (for both his sake and my wallet’s lol)?

I think it’s worth it if having the bridge have its leads reversed changes the out of phase sound: gradually getting IN phase, rather than getting out of phase gradually (my not as educated mind says that this could be achieved by rolling in a neck pickup that’s out of phase), and another thing is the hanging coil: if curing this actually makes a big difference.

[Yogi B]

Oct 8, 2021 8:39:36 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

If we don’t care about hanging coils, Rob can wire both of these tapped pickups like normal, and the bridge pickup will be the one connected to the mini switch for phase reversal. The thing is, would this change the sound if the neck pickup were to have its leads switched instead? Because if I want to “blend” out of phase, I would pull up the tone pot, which blends in the neck in parallel. If the bridge pickup has its leads reversed, when blending in the neck pickup, would the sound be the “same” or would it be “really” out of phase from the get go, and get gradually less out of phase as you roll in more neck pickup in parallel?

It will have no effect on tone which pickup has its phase reversed (at high volumes, when using feedback, there could be a change in how the guitar interacts with an amp).

Although it's often easier to talk about an out-of-phase pickup, strictly speaking a single coil cannot be out-of-phase — the phase can be reversed from what it once was, but that itself makes no audible difference — only when two (or more) coils are selected can the difference be heard.

If you've ever tuned by using the beating of harmonics, it's similar in principle: simultaneously playing two notes that are almost but quite at the same pitch means the time period of one oscillation is slightly shorter than the other. In turn, this means that over time the phase relationship between the two varies between being at some points in-phase & louder and at others being out-of-phase & quieter — this is the cause of the beating (the closer the two pitches are the less difference between the time periods, therefore the longer time between beats). When playing either of the two notes individually there is no beating, it only occurs when playing them together.

However, as I said earlier, the 8500-2000 coil combo won’t work.

Wait, what?

Oct 5, 2021 17:56:50 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

This is what Rob said about the 2000-8500 coil picture you sent Yogi:

"The 4-wire diagram is absolutely not the way to go as it will never render a usable 8500 and 10500 separate set of turn counts that can be used in a variety of selected pickup configurations. It will only yield separate 8500 and 2000 coils. You could run the red 8500 coil by itself, then join the red finish lead to the orange start lead and create a 10500 coil, but to what advantage over the 3-wire tap? None. It will still come down to separate 8500 and 10500 coils IF you wish to select both of those coils at the same time to join them in series or parallel or flip for phasing with each other, which I think is what yer after. It is what it is."

Rob only said he doesn't see the benefit of the 4-wire tap over the standard 3-wire tap. His comments about combining coils & phasing pertain to combinations using coils of only the neck pickup e.g. the 8500 neck coil out-of-phase with the 10500 neck coil (which would produce very little output) — that is, things that you don't want. All you actually want the neck pickup is to be able to choose between a 8500 coil or a 10500 coil, not mixing both at the same time. A 3-wire tap does that but means we're stuck with at least one coil hanging from hot; a 4-wire tap can do everything that a 3-wire tap can do (by joining the two tap leads, as Rob points out), but gives us the option to eliminate the hanging from hot issue.

another thing is the hanging coil: if curing this actually makes a big difference.

It's hardly scientifically rigorous, but I decided to record a few sound clips, to hopefully give you some idea.

The setup I used had a single coil pickup (orientated such that its polepieces are vertical) sat on top of an about one inch thick piece of wood (a chopping board) which in turn was sat on top of my PC.

I repeated this for four 'levels' of shielding whereby I gradually placed the pickup within an (undrilled) aluminium stompbox enclosure. In all the clips except the last (fully enclosed) I also rub a screwdriver across one of the polepieces to give at least a vague sense of how loud actual signal output would be in comparison to the noise.

In each sound clip there are two settings, initially the jack socket's hot disconnected then at about six seconds I switch it to connected to one of the leads of the pickup. Per variation there are two clips, the first has the other pickup lead disconnected and the second has it connected to ground. So, overall, for each scenario, the clips contain:

• Clip 1: pickup hanging from ground — followed by — pickup fully connected to output;
• Clip 2: pickup fully disconnected — followed by — pickup hanging from hot.

