Another HHH wiring question....

[needmorefingers]

Hello all!

I've never attempted anything like this, and after much research down many YouTube rabbit holes then listening to my brain sizzle, here I am!!!

I've been trying to find a diagram that would help me do a HHH setup. I have an old Westone that had all the electronics stripped out of it and I've recently bought some new pickups/push-pull pots... After checking out the original guitar's wiring diagram, I've decided I want to try something simpler that I will actually utilize...

I performed all the tests recommended here with a DMM to determine what wires were from each coil, polarity, ohm reading...

Here's the pickups I have:

Neck and Bridge = GFS Pickups
After much frustration trying to understand the wiring, I realized they were NOT GFS wired retail pups... as stated on their page.... DUH!!!
Tried testing using the Seymore Duncan codes and that was it!!
Neck Pickup
Series wiring = Start with Black end with Green w/Red+White together = 11.8k
Individual Coils = Black+White = 5.86k (North)
                          = Red+Green = 5.86k (South)

Bridge Pickup

Series wiring = Start with Black end with Green w/Red+White together = 16.05k

Individual Coils = Black+White = 8.04k (North)
                          = Red+Green = 8.04k (South)

 

Middle = Dragonfire Dual Blade Single Sized Humbucker
This is wired for middle position (RWRP)
Series wiring = Start with Black end with Green w/Red+White together = 11.8k

Individual Coils = Black+White = 5.95k (South)
                          = Red+Green = 5.95k (North)


I'm looking to have 3 individual volumes that also have push-pull option for coil splitting each pickup, all going to a master volume. Kind of like a "Mickey Baker" wiring but a master volume instead of master tone... Mickey Baker Guitar

I have it currently drawn with the master volume push/pull being a kill switch... Would really like to do something else with the push/pull switch as I don't use that playing style..>?








I had it hooked up with clips and wire strands on my desk and it all seemed to work according to the DMM. I'm just nervous about soldering all this together and it not working in my guitar...

Could you gurus take a look at this and help a newbie out?
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!!!

[Deleted]

With the volumes a lot of signal will be lost


If you just have NECK say then you have the
Neck in parallel (never spell that right) with Middle and Bridge volumes

------------

Could put a Bleed, Clipper or some preset tone.
If you want to replace the Kill switch

[jhng]

Hello and welcome to GN2. It looks like you've already got a good handle on this project, so I have just a few comments:

- As @angellahash says, your three independent volume pots are all going to load the circuit in parallel which might undermine your sound. You could avoid this by simply leaving the ground lug of those volume pots unconnected. Then they will not provide a route to ground but will simply add resistance in line with the relevant pickup. This will still be easily enough for you to completely fade out one or more pickups when the pots are turned all the way but will avoid loading the circuit by having three parallel resistors all going to ground.

- On a related point, according to JohnH, blending pickups in parallel works best with the audio tapers reversed. Otherwise, each pickup volume will fade its pickup out very quickly and you will have no further change from 8 to 0. If you do the pickup volumes the other way around, so 0 is full volume and 10 is faded out, you will get a much more useful spread of blending.

As regards alternatives for the push-pull on the master volume, my suggestions would be:

- A blower switch. Since you have no pickup selector, I would find it very handy to have the option of a switch that bypasses the pickup volumes and simply connects the bridge pup straight through (either to the master volume or to the jack). That way you always have the option to go straight to a loud, bright sound if you need to cut through for a solo or similar. This would be my top choice, if I had a guitar with your setup.

- A phase switch on the middle pickup. Combined with your pickup volumes this might provide a useful set of additional tonal options.

- A switchable tone that adds in a tone cap either across the whole guitar or across a single pickup.

- Adding caps across one coil of the Bridge and Neck pickups, respectively, to give a 'half-humbucker' sound, which I think is also known as a 'Broadbucker'. Basically, you get the bottom end from two coils and the top end from one coil.

As a radical alternative, if you decided that you did not need a Master Volume after all, you could use that hole for a three-way pickup selector (probably a mini-toggle in order to fit) on Neck and Bridge. Then by winding down the Middle pickup you at least have the option of playing it like a regular LP with pickup select and independent volumes. Personally, I would find it quite frustrating after a while to always have to adjust faders in order to change pickup selections. However, it does depend on your own playing style and I guess that you have already thought about this aspect.

