SWITCH 5-WAY LEVER 4 pole DISCRETE/COM

[coloxim]

Hi,
I understood how work switch 5 way, but i don' t find any scheme  about the fender switch SWITCH 5-WAY LEVER 4 pole DISCRETE


someone could help me, please?


thank you so much!

[sumgai]

coloxim,



Hi, and welcome to the NutzHouse.


What you're describing is what the guitar world calls a Superswitch - 5 positions, 4 distinct poles, each with discrete tabs or lugs for connections. I think that if you use the Search box from the menu above, you'll find that just entering "Superswitch" (all one word, no space), you'll get a ton of posts to look at.

But perhaps we can shorten that search - what do you have in mind for using that switch?

HTH





sumgai

[coloxim]

Hi,


thank you so much!

is it like a superswitch?
because i saw the superswitch but they haven't 4 pole, but 6...
i'm a littel bit confuse...this one have 4 and 6 pole...the 4 pole are connected to the 6?


anyway in hss stratocaster i want to turn on neck pickup with s-1, and have autosplit in 2 position(or 4th)...

[coloxim]

i've also another question... is better to use one volume pot  with 250k and 500k in the same pot or use a 500k pot with 2 parallel resistor for the single coil?

[sumgai]

Dec 24, 2021 18:30:44 GMT -5 coloxim said:

.....
is it like a superswitch?
because i saw the superswitch but they haven't 4 pole, but 6...
i'm a littel bit confuse...this one have 4 and 6 pole...the 4 pole are connected to the 6?

No, there are only 4 poles on a Superswitch. I think you may be confusing a terminal (where you solder a wire) with the word "pole". In a 5 discrete position switch, there are 6 terminals, 1 of them being common to the other 5. Those other terminals are selected individually when the actuator is moved to a new position. Now, I've just described a single pole on a Superswitch. Multiply that by 4, and you have the entire switch. And don't forget, there is a "half-Superswitch" that has only 2 poles. Sometimes this is a good thing for simple jobs, and it doesn't cost as much as the full Superswitch.

Dec 24, 2021 18:30:44 GMT -5 coloxim said:

anyway in hss stratocaster i want to turn on neck pickup with s-1, and have autosplit in 2 position(or 4th)...

This can be done, but it seems like overkill if that's all you want to do, because the combination of a Fender S1 and a Superswitch can accomplish a heck of a lot more. What other pickup combinations might you want to achieve?

Dec 24, 2021 18:54:14 GMT -5 coloxim said:

i've also another question... is better to use one volume pot  with 250k and 500k in the same pot or use a 500k pot with 2 parallel resistor for the single coil?

This is a common question here in The NutzHouse.  I personally like to use 500K or 1Meg pots for single coils, because I can always turn down the Tone pot a little bit, or I can just not turn up the Treble control on the amplifer quite so high.  But many others do prefer a 250K pot, there's nothing wrong with that.  However, using a pair of resistors to jump across the terminals of a 500K pot to reduce it to 250K will "work", but it changes the way the volume is reduced - instead of a smooth decline, the rotation might cause a small change in one area, and an unexpectedly large change in another area.  Some of that depends on the resistor values, and it should be obvious that what sounds good to the user will most likely require some experimentation.

HTH





sumgai

[MattB]

The Fender Discrete 4 pole switch isn't the same as other superswitches.

It has one superswitch wafer, which has two poles with a separate lug for each position, and one standard 5-way wafer, which has two poles with the usual three lugs for five positions.

Fender do also sell a "standard" superswitch, which works the way sumgai described. The part number for the Discrete version is 0078776049. The part number for the normal, non-shorting version is 0992251000.

[coloxim]

Dec 24, 2021 23:16:55 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Dec 24, 2021 18:30:44 GMT -5 coloxim said:

.....
is it like a superswitch?
because i saw the superswitch but they haven't 4 pole, but 6...
i'm a littel bit confuse...this one have 4 and 6 pole...the 4 pole are connected to the 6?

No, there are only 4 poles on a Superswitch. I think you may be confusing a terminal (where you solder a wire) with the word "pole". In a 5 discrete position switch, there are 6 terminals, 1 of them being common to the other 5. Those other terminals are selected individually when the actuator is moved to a new position. Now, I've just described a single pole on a Superswitch. Multiply that by 4, and you have the entire switch. And don't forget, there is a "half-Superswitch" that has only 2 poles. Sometimes this is a good thing for simple jobs, and it doesn't cost as much as the full Superswitch.

Dec 24, 2021 18:30:44 GMT -5 coloxim said:

anyway in hss stratocaster i want to turn on neck pickup with s-1, and have autosplit in 2 position(or 4th)...