All the clips were recorded with a moderate amount of gain and the same settings (using digital models of a Tube Screamer into a Bassman).

• Scenario A, Zero Shielding:
   Zero Shielding, hanging from ground — followed by — fully connected (link):
   Zero Shielding, fully disconnected — followed by — hanging from hot (link):
  
• Scenario B, Partial Shielding:
  The pickup is sat upon the grounded lid/base of the stompbox enclosure (i.e. the shielding is placed directly between the pickup and the primary source of noise).
  
   Partial Shielding, hanging from ground — followed by — fully connected (link):
   Partial Shielding, fully disconnected — followed by — hanging from hot (link):
  
• Scenario C, Improved Shielding:
  The pickup is sat within the stompbox enclosure, the lid is off / the top is open to the ceiling (i.e. the pickup is shielded from the directions of the bottom and, although not particularly closely, the sides).
  
   Improved Shielding, hanging from ground — followed by — fully connected (link):
   Improved Shielding, fully disconnected — followed by — hanging from hot (link):
  
• Scenario D, Full Shielding:
  The pickup is fully encircled by the stompbox enclosure (i.e. the pickup is shielded from all directions).
  Reminder, no polepieces were molested with a screwdriver in the making of these clips (unlike the others).
  
   Full Shielding, hanging from ground — followed by — fully connected (link):
   Full Shielding, fully disconnected — followed by — hanging from hot (link):
  

Sadly the above doesn't really tell us anything we don't already know: given a noisy enough environment, a coil hanging from hot can manifest that into an audible signal, but this can be reduced or effectively eliminated via adequate shielding. Unfortunately there's no such thing as perfect shielding, only ever good enough shielding. And, in general, is a decently shielded guitar good enough to eliminate hanging from hot noise in an average environment? Possibly, but honestly I don't know.

[thedirestrat]

Oct 9, 2021 4:13:15 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

It will have no effect on tone which pickup has its phase reversed (at high volumes, when using feedback, there could be a change in how the guitar interacts with an amp).

Although it's often easier to talk about an out-of-phase pickup, strictly speaking a single coil cannot be out-of-phase — the phase can be reversed from what it once was, but that itself makes no audible difference — only when two (or more) coils are selected can the difference be heard.

If you've ever tuned by using the beating of harmonics, it's similar in principle: simultaneously playing two notes that are almost but quite at the same pitch means the time period of one oscillation is slightly shorter than the other. In turn, this means that over time the phase relationship between the two varies between being at some points in-phase & louder and at others being out-of-phase & quieter — this is the cause of the beating (the closer the two pitches are the less difference between the time periods, therefore the longer time between beats). When playing either of the two notes individually there is no beating, it only occurs when playing them together.

Dear Yogi, I can't believe I made this silly mistake! Of course it doesn't matter which pickup goes out of phase, because phase is a two pickup (for a Telecaster at least) phenomenon! Yeah if the bridge were to be out of phase with the neck, controlling the blend neck will determine how much "out of phaseness" there is, at blend knob 10, there is no out of phase, going down, out of phase will gradually increase.

Oct 9, 2021 4:13:15 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Rob only said he doesn't see the benefit of the 4-wire tap over the standard 3-wire tap. His comments about combining coils & phasing pertain to combinations using coils of only the neck pickup e.g. the 8500 neck coil out-of-phase with the 10500 neck coil (which would produce very little output) — that is, things that you don't want. All you actually want the neck pickup is to be able to choose between a 8500 coil or a 10500 coil, not mixing both at the same time. A 3-wire tap does that but means we're stuck with at least one coil hanging from hot; a 4-wire tap can do everything that a 3-wire tap can do (by joining the two tap leads, as Rob points out), but gives us the option to eliminate the hanging from hot issue.