[Deleted]

Dual Pot Push Pull
Top one your VOLUME 250/500K
Bottom one LOW ohms, as the Bottom one is a Flip of the Top.
I would CUT the track near the Ground side on the Volume pot wafer
Pickup to Bottom Wafer Lug 2, Bottom Wafer Lug 1 to Top Wafer Lug 2
Bottom & Top Wafer Lug 3 to Ground
Top Wafer Lug 1 to OUTPUT.

Now means that when you put to ZERO its off and the VOLUME isnt loading on the over all circuit. 50 Ohms Wafer would be NICE.

[newey]

nmf-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

Looks like your questions are pretty much answered, so just consider me the Welcoming Committee (of one).

I have it currently drawn with the master volume push/pull being a kill switch... Would really like to do something else with the push/pull switch as I don't use that playing style..>?

Even if that were your playing style, a push/pull is not a great option for a kill switch, it's hard to get that "machine gun" effect pulling up on a knob. And, mechanically, push/pulls are more flimsy than a toggle, so unlikely to stand up to the kind of use that a kill switch gets.

The point made about loading the circuit with all the volume pots is a valid one. jhng's idea of a blower switch therefore has some merit here.

Coincidentally, I have a 3-volume Strat-type guitar in the works (got the pickguard all wired up, but I have to secure a body and neck to put it into . . .) Mine, however, does not use a master volume, and I'm using pots with a SPST On/Off switch with a detent, similar to those used for radios and so forth. That way, each pickup can be "clicked off" when turned all the way down, thus taking the pickup and its pot out of circuit when not active. Not saying you should do that, just another similar idea.

As drawn, with the RWRP middle, you will be splitting the middle pickup to the South coil, and the B and N to the North coil. When split, therefore, N + M and B + M will be hum-cancelling, but N + B will not. If you think you would be using N + B moreso than other split combos, you might consider splitting either N or B to the SOuth coil, so that the N + B combo would be hum-cancelling. You would then lose hum-cancelling, though, in one or the other of the middle pickup combos. Or, alternativley, you could use the 4th P/P to swap the coils on one pickup so as to maximize hum-cancelling. Just a thought.

[needmorefingers]

Thanks so much for the welcome and all your suggestions!!

After reading thru your replies, I've decided that a Master Volume with 3 individual volumes may not be the most practical.... For some reason I had it in my head that I needed to be able to have the middle pickup by itself whenever I wanted it. After mocking this up in the guitar today, I realized that it doesn't do much on its own.. Much lower in volume by itself than I thought it would be, but it does add a little more depth to the overall sound when using with the bridge pup. Not worthy of all that knob fiddling just to get something that doesn't add much though...!!

I like the idea of utilizing a push/pull as a blower switch for the bridge pup, very interesting ideas ya'll have! angellahash blows me away with that double pot push/pull thing!! What a cool idea, but I feel it's more than my skill level can currently handle.. Eventually I'd like to disassemble the guitar and give it a proper paint job and do some of that fancy wiring trickery, right now I'm still struggling to do a proper solder joint...!!!
3-
I did buy this 3 way toggle when I purchased my parts, I can utilize it rather than the master volume idea. The guitar was originally a 3 knob (1-Master Vol=Push/pull split N+B, 2-Middle tone=Push/Pull on/off middle pup, 3-Tone N+B=Push/pull phase rev B) with a 3 way toggle in the upper horn. The original wiring schematic I found was near impossible to follow with 5 conductor pups..!! And there was no interpretation of wiring colors, so I was completely lost and wasted much time and beer trying to figure it all out...!!

I'm installing a taller sustain block on the new trem tonight since the one that came with it was a 32mm and my springs won't clear in the cavity... When I'm done with that and get the guitar back together, I'd really like to try some of your ideas...? My only problem is I'm a visual guy who likes drawings and schematics... Could anybody help me out by marking up what I have, or at least explaining moving a wire(s) from point 'A' to point 'B' to achieve some of your thoughts?

Since it looks like you guys like a challenge, any fresh thoughts on what I could do simply with what I have? Essentially I have 3 Linear 500k push/pulls, 3 way toggle, lots of wire, solder, and ambition....  and I forgot cheap beer!!!

I don't have to utilize all the push/pulls if I don't need to, especially if I can do something more efficiently with 1.


I'm just enjoying learning and understanding the insides of this thing that I've held in my hands for so long!! Never had a project from the ground up, and this has definitely been quite a challenge so far....