This can be done, but it seems like overkill if that's all you want to do, because the combination of a Fender S1 and a Superswitch can accomplish a heck of a lot more. What other pickup combinations might you want to achieve?

Dec 24, 2021 18:54:14 GMT -5 coloxim said:

i've also another question... is better to use one volume pot  with 250k and 500k in the same pot or use a 500k pot with 2 parallel resistor for the single coil?

This is a common question here in The NutzHouse.  I personally like to use 500K or 1Meg pots for single coils, because I can always turn down the Tone pot a little bit, or I can just not turn up the Treble control on the amplifer quite so high.  But many others do prefer a 250K pot, there's nothing wrong with that.  However, using a pair of resistors to jump across the terminals of a 500K pot to reduce it to 250K will "work", but it changes the way the volume is reduced - instead of a smooth decline, the rotation might cause a small change in one area, and an unexpectedly large change in another area.  Some of that depends on the resistor values, and it should be obvious that what sounds good to the user will most likely require some experimentation.

HTH





sumgai

Ok, thanks for the explanation...

What can I do more? With super switch I've always 5 position, I've to renounce to one position to do something different?


So is better have a pot volume with 250 and 500k...

[coloxim]

Dec 25, 2021 7:05:13 GMT -5 MattB said:

The Fender Discrete 4 pole switch isn't the same as other superswitches.

It has one superswitch wafer, which has two poles with a separate lug for each position, and one standard 5-way wafer, which has two poles with the usual three lugs for five positions.

Fender do also sell a "standard" superswitch, which works the way sumgai described. The part number for the Discrete version is 0078776049. The part number for the normal, non-shorting version is 0992251000.

Yes,
I've 4pole discrete, but there is a scheme of it? I don't find anything...

[Deleted]

Them switch do you really need a diagram.

You should be able to see what is happening it's all open!!

A common goes on all the pole track
The track has a smaller connections that touch a track that is hooked on the main track
You can see how it works it's all visible

[sumgai]

Dec 25, 2021 7:05:13 GMT -5 MattB said:

It has one superswitch wafer, which has two poles with a separate lug for each position, and one standard 5-way wafer, which has two poles with the usual three lugs for five positions.

That was interesting, to say the least. I was unaware of that bastardized version, and for the life of me, I can't fathom any reason to make such a thing, not even a minute reduction in the cost to manufacture it. But hey, I'm a Luddite of the first stripe, so who am I to cast aspersions here?






sumgai

[Deleted]

I've always wanted to change the track that all these lugs travel over.

I think some damaged ones and I want to look at the track that it rotate on.
But how to make a copy out of metal. Would need stamp maybe !

[coloxim]

thanks guys!!

[newey]

So, like sumgai, I had never seen or heard of this switch before, and it does seem kind of silly. You wouldn't be able to do anything with it that couldn't be done with a regular Superswitch, but it is much more limited than the Superswitch, so unless there is a significant cost difference, I can't see much use for this.

Basically, what I would envision for this thing is that you would wire the one half of the switch that is a regular Strat 2P3T to give the standard Strat parallel combos. You would then need a second switch, a mini toggle or push/pull pot (could use an S-1 but would be overkill, you don't need the S-1's 4 poles), to switch from the regular 5-way side to the "half superswitch" side to give you other options. The second half is like a "half Superswitch", a 2P5T switch, so switching to that mode could allow for some series combinations, N + B, and so forth.

[newey]

Here's a couple of Fender factory wiring diagrams using this switch, just for purposes of illustration. Bottom line, Fender doesn't seem to be doing much with this switch.


This is a diagram for a 2014 HSS "American Standard Shawbucker Strat". One pole of the regular 5-way deck of the switch controls the neck and middle pickups, while the 2 "Superswitch" poles controls the bridge HB and routes all 3 pickups to output. The switch options are just regular 5-way switching, the only real reason for the "discete switch" is to allow the use of a dual-gang volume pot to separate the V and T controls for the bridge HB. Not clear to me why they thought they needed this particular switch to do that . . .


This is for a 2013 HSH American Deluxe Strat. Here the Half-Superswitch deck of the discrete switch is used to split the neck HB in position 4 and to split the bridge HB at position 2; the regular 5-way half of the switch is wired just like any Strat, so it gives the coil splits pluds the middle pickup at 2 and 4. They are only using one pole of the Superswitch half; again, seems the could have done this with a regular 5-way switch.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 26, 2021 18:05:05 GMT -5 newey said:

You wouldn't be able to do anything with it that couldn't be done with a regular Superswitch, but it is much more limited than the Superswitch

I disagree with the first part but somewhat agree with the second part.