Ah I see! Yes there is definitely an advantage if it solves the hanging from coil issue. I believe my confusion lies with the 4 wire conductor. "You could run the red 8500 coil by itself, then join the red finish lead to the orange start lead and create a 10500 coil, but to what advantage over the 3-wire tap? None." But if you connect (solder I guess) the finish lead of the 8500 to the 2000, isn't that the same thing as a three wire standard tap? Or: Rob doesn't connect the leads at all with soldier. There's 4 wires, and they wired to the circuit components (switch, blend pot, etc.) so when at the correct switch position and push pull pot position, the taps will activate that way. "It will only yield separate 8500 and 2000 coils." This line tripped me up, because obviously that is not the goal. But if the start of the 2000 and the finish of the 8500 are connected, I'm guessing it won't be this. But I don't see how that's different from a regular tap (mostly because I'm not experienced at all with tapped pickups!). I'll tell Rob that connecting these particular leads (start and finish) will indeed work for me, and have an advantage for me.

Oct 9, 2021 4:13:15 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

It's hardly scientifically rigorous, but I decided to record a few sound clips, to hopefully give you some idea.

The setup I used had a single coil pickup (orientated such that its polepieces are vertical) sat on top of an about one inch thick piece of wood (a chopping board) which in turn was sat on top of my PC.

I repeated this for four 'levels' of shielding whereby I gradually placed the pickup within an (undrilled) aluminium stompbox enclosure. In all the clips except the last (fully enclosed) I also rub a screwdriver across one of the polepieces to give at least a vague sense of how loud actual signal output would be in comparison to the noise.

In each sound clip there are two settings, initially the jack socket's hot disconnected then at about six seconds I switch it to connected to one of the leads of the pickup. Per variation there are two clips, the first has the other pickup lead disconnected and the second has it connected to ground. So, overall, for each scenario, the clips contain:

• Clip 1: pickup hanging from ground — followed by — pickup fully connected to output;
• Clip 2: pickup fully disconnected — followed by — pickup hanging from hot.

All the clips were recorded with a moderate amount of gain and the same settings (using digital models of a Tube Screamer into a Bassman).

Thank you so much for all this effort! I really hear a difference wow. Yeah shielding definitely makes a difference, because during the penultimate clip, I heard almost no noise (basically nothing)! The hanging coils definitely produce more noise.

Oct 9, 2021 4:13:15 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Sadly the above doesn't really tell us anything we don't already know: given a noisy enough environment, a coil hanging from hot can manifest that into an audible signal, but this can be reduced or effectively eliminated via adequate shielding. Unfortunately there's no such thing as perfect shielding, only ever good enough shielding. And, in general, is a decently shielded guitar good enough to eliminate hanging from hot noise in an average environment? Possibly, but honestly I don't know.

If the 4 conductor 4 pole mini switch combo should work, then we won't need to worry about hanging coils! That's great!

[thedirestrat]

I contacted Rob about the 4 wire 8500-2000 combo, and he said thinks it's a little crazy and unusual to run 8500 turns and terminate, then run another 2000 turns and also terminate, and then apply switching to conflate the two coils into one 10500 turn end-to-end coil that can be phased (his words). “BUT, if that's what you want, I can do that, no problem.” —> Sweet, thanks Rob!

If this works, I think our hanging coil problem should be solved, thanks to you Yogi. With that being said, I think that’s about it for the wiring— circuit is completed, well you’re the only one who knows that Yogi. If it’s truly completed, I’ll buy my electronics parts. The Goldo switch is coming my way— yes I actually found one, and yes I know it’s big, but it should fit according to Warmoth (where I’m getting my body), and if it can’t, I’ll widen the cavity for the electronics to fit. Push pull Bournes pot so the 4PDT switch can fit. The mini switch, a capacitor (probably 0.047 uf or maybe 0.033 uf). Hookup wires, 249k resistor (and some more to experiment)… and I think that’s it.

For the pickups, I’ll post a list of things to ask Rob when I’m ready to order from him, just to make sure I get everything right the first time (there’s no second time).

[thedirestrat]

Rob actually did make a 19000 turns pickup, he just made it. It has .781 tall magnets so all the winds could fit. It's not tapped, just one big single coil. He said he wanted to see where the eyelets were going to go and etc. Holy damn that is a huge pickup! I don't think it would even fit in my pickup cavity. But anyways, I told him many times that if you're going to make this pickup it's not for me, because I don't need it, right? That 8500-2000 combo that he thinks is pretty nuts, but could still do it, the one he described (which I posted above) should work, correct?

[thedirestrat]

Yogi, what's your take on the pickups after reading these messages from Rob?