Thanks again for all your ideas, looking forward to your replies!!
Andy

[newey]

Jan 5, 2022 19:46:23 GMT -5 needmorefingers said:

Could anybody help me out by marking up what I have, or at least explaining moving a wire(s) from point 'A' to point 'B' to achieve some of your thoughts?

Yes, we can do that. But it tends to work better if you say "I want a diagram to do this and that", rather than, well, we draw up a diagram to see if you like it, only to have you say "well, I'd rather have this other thing".

Now, if it were my HHH guitar, I'd have:

One push/pull to turn the middle pickup on/off, and to serve as a middle pickup volume. I would not bother to split the coil on the middle "dual blade" HB, those small coils don't sound like much when split IMO. This will give you all the middle combos with the N and B HBs.

3-way toggle switch would give you N/N+B/B, just as with any HH LP-style guitar.

With one hole for the 3-way toggle, you'd be back to three pots. One, as above, would be middle volume (rather than tone), and would be a push/pull to add the middle. The second would be a Bridge/neck volume, also with a push/pull, which would split both HBs simultaneously to single-coil operation. The third would be a master tone, using a dual-gang pot, with one gang for the middle pickup, and the other for the bridge/neck tone. If a blower switch is also desired, a dual-gang pot with a P/P switch does exist, I bought a couple a few weeks ago.

[needmorefingers]

After I put the trem block in, I mock-wired everything up to my drawing and you guys are totally right!! The neck pup was way louder than the others, middle by itself was half as loud, bridge wasn't bad but had way less volume than the neck... seemed I was losing volume with all the resistance..

Thanks for the reply newey! I understand what you're saying, I definitely do not want to waste anyone's time by asking for diagrams that you would be posting only to say,"ehh.... I need something else!!" At this point I think it would be cool to try what you've explained in your last post..

One, as above, would be middle volume (rather than tone), and would be a push/pull to add the middle. The second would be a Bridge/neck volume, also with a push/pull, which would split both HBs simultaneously to single-coil operation. The third would be a master tone, using a dual-gang pot, with one gang for the middle pickup, and the other for the bridge/neck tone.

Since I don't have a dual gang pot, could I try to do this using the parts that I currently have?

3-way toggle switch - N/N+B/B, just as with any HH LP-style guitar.
First knob - Master volume for N+B / Push/Pull=Coil Split N+B
Second Knob - Middle Volume / Push/Pull=on/off Middle Pickup
Third Knob - Tone N+B / Push/Pull=Blower Switch for B? (If blower switch isn't possible with this setup=no prob... just trying to utilize what I have)

This is the diagram I would like to have...!! After thinkin n drinkin, I believe this will be more useful than what I originally intended!! 

If you guys could help me out with something similar to my drawing (I understand those types better than the electric symbol kind), I would really appreciate it! Hopefully I can learn some things and be helpful here in the future...

Thank you again!!

[sumgai]

Jan 5, 2022 23:40:59 GMT -5 needmorefingers said:

The neck pup was way louder than the others, middle by itself was half as loud, bridge wasn't bad but had way less volume than the neck...

Have you adjusted the pickup heights to roughly match each other?   Your description sounds to me like the Mid pup is way too low, compared to the others....

And of course, your Middle pickup could be bad, or at least partially bad. Have you taken a meter reading of all three of them - if not, now's the time to do it. Meter readings should be fairly similar if they're a "set" (as found on the original guitar), and not modified/replaced by a previous owner.


HTH



sumgai

[newey]

Jan 6, 2022 0:52:47 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Have you taken a meter reading of all three of them

sumgai-

Yes. he laid out the DCR of each coil in the first post, and they seem OK.

needmorefingers:
The reason for the dual-gang pot is to separate the tone for the middle pickup from the other 2, given the separate volumes. You can wire a regular "master tone" for all 3 pickups, but it will behave a bit wonky when multiple pickups are activated. For example, with the master tone wired to all 3 pickups, the middle volume pot will also turn down the B and N pickups when the middle is active with them, and vice versa with the B/N Volume.

OTOH, people do build guitars wired that way. Probably only a minority of players use their tone controls anyway. Up to you if you want to try that.

Anyway, I'll try to work up a diagram of your "wish list", although it may be the weekend before I can get to it.