For instance:

To accomplish the typical N|N+M|M|M+B|B selection with a superswitch, you need two sections of the superswitch, leaving you two sections of the superswitch for other tasks.

You can accomplish the typical N|N+M|M|M+B|B selection with just one section of standard part of the switch. That leaves two sections of the superswitch for other tasks AND the other section of the standard switch for other tasks.

So I reckon if you look long and hard enough, you just might be able to find something you can do with the DiscReet switch that can't be done with a superswitch.

---

otoh ...

You aren't limited to the typical pickup selections and the accompanied sequence when using a superswitch. So there's inherently more flexibility there.

ime, there are a LOT of things you can do with a superswitch that you can't do with this switch. And there are a rare few things you might do with this switch that can't be done with a superswitch.

YMMV.

[MattB]

There are a few Fender designs that get a little more use out of the switch. The American Deluxe and  American Elite both use a 4-pole discrete switch and an S1 switch to add five extra selections. I think from Fender's point of view an big advantage of this switch is probabaly that it's easy to keep the standard dual tone control setup.  Personally I'm not a fan of having both tones active in position two, and I don't see any benefit that would be worth using a different switch, but I could see Fender not wanting to release a Strat that didn't have exactly the standard selection of sounds.

[dylanhunt]

Dec 27, 2021 11:12:56 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Dec 26, 2021 18:05:05 GMT -5 newey said:

You wouldn't be able to do anything with it that couldn't be done with a regular Superswitch, but it is much more limited than the Superswitch

I disagree with the first part but somewhat agree with the second part.

For instance:

To accomplish the typical N|N+M|M|M+B|B selection with a superswitch, you need two sections of the superswitch, leaving you two sections of the superswitch for other tasks.

You can accomplish the typical N|N+M|M|M+B|B selection with just one section of standard part of the switch. That leaves two sections of the superswitch for other tasks AND the other section of the standard switch for other tasks.

So I reckon if you look long and hard enough, you just might be able to find something you can do with the DiscReet switch that can't be done with a superswitch.
... And there are a rare few things you might do with this switch that can't be done with a superswitch.

I am running into a serious use-case of this idea that there are things you can do with this (2p5t standard + 2p5t discrete) Strat switch that can't be done with a (4p5t) super switch.  In particular, to repeat reTrEaD's point and to spin it in a slightly different direction, while it is easy enough to convert the usual Strat positions on one half of a 2p5t traditional Strat switch to half of the super switch, as Seymour Duncan shows (https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/latest-updates/guitar-wiring-explored-introducing-the-super-switch-part-1):

... but only by joining two of the poles together by way of the common terminals, by doing so, two poles must be used to reproduce what is done on one pole on the standard switch.  If the neck and middle pickup leads, or the bridge and middle pickup leads, were combined on a single pole, then the throw positions where you would expect to hear just the bridge pickup or just the neck pickup (or just the middle pickup for that matter) would be hardwired such that at least one other pickup (and probably both of the other pickups) would be combined (e.g., Position 1 would have at least the bridge and the middle pickups combined because of the overlap).  Separating the pickups on discrete throw positions and even separate poles keeps the single pickup throw positions traditional.  The limitation (and also the reason why this is so), then, is not only the loss of real estate, but that you physically have to separate the combined pickups (e.g., neck + middle in position 4 or bridge + middle in position 2) on separate poles and to join them again by means of the linked common terminals.  This is only a problem if you are trying to reproduce "normal" Strat throw-positions.  Despite the freedom afforded by the discrete terminals, their discreteness blocks you from producing unusual combinations, such as Neck + Bridge, as long as you are committed to normal Strat positions.

I'm trying to work out a more general representation of the relationship between the standard 5-way switch and the super switch than what Seymour Duncan provides.  For example, I would like to be able to easily translate to the connections for (two poles of) a super switch from some novel use of the standard 5-way switch, such as MattB's wiring for a Super Series Strat (see guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/10211/super-series-fender-discrete-switch)   ...without knowing anything about the rest of the circuit (i.e., without reconfiguring the original wiring pattern):

It might be that there cannot be a one-to-one mapping, or that it is impossible in principle and practice for some standard switch wiring schemes to be converted to two poles of a super switch.  Or maybe I should say that the loss of real estate here makes it impossible to do everything in the diagram immediately above and still have two poles of a super switch left to do other things (because converting one pole of the 5-way required two poles of the standard switch, and so the diagram above could require at least three poles to convert it to a super switch with discrete terminals, rather than merely two).  The two poles of the super switch in Seymour Duncan's diagram (to repeat myself) is one more pole than is required of the standard 5-way switch.