Thanks!

[Yogi B]

Oct 9, 2021 18:06:56 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

I believe my confusion lies with the 4 wire conductor. "You could run the red 8500 coil by itself, then join the red finish lead to the orange start lead and create a 10500 coil, but to what advantage over the 3-wire tap? None." But if you connect (solder I guess) the finish lead of the 8500 to the 2000, isn't that the same thing as a three wire standard tap? Or: Rob doesn't connect the leads at all with soldier. There's 4 wires, and they wired to the circuit components (switch, blend pot, etc.) so when at the correct switch position and push pull pot position, the taps will activate that way.

Bingo, we can use the switching to convert the pickup into a standard 3-wire tapped pickup — the limitation with the standard way of doing things is that the single tap is always the point where the two coils are joined in series, thus if we connect the tap to the output whichever coil of the two is deselected will be hanging from hot.

However with four wires we have two ways we can connect the coils in series (to get the total 10500 turns), either: the finish of the 8500 turn coil joined to the start of the 2000 turn coil (as per a standard tap); or the start of the 8500 turn coil joined to the finish of the 2000 turn coil. The ability to have this choice enables us to avoid having the unused coil hanging from hot.

Hopefully the following diagram helps to clear it up further:

Oct 9, 2021 4:13:15 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

...Audio Clips...

Thank you so much for all this effort! I really hear a difference wow. Yeah shielding definitely makes a difference, because during the penultimate clip, I heard almost no noise (basically nothing)! The hanging coils definitely produce more noise.

I've since realised that for a fairer representation I should've had another pickup in parallel with all those, so I'll have to redo them at some point.

The above means that the noise directly caused by the coil hanging from hot was likely approximately double what it would be for a typical setup where the fully connected coil & the hanging coil are approximately equal in impedance.

Though that'll cover the common hanging from hot scenario (which includes some of the issues found in previous diagrams in this thread), it's still not a perfect model for a tapped pickup where the two coils are quite dissimilar and coaxially wound in extremely close proximity. Not being in possession of any tapped pickups, the closest I can get to this scenario is by having two pickups vertically stacked and sharing the same polepieces.

Oct 11, 2021 9:33:32 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

Rob actually did make a 19000 turns pickup, he just made it. It has .781 tall magnets so all the winds could fit. It's not tapped, just one big single coil. He said he wanted to see where the eyelets were going to go and etc. Holy damn that is a huge pickup! I don't think it would even fit in my pickup cavity. But anyways, I told him many times that if you're going to make this pickup it's not for me, because I don't need it, right? That 8500-2000 combo that he thinks is pretty nuts, but could still do it, the one he described (which I posted above) should work, correct?

Yeah, the 4-wire 8500-2000 combo is still the way to go.

Separate 8500 and 10500 coils (or something on a similar theme) might be interesting to experiment with, for instance putting the two coils in parallel or OoP with each other — but that isn't what you're after. Also, whichever of the two coils is wound on the outside is going to be significantly further out than if it'd been wound directly around the centre of the bobbin. And as gckelloch mentioned earlier, the variation in magnetic flux through each turn isn't uniform. Therefore the response of the outer coil would likely be noticeably different than if it'd been wound normally (without the inner coil between itself and the polepieces). The increased height of the coil is a further recipe deviation.

Oct 9, 2021 20:40:40 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

With that being said, I think that’s about it for the wiring— circuit is completed, well you’re the only one who knows that Yogi.

I do have a program (of my own creation, so not infallible) to help with that. Which after completing a few adjustments I was making due to recent updates, is now in enough of a functional state to produce the following truth table when given an input equivalent to my latest schematic.