[needmorefingers]

Hey guys! thanks for the replies...!!


sumgai  

Have you taken a meter reading of all three of them

newey

Yes. he laid out the DCR of each coil in the first post, and they seem OK.

The original readings were from the pups outside the guitar on their own, tested individually from lead to lead... that was how I figured out start/finish/polarity...

I went ahead and cobbled the thing together late last night using my diagram to just get the hang of things and see how it laid out in the cavity..

Here are the readings I get from the output jack with a cord plugged in and DMM leads on the bare + and - wires:

NECK
Series = 10.5k
Split = 5.52k

MIDDLE
Series = 10.57k
Split = 5.49k

BRIDGE
Series = 13.57k
Split = 7.22k
This seems suspect to me and my limited know-how.. I may have a bad connection on that one, but it seems that the split should roughly be 1/2 of the series reading, like the other 2...?

I was happy that the the guitar made decent sounds and was not buzzing!!! But messing with the individual volumes is a definite pain.... not practical at all!!

sumgai

Have you adjusted the pickup heights to roughly match each other?

Actually I had not done that.... Totally looked over that when installing that one... It's not in a mounting ring, had to make something out of 3 ply pickguard material... Raised it up and wow!! There it is!! 

newey
I would appreciate anything you can send me!! And thanks for any time you spend on it!! I feel pretty good so far with my primitive soldering skills, joints don't look good but they don't look bad!! I'll get better on the next pass..
Could you try and utilize the parts I currently have as opposed to buying anything else right now? I'm already way more into this than I wanted to be....

How about..
3-way toggle switch - N/N+B/B, just as with any HH LP-style guitar.

First knob - Master volume for N+B / Push/Pull=Coil Split N+B

Second Knob - Middle Volume / Push/Pull=on/off Middle Pickup

Third Knob - / Push/Pull=

I do have a 47cap laying around, but not really seeing a use for a tone control after giving it some thought... Never use it anyways.....

Thanks, and looking forward to getting into it!!!!

[newey]

Jan 6, 2022 19:43:36 GMT -5 needmorefingers said:

BRIDGE
Series = 13.57k
Split = 7.22k
This seems suspect to me and my limited know-how.. I may have a bad connection on that one, but it seems that the split should roughly be 1/2 of the series reading, like the other 2...?

I'd say it's close enough, within a margin of error. The split will only be exactly half if the 2 coils are identical, and there are always manufacturing variances.

Let me take a look at a diagram, real life work intrudes at the moment. You know, the kind that pays the bills . . .

[needmorefingers]

Thanks newey!! I totally understand the life that has to pay bills, too bad we missed out on that powerball the other day....!!! 

Coil variance makes sense, didn't think that each coil could be just a bit different... I'm such a noob!!!

Looking forward to see what ya come up with... I should have time this week to mess with it and let ya'll know how it goes!! Gettin better with my soldering skills and hopefully understanding the knowledge you guys all have..!! This forum is mind boggling when you go and start trying to absorb some of these topics.. Definitely alot more than I thought you could do with 'electronic wizardry' to get great sounds!!!

Thanks again!!

[newey]

needmorefingers-

Sorry for the delay, finally got some time. Sorry for the wiring spaghetti look, this could be cleaned up quite a bit and would be more legible. I omitted several of the grounds to avoid more messiness; if you are grounding to the backs of pot then all those will need to be tied together, which I haven't shown. I omitted the string ground and any pickup shield wires, too.



You had a question mark for the third pot and Push/Pull. I made the pot a N and B tone pot. The middle pickup has only its volume pot. The third push/pulll switch acts as a bridge blower- pull up and the 3-way toggle is disconnected and the bridge pickup goes straight to output for lead/solo stuff. However, one sort-of quirk here is that, if SW-2 is also pulled up, you'll have brideg plus middle, with the middle volume pot, so you'll sort of lose the "blower" aspect of it if both SW-3 and SW-2 are pulled.

SW-1 splits the coils for the neck and bridge HBs. For hum-cancellation when the 3-way toggle is set to the center N + B setting, SW-1 cuts the Neck HB to the opposite coil from the bridge. Also note that I had no idea which coil was the screw coil versus the slug coil on the GFS HBs, so my drawing is purely arbitrary in that regard, it may be the other way around from what I have shown. If it matters to you which coil is selected, that can be adjusted.

If you don't like the blower switch idea, I can do something else with that if you give me a clue what you want . . .