The image below is almost a faithful translation of MattB's use of the standard section of the odd (2p5t standard + 2p5t discrete) Fender Strat switch:

If it can be made actually faithful, that will happen only because the standard common terminals are left independent (because there are two separate poles in the super switch case) and because MattB leaves one terminal on either pole unused, but currently that independence would stop the red₁ and purple wires from combining in Position 2, and would stop red₂ and grey wires from combining in Position 4.  If either of the 5-way's terminals that are left unused were actually to be used, it would not be possible to reproduce it with two discrete 5t poles alone.  That's probably not an accident, but a result of MattB's designing a circuit that will reproduce the normal parallel Strat positions.  So, I'm still confident there might be a work-around somewhere here (or, possibly, with only minimal reconfiguring of MattB's original scheme).

[dylanhunt]

As it happens, a faithful solution of the mapping of the traditional 2-pole part of the hybrid Fender Strat switch in MattB's Super Series Strat scheme is shown below... with significant differences from what I initially anticipated.  After learning about the many cases in graph theory in which a general solution is not possible (e.g., Hamilton Circuits), I decided to violate my original condition for mapping the odd (2p5t standard + 2p5t discrete) hybrid Fender Strat switch to a super switch--that condition was that I should be kept ignorant of the rest of the circuit.  I also wanted to verify MattB's circuit, translate his design for use with a super switch, and then verify that my translation would work.  The second and third steps led me to do some minor reconfiguration of his original wiring pattern, rather than trying to achieve my original goal, which was to imagine an algorithm for mapping the odd (2p5t standard + 2p5t discrete) hybrid Fender Strat switch to a super switch.

The discrete terminals on the Super Switch to which switch-component 2A is being mapped allows for Terminals 2-5 to be hardwired without any unwanted consequences in this particular case (That might sounds contradictory, but the idea is that the Common terminal on the pole (Sw2A) is being used to accomplish a specific strategy: access to the neck ground lead for any of the four terminals used on that promiscuous pole, but only in conjunction with either a) less promiscuous terminals on one or more other poles (e.g., Sw2D), or b) paths leading to a dead end due to an open circuit at the S-1 switch on a given path--which allows for separate paths to Sw2A and, therefore, to the neck ground lead.).  Was that happy coincidence (for my translation attempt) that one might credit MattB's particular design with? Maybe a super switch and 4p2t (S-1) switch affords sufficient freedom to have several significantly different configurations as implementations of the 5 traditional Strat options and the 5 series options MattB wanted, which would suggest that the limitations of the super switch compared to the hybrid Fender Strat switch might be much less limiting than was suggested above.  Regardless, I'm working up a schematic of the whole translation and will post for review elsewhere when finished.

[image edited 3/4/23 in response to MattB's observation about Switch 2A(lug 4)]

[MattB]

Feb 13, 2023 1:30:11 GMT -5 dylanhunt said:

I don't have time today to look at this in detail, so maybe I'm missing something here but I do see one potential issue. Connecting the red2 and grey wires together at lug 4 means those two wires are also connected in every other position. I think that means the bridge pickup will still be connected in series mode, position 5; making it the same as position 4.

[dylanhunt]

Feb 14, 2023 5:24:14 GMT -5 MattB said:

Feb 13, 2023 1:30:11 GMT -5 dylanhunt said:

I don't have time today to look at this in detail, so maybe I'm missing something here but I do see one potential issue. Connecting the red2 and grey wires together at lug 4 means those two wires are also connected in every other position. I think that means the bridge pickup will still be connected in series mode, position 5; making it the same as position 4.

Thanks MattB.  Well, it's a good idea that I bought the hybrid switch your scheme calls for and installed electronics according to your scheme (twice!), rather than wiring according to my translation scheme. The Fender 2/3-throw switches confuse me and I thought a new way of drawing the signal path would help--I made elaborate walkthrough drawings in PowerPoint of each switch setting, "inspired by graph theory", but I need to better distinguish the hardwired parts from the switched connections.  I saw the issue you mention, in reference to the drawing above, but then thought my "more technical" drawings trumped what is very plain to see in the illustration above.  When I reviewed that issue with the connection from Switch 2D(2) to Switch2A (comm) using my PowerPoint drawing, I treated it as a switched connection, and so ignored what is actually a hardwired connection and reasoned incorrectly that the segment from Switch 2A(5) is not connected to the Bridge pickup's hot lead in position 5.

Maybe it's not possible to translate your scheme to a fully discrete Superswitch.  Where's that rock guitarist Leonhard Euler when you need him?