SPOILER: Click to show

Switches				Output
Phase	3-way	T p/p	V p/p	Pickup(s)
In Phase	1	Tone	Nashville	(BA × BB) + (CTone × RPot)
			HUMONGOUS	(BA × BB × BC) + (CTone × RPot)
		Blend	Nashville	(BA × BB) + ((NA + RLoad) × RPot)
			HUMONGOUS	(BA × BB × BC) + (((NA × NB) + RLoad) × RPot)
	2	Tone	Nashville	BA + NA + (CTone × RPot)
			HUMONGOUS
		Blend	Nashville	BA + ((NA + RLoad) × RPot)
			HUMONGOUS
	3	Tone	Nashville	(NA × NB) + (CTone × RPot)
			HUMONGOUS
		Blend	Nashville	(NA × NB) + RLoad
			HUMONGOUS
Out of Phase	1	Tone	Nashville	(BA × BB) + (CTone × RPot)
			HUMONGOUS	(BA × BB × BC) + (CTone × RPot)
		Blend	Nashville	(BA × BB) + ((−NA + RLoad) × RPot)
			HUMONGOUS	(BA × BB × BC) + ((−(NB × NA) + RLoad) × RPot)
	2	Tone	Nashville	BA + −NA + (CTone × RPot)
			HUMONGOUS
		Blend	Nashville	BA + ((−NA + RLoad) × RPot)
			HUMONGOUS
	3	Tone	Nashville	−(NB × NA) + (CTone × RPot)
			HUMONGOUS
		Blend	Nashville	−(NB × NA) + RLoad
			HUMONGOUS

[thedirestrat]

Oct 15, 2021 10:44:06 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Bingo, we can use the switching to convert the pickup into a standard 3-wire tapped pickup — the limitation with the standard way of doing things is that the single tap is always the point where the two coils are joined in series, thus if we connect the tap to the output whichever coil of the two is deselected will be hanging from hot.

However with four wires we have two ways we can connect the coils in series (to get the total 10500 turns), either: the finish of the 8500 turn coil joined to the start of the 2000 turn coil (as per a standard tap); or the start of the 8500 turn coil joined to the finish of the 2000 turn coil. The ability to have this choice enables us to avoid having the unused coil hanging from hot.

Hopefully the following diagram helps to clear it up further:

Wow yes, a big difference! Thanks for clearing this up for me-- I knew it that we'd control the 4 separate leads through switching! Ingenious!

Oct 15, 2021 10:44:06 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Yeah, the 4-wire 8500-2000 combo is still the way to go.

Very good, and now, because of your previous reply, I know why it's still the way to go. I will tell Rob to wind this (4 wire)

Oct 15, 2021 10:44:06 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

I do have a program (of my own creation, so not infallible) to help with that. Which after completing a few adjustments I was making due to recent updates, is now in enough of a functional state to produce the following truth table when given an input equivalent to my latest schematic.

All that is absolutely perfect. It portrays every function I had in mind. Absolute art. I just received the package of all the electronics I bought today. I'm going to open it now. All I have left to do is to order the pickups from Rob!

[thedirestrat]

Oct 15, 2021 10:44:06 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

I've since realised that for a fairer representation I should've had another pickup in parallel with all those, so I'll have to redo them at some point.

The above means that the noise directly caused by the coil hanging from hot was likely approximately double what it would be for a typical setup where the fully connected coil & the hanging coil are approximately equal in impedance.

Though that'll cover the common hanging from hot scenario (which includes some of the issues found in previous diagrams in this thread), it's still not a perfect model for a tapped pickup where the two coils are quite dissimilar and coaxially wound in extremely close proximity. Not being in possession of any tapped pickups, the closest I can get to this scenario is by having two pickups vertically stacked and sharing the same polepieces.

Also, don't worry about the shielding tests, I don't need more! I got a good picture from the first one, plus, the hanging coils issue should go away regardless thanks to the 4 wire neck pickup!

[thedirestrat]

Rob replied, and he said he could very well create the 4 wire tap pickup. I believe this marks the end of our circuit journey fellas... well actually, just the pickup one. I'm going to order from him.
I decided to go with the A3/43 AWG route, so instead of Bakersfield, Nashville and Humongous, it's going to be 50/51 lion (7k), Nocaster Holy Grail (9.8 k) and Nocaster Imperial (13k). 

For the circuit itself, I would say it's done too, but I'm only going to start building it in January, and having the diagram is one thing, but actually putting that into reality (soldering and all that) is going to be *something* that's for sure. Luckily, I should have a pretty good understanding of circuits by then (taking a class). I'm sure I'll still have some questions for you guys, so we're not done quite yet 

Thank you so much for all your help everyone, talk very soon.