[needmorefingers]

Thanks for putting that together newey !!! I really appreciate you helping me out, and I'm hoping to get some time to wire it up and let you know how it sounds!!

The blower switch is gonna be interesting...!! If I understand you correctly, when I pull SW3 for the blower, if SW2 is also pulled (middle pup ON), the bridge pup will bypass straight to the output with no volume control, but the middle will still be in the loop with it's volume control..? That will be ok with me, I can always just turn the middle OFF when going for a hot bridge attack!!

Also note that I had no idea which coil was the screw coil versus the slug coil on the GFS HBs, so my drawing is purely arbitrary in that regard,

When I first got these I was dumbfounded because they didn't match up to what they said the GFS wiring config was...? After using a compass and the DMM, I came to the conclusion the GFS's are wired standard Seymore Duncan style.
Pickup Color Code Chart


Dragonfire blade results seemed odd to me, but I don't know about the RWRP thing for middle pickups...

Here's the results I got..

(Magnet orientation from top of neck pup to bottom of bridge= N/S-S/N-S/N)

NECK
(SLUG) North Start = Black +
(SLUG) North Finish = White -
(SCREW) South Finish = Red +
(SCREW) South Start = Green - 

MIDDLE
(SCREW) South Start = White +
(SCREW) South Finish = Black -
(SLUG) North Finish = Green +
(SLUG) North Start = Red -

BRIDGE
(SCREW) South Start = Green -
(SCREW) South Finish = Red +
(SLUG) North Finish = White -
(SLUG) North Start = Black +


If this changes any of your diagram, I would have no idea at this point!!!  Unfortunately I'm still soo noob that I didn't even understand the slug/screw thing until I looked more into it...!!

I thought about asking for a series/parallel setup on SW3, but after listening to some demos I don't really see much point... I'd like to try and attempt a diagram myself for it, just to see if I'm learning things correctly.. But I'm just itching to play this thing and ready to get it DONE!!

I have to work midnights this weekend, then I get to perform my civil duty and go to jury duty next week!!! Gonna try and get to this soon... I'll try and clean up your spaghetti and redraw it in paint... It will help me understand it better too when I'm following the circuits!!

Thanks again for all your help and I'll post some results soon! Have a great weekend!!

[newey]

If I understand you correctly, when I pull SW3 for the blower, if SW2 is also pulled (middle pup ON), the bridge pup will bypass straight to the output with no volume control, but the middle will still be in the loop with it's volume control..? That will be ok with me, I can always just turn the middle OFF when going for a hot bridge attack!

Correct. to get the bridge by itself with the blower switch, SW-2 must be down/off.

I was assuming the wire colors matched SD's, I've used GFS pickups a lot over the years. As shown on the diagram, I do have the coils bass ackwards . . . . But as shown, SW-1 cuts the Bridge HB to the red/green screw coil, and the Neck HB to the black/white slug coil.

If you want it the other way around, simply swap the + and - wires on SW-1., bottom-most wires as shown on the diagram. If you care whether you get inner coils versus outer coils, rotate one HB 180°.

Dragonfire blade results seemed odd to me, but I don't know about the RWRP thing for middle pickups...

It's a humbucker. It has one of each type of coil, one RWRP, one not. When combined with the neck or bridge single coils, it will be partially hum-cancelling (3 coils operating, since the middle is not split). With both HBs split and both "on" (center position on 3-way toggle), together with the middle, it should be fully hum-cancelling (or close to it).

I'd like to try and attempt a diagram myself for it, just to see if I'm learning things correctly.. But I'm just itching to play this thing and ready to get it DONE!!

The desire to get it done and playable is great, but haste is counter-productive with a fairly complex wiring as here. "Done" isn't the same as "Done right". Take your time, check each step. Wire things in a modular fashion before stringing the modules together, testing each bit as you go along. As reTrEaD is found of saying, "Patience is a virgin . . .".

I'll try and clean up your spaghetti and redraw it in paint... It will help me understand it better too when I'm following the circuits!!

Yes, a highly recommended course of action for exactly that reason. Also, I'm pretty sure of my diagram, but since no one else has vetted it yet, a redraw may spot up an issue (or three).

[sumgai]

I'll second newey's diagram, with one proviso - turning down either Vol pot to zero will kill all signal. Not really a problem, what with a separate Middle pup switch, but if one turns that switch on, and turns down the Middle Vol pot to near zero, then undesirable things will happen to the remaining two pups. And turning down the Master Vol pot most of the way (or all of the way to zero) in order to have Mid only, that's also going to send one's Mojo Tone® sideways.

To overcome this (if desired), wiring the Vol pots "backwards" will be necessary.

HTH



sumgai

[needmorefingers]

Thanks newey and sumgai!!

Newey, I get what you’re saying about reversing the + & - on bottom of SW-1.. I’ll just have to wire it up n see how she sounds!!

Sumgai, I got a question regarding what you said.. “To overcome this (if desired), wiring the Vol pots "backwards" will be necessary.” How would I do that..? And please excuse my “new to all this stuff” questions, especially if that is a pretty common thing to do..

You guys have been a great help! Now I just need to escape from real life for a bit to have some fun!! But dang it the real life pays the bills for the fun!!! Never ending circle…

(and I sent this from my phone, hope it comes thru ok)

[newey]

Jan 15, 2022 1:44:57 GMT -5 needmorefingers said:

wiring the Vol pots "backwards" will be necessary.” How would I do that..?

First off, recognize that I have shown the pots upside down, as you would be soldering them, so the following applies to the pots in that orientation. Instead of wiring the input to the pot to the left-hand lug and the wiper to the output, swap those two connections such that the input goes to the wiper and the output to the left-hand lug.

As the old saying goes, however: "There is no such thing as a free lunch". IOW, doing so creates its own issues, mainly that turning both volumes all the way down will not kill all sound- most of it, but not all.

[reTrEaD]

Jan 15, 2022 8:02:16 GMT -5 newey said:

As the old saying goes, however: "There is no such thing as a free lunch". IOW, doing so creates its own issues, mainly that turning both volumes all the way down will not kill all sound- most of it, but not all.

In my humble opinion, the main issue with wiring a pot backwards is that a volume pot will act as a massive toneSUCK long before it has any appreciable effect on the volume unless another pickup is also selected.

Some guys suggest wiring volume pots backward in guitars that have multiple volume controls. I suggest using the pots judiciously to affect the blend and using switches to remove a pickup completely from the mix. (I also suggest linear volume pots in guitars with multiple volume controls, as Gibson does in their LPs.)


Some guys suggest toe amputation when a person's shoes are too tight. I suggest larger shoes.




YMMV

[sumgai]

Jan 15, 2022 8:02:16 GMT -5 newey said:

As the old saying goes, however: "There is no such thing as a free lunch". IOW, doing so creates its own issues, mainly that turning both volumes all the way down will not kill all sound- most of it, but not all.

Not quite. A 'backwards' control puts the pup(hot) on the wiper, yes? Then what do you suppose happens when the wiper is turned down to zero? That's right, the pickup is shorted completely, and thus no tone will escape out of the guitar to the amp (or pedals).

Jan 15, 2022 9:39:37 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

In my humble opinion, the main issue with wiring a pot backwards is that a volume pot will act as a massive toneSUCK long before it has any appreciable effect on the volume unless another pickup is also selected.

Define massive. Gibson has been doing this for 8 decades, and players are still buying their products in droves, despite the unjustified higher cost, and importantly for this discussion, despite the tonesuck (which is a true thing). How much tone suck is going on (or more correctly, how much is acceptable), that's up to the player*.

Some guys suggest wiring volume pots backward in guitars that have multiple volume controls. I suggest using the pots judiciously to affect the blend and using switches to remove a pickup completely from the mix. (I also suggest linear volume pots in guitars with multiple volume controls, as Gibson does in their LPs.)

I suggest that one learn to not turn any volume control down to zero when faced with a multiple volume pot axe. Unless there are no pickup selecting switches whatsoever, but those are mighty few and far between. My money is on 99.9999% of all guitars having some kind of switching scheme.

Fortunately for nmf, he inserted a switch into the Middle pup signal path, so his potential problems are greatly reduced.  (I'm assuming that he put the switch in there because he intends to use it, emphasis on 'assumption'.)


HTH




sumgai

* Dislaimer: I am not qualified to give an opinion on the tonal qualities of any Humbucker pickup, as I have never owned a guitar with such things installed - I prefer to own and play single-coil equipped guitars.

[reTrEaD]

Jan 15, 2022 14:17:22 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Define massive.