[gckelloch]

Oct 16, 2021 14:20:20 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

Rob replied, and he said he could very well create the 4 wire tap pickup. I believe this marks the end of our circuit journey fellas... well actually, just the pickup one. I'm going to order from him.
I decided to go with the A3/43 AWG route, so instead of Bakersfield, Nashville and Humongous, it's going to be 50/51 lion (7k), Nocaster Holy Grail (9.8 k) and Nocaster Imperial (13k). 

For the circuit itself, I would say it's done too, but I'm only going to start building it in January, and having the diagram is one thing, but actually putting that into reality (soldering and all that) is going to be *something* that's for sure. Luckily, I should have a pretty good understanding of circuits by then (taking a class). I'm sure I'll still have some questions for you guys, so we're not done quite yet 

Thank you so much for all your help everyone, talk very soon.

The thinner the wire (and bobbin heights shortened accordingly), the better for efficiency. Judging by the DCR values you gave, 7k of 43AWG around A3 poles should be ~2.2H inductance with the Steel baseplate. That's like a post-CBS Strat pickup -- a good starting point. Inductance can be used to calculate the resonance peak with a given cable capacitance if you know the coil capacitance and the Miller capacitance of the preamp you plug into...or you can run white noise on a mobile phone through some earbuds and hold one up to the pickup when plugged into an A/I unit into a computer and then look at the result on an SPL graph. The peak may be damped too much by the pot values and the base plate and/or pickup covers to tell, but you can at least see where the signal rolls off with whatever cable you use. Either way, I'd use a very low C cable so you can get as much high-end extension as possible without a harsh 3-3.5kHz peak, particularly with the lower two coil taps. If I understand correctly, the inductance increases by the square of the turns. So you could calculate the higher tap inductance values by multiplying the squared ratio of the next highest tap DCR value by the lower inductance value:

9.8/7 = 1.4
1.4² x 2.2H = 4.3H

I think that's how it's done, but I welcome correction.

Can you then calculate the highest tap inductance?

[thedirestrat]

That's pretty cool! The bridge pickup will have a steel baseplate, so maybe the lowest tap inductance would be around 2.6-2.8 henries. Doing the calculations:

50/51 Lion: 2.7 Henries

Nocaster Holy Grail Lion: 9.8/7 = 1.4 (2.7) = ~3.8 Henries

Nocaster Imperial Lion: 13/9.8 = ~1.33 (3.8) = ~5.1 Henries

These seem to make sense, something you'd expect.

I will order the pickups soon from Rob!

[gckelloch]

Oct 17, 2021 8:24:17 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

That's pretty cool! The bridge pickup will have a steel baseplate, so maybe the lowest tap inductance would be around 2.6-2.8 henries. Doing the calculations:

50/51 Lion: 2.7 Henries

Nocaster Holy Grail Lion: 9.8/7 = 1.4 (2.7) = ~3.8 Henries

Nocaster Imperial Lion: 13/9.8 = ~1.33 (3.8) = ~5.1 Henries

These seem to make sense, something you'd expect.

I will order the pickups soon from Rob!

Yeah, that's probably about as high inductance as they'd get. Along with slightly increasing inductance and reducing the high end, the Steel baseplate increases permeability so it's a bit more efficient. That should make it a closer match with the A5 pole neck pickup without a Steel plate. Lowering the neck pickup a bit to match the bridge pickup volume will also make the volume level more consistent from the low to high frets, and the notes will then have less warble. So there could actually be an advantage to A5 poles in the neck if you also prefer less low harmonic strength there. Should be interesting.

[thedirestrat]

Interesting information, GCKelloch!

What you said makes sense, I think if all goes well with my soldering and installation, this instrument could be quite versatile especially with the controlled amount of out of phaseness.

[gckelloch]

Oct 17, 2021 10:48:11 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

Interesting information, GCKelloch!

What you said makes sense, I think if all goes well with my soldering and installation, this instrument could be quite versatile especially with the controlled amount of out of phaseness.

I realized I did not square the wind ratio increase in my calculation. I also estimated the inductance of the 7k wind a bit high based on values provided by the late Bill Lawrence (Willi L Stitch), whose proprietary winding machines could wind coils tighter than usual by readjusting tension as they wind. I assume Rob does not wind that tight. I went back and edited my post to reflect both of those changes. Perhaps you should redo your calcs as well.