When turning the volume knob CCW, it sounds like the tone has been rolled fully CCW long before the volume is reduced to half of full volume.

I once wired a guitar using the (in)famous reverse-wiring modification on the volume controls. I wisely changed that back to normal wiring, the very next day.

Jan 15, 2022 14:17:22 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Gibson has been doing this for 8 decades,

This is patently false.

While there is at least one model (Lucille) that uses reverse-wired volume controls, virtually all other 2v2t Gibsons have their volume controls wired properly. If you don't believe me, simply go to guitarelectronics.com/original-gibson-guitar-wiring-schematics/ and view the original Gibson schematics.

The idea of modding to reverse-wiring volume pots has existed for decades but has recently been popularized by a Dirk Wacker article. The fact that Wacker recommends it, should be a red flag for any sensible person.

To the best of my knowledge, there has NEVER been a LP or SG model with reverse-wired volume controls from the factory.

Jan 15, 2022 14:17:22 GMT -5 sumgai said:

* Dislaimer: I am not qualified to give an opinion on the tonal qualities of any Humbucker pickup, as I have never owned a guitar with such things installed - I prefer to own and play single-coil equipped guitars.

That explains a lot about your misconception regarding Gibson wiring.

In keeping with my previous shoe theme ...

I own athletic shoes. I own oxfords. I wear the shoes appropriate to my activity at the particular time.

[needmorefingers]

Thanks guys for all your input! I'm enjoying reading your comments absorbing all your suggestions!

After thinking this thru some more (again!! ), maybe a volume on the middle pickup wouldn't be the best solution for that knob... Using the push/pull for on/off functionality would still be beneficial, but maybe there is another function I can use that knob for other than a tone for the middle..? 

Any ideas on what other function I could use it for? 

Thanks again for all your help!!!

[sumgai]

reTrEaD,


I'll not be engaging with you in a pissing contest. You should take that as my mileage has varied quite a bit.




sumgai

[newey]

Jan 15, 2022 16:52:41 GMT -5 needmorefingers said:

After thinking this thru some more (again!! ), maybe a volume on the middle pickup wouldn't be the best solution for that knob... Using the push/pull for on/off functionality would still be beneficial, but maybe there is another function I can use that knob for other than a tone for the middle..? 

Well, first off, don't left us put you off what you want to do. There is no inherent issue with the middle volume, just a few quirks as we have discussed. Using a linear pot, as RT suggested, will help some. I'd wire it forwards, as shown on the diagram.

If you don't want the middle volume, you could have no volume at all on the middle and the other pot can become a master volume instead of just neck/bridge. The third pot (and P/P) could then be replaced by a toggle switch for the middle pickup- easier to manipulate than a push/pull anyway.

The third pot could also be repurposed as a phase switch if you like. Your choice of which pickup it controls.

[ashcatlt]

Jan 6, 2022 19:43:36 GMT -5 needmorefingers said:

BRIDGE
Series = 13.57k
Split = 7.22k

I know y’all have moved on, but I had the idea that this might be partly because of the V pot in parallel while taking readings. That would tend to affect the value that is closer to the pot value more. Running the math with these numbers and a 250K pot, I get actual values of 14.3 for the HB and 7.2 for the split, which is much closer than half. Neither is even close to the 16K and 8K from the first post, but I’m probably missing something there.

[newey]

Jan 15, 2022 18:00:38 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

I know y’all have moved on, but I had the idea that this might be partly because of the V pot in parallel while taking readings.

Good point, I had forgotten he said he read that at the jack.

[Yogi B]

Jan 15, 2022 16:50:33 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

The idea of modding to reverse-wiring volume pots has existed for decades

And yet you think that, somehow, over the years Gibson have managed to be either completely ignorant of this desire, or have remained immune to putting silly wiring in their guitars.

To the best of my knowledge, there has NEVER been a LP or SG model with reverse-wired volume controls from the factory.

You should go back and reread the OP:

Jan 4, 2022 22:32:38 GMT -5 needmorefingers said:

I'm looking to have 3 individual volumes ... Kind of like a "Mickey Baker" wiring but a master volume instead of master tone... Mickey Baker Guitar

The 3V+1T Mickey Baker LP wiring is the same as also employed by another Gibson guitar: the ES-5. (The 3V+3T ES-5 Switchmaster has independent volumes too.)