The DCR value increases progressively higher than the wind count as the coil gets wider and I suspect the inductance doesn't increase exactly linearly as there must be some loss as the energy from the inner winds disperses outward, so the higher inductance vales are probably slightly lower than calculated. Either way, the highest tap would be in the Steel core bridge P90 inductance range. Hopefully at least delivering strong enough ~2kHz with 250k pots for decent clarity. If you do use a very low C cable (100~200pF) as I recommend, you might want to add a ~300pF cap in parallel when the top tap is engaged to give it back some bite.

[thedirestrat]

Ok guys, I'm going to order from Mr. Di Stefano!

Here's the order list:

Neck: tapped: lion king and fat lion king

AlNiCo 5 Magnets

Magnet diameter of .195

Nickel Silver chrome cover

4 wire tap: 8500-2000 tap. Each tap has its own start and finish lead (no leads are soldered together).


Bridge:
AlNiCo 3 43 AWG Hydra Tap: 50-51 Lion, Nocaster Holy Grail, Nocaster Imperial

Magnet diameter of .195


That should be all correct? I know this is everything we've discussed but I'm being extra prudent, because I know I have to get this right only once!

Thanks!

[gckelloch]

Oct 20, 2021 18:06:05 GMT -5 thedirestrat said:

Ok guys, I'm going to order from Mr. Di Stefano!

Here's the order list:

Neck: tapped: lion king and fat lion king

AlNiCo 5 Magnets

Magnet diameter of .195

Nickel Silver chrome cover

4 wire tap: 8500-2000 tap. Each tap has its own start and finish lead (no leads are soldered together).


Bridge:
AlNiCo 3 43 AWG Hydra Tap: 50-51 Lion, Nocaster Holy Grail, Nocaster Imperial

Magnet diameter of .195


That should be all correct? I know this is everything we've discussed but I'm being extra prudent, because I know I have to get this right only once!

Thanks!

Not sure how to judge if the tap values are right or wrong, but I agree with the magnet, bridge baseplate, and neck cover choices. Those elements should result in less tonal difference between the pickups than a Tele with all AlNiCo V poles and a brass neck cover. The neck also 43AWG?

[thedirestrat]

Yes! 43 AWG for both pickups!

[thedirestrat]

Yogi B
gckelloch

Rob replied to my order!

“All of what you wish is doable. 

1. Dual coil custom Lion King, 8500/2000 43AWG coil wire turns over A5 rod magnets - to your additional spex listed below
    8500 coil = black/ground + white/signal
    2000 coil = yellow/ground + red/signal
    cover ground = green

2. Dual tap custom Hydra Lion, 7500/9800/13000 43AWG coil wire turns over A3 rod magnets - to your additional spex listed below
    7500 tap = white
    9800 tap = yellow
    13000 tap = red
    base plate string ground = green

A full info sheet, including the above data, will accompany the pickups.”

I believe this includes everything we talked about! I just want to get the A-okay from you guys, maybe there’s something else to add.

[thedirestrat]

The man, the myth, the legend, Rob, already made the pickups and they're sent my way





Happy pickin' everybody!

[thedirestrat]

"I've also labeled the start and finish leads for the Dual Lion King.

The black/ground and white/signal are for the Lion King. To phase this, white is ground and black is signal.

To create the Fat Lion King, the black is ground, the white is connected to the yellow, and the red is the signal. To phase this, black is signal and red is ground.

This info is also included with the pickups.

1. Dual coil custom Lion King, 8500/2000 43AWG coil wire turns over A5 rod magnets
8500 coil = black/ground/start lead + white/signal/finish lead
2000 coil = yellow/ground/start lead + red/signal/finish lead
cover ground = green

2. Dual tap custom Hydra Lion, 7500/9800/13000 43AWG coil wire turns over A3 rod magnets
7500 tap = white
9800 tap = yellow
13000 tap = red
base plate string ground = green <--- this is optional, not needed if the strings are already grounded via a ground lead stuck under the bridge itself.
BLACK = coil ground"

Perfect, this all lines up to what we discussed!