But with the specific limitation of LPs with 2V+2T setups: another, worse, example is (at least one version of) Gibson's recreations of Peter Frampton's "Phenix". The lower V+T are connected directly to the middle pickup, the upper V+T go to the bridge/neck via the 3-way toggle. The volumes are reverse wired, but (undermining the single possible advantage that independent wiring could give) each also has a 1 nF treble bleed cap across it (which, if rolling one of the volumes completely off, becomes parallel with the remaining output).

But maybe that's also discounted, it's not a typical LP — it has three pickups, so something must give in order to function well enough with only the typical control layout. Fine, I'll also assume that there need be only two pickups. And, while I'm at it, I'll also disqualify Thunderbirds (and some versions of Les Paul basses) that use independent volumes owing to their lack of a toggle switch.

In that case (and going back to the list of schematics you posted earlier) I'd point in the direction of the "LP GT". No, not Gold Top, but Gran Tourismo / Grand Tourer — albeit more in the corrupted sense of a hot rod (complete with flames), rather than a proper GT. The LP GT commits the same offenses as the Frampton model (though with a 220 kΩ resistor mixed into the treble bleed for good measure).

Nevertheless, all the above do fall within the minority of exceptions — and I agree that Gibson have not been using independent wiring on the regular for the past eight decades.

I once wired a guitar using the (in)famous reverse-wiring modification on the volume controls. I wisely changed that back to normal wiring, the very next day.

I've done similar, and (although it was a while ago and my memory of it is a little hazy) strangely the main thing I can recall isn't the excessive treble roll off, or the almost unusable taper, but the noise (including bleed-through from the deselected pickup) that occurs due to leaving the output floating 500 kΩ away from ground when muting one pickup.

---

Jan 15, 2022 18:00:38 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

Jan 6, 2022 19:43:36 GMT -5 needmorefingers said:

BRIDGE
Series = 13.57k
Split = 7.22k

I know y’all have moved on, but I had the idea that this might be partly because of the V pot in parallel while taking readings. That would tend to affect the value that is closer to the pot value more. Running the math with these numbers and a 250K pot, I get actual values of 14.3 for the HB and 7.2 for the split, which is much closer than half. Neither is even close to the 16K and 8K from the first post, but I’m probably missing something there.

Something like the fact that even when muting their respective pickups the other two pots are also still loading the remaining pickup! (Thus, including the master volume, there's a total of four pots in parallel with each reading.) That being said, the required combined parallel resistance of all the pots still varies between about 100 kΩ and 70 kΩ, depending on which set of readings you're looking at.

[sumgai]

Jan 16, 2022 9:41:19 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

.... each also has a 1 nF treble bleed cap across it (which, if rolling one of the volumes completely off, becomes parallel with the remaining output).

Good catch, Yogi.

Since Les himself was predominantly a jazz player, it's likely that the additional drain on the higher frequencies was probably seen as a feature, not as a bug.

It might be interesting to plot a graph of the frequency response, juxtaposing the "grounded" cap of the shut-off pickup versus the treble bleed of the remaining pup allowing higher frequencies through (when that pup's vol pot is turned down a slight amount). It's more complex than a simple cancellation of each other, what with the pot's resistance involved.





sumgai

[needmorefingers]

Hello all!!

I did spend a large amount of time searching the net for a 3HB 3knob diagram before I found the Mickey Baker resource.. After reading all of your comments and doing more research, I’m definitely against a separate volume for the middle pickup..

I can see that layout working for someone in a jazz setup, that guitar sound on ‘Love Is Strange” is pretty sweet! BUT, that’s not what I’m going for.. And volume knob fiddling between pups was as bad as doing the pedal dance when playing live!!

I had an idea for the middle pup to throw past you guys and please shoot it down if it’s insane.. what about using SW-2 as an on/off for the push/pull, and use the pot itself to ‘blend’ the middle coils..? Basically full CW would be the ‘S’ coil, and full CCW would be the ‘N’ coil.. Since I don’t have a center detent, I could try to figure out where exact center was and that would be full HB…?? Does that sound practical or just plain goofy…?  My pots are all 500k linear push/pulls..

If that’s plausible, here’s what I’d like to try..
SW-1= Master Volume (N/M/B), push/pull split N+B
SW-2= Middle coil blend, push/pull on/off
SW-3= Tone for N/B only, push/pull blower for bridge pup

I just found out I’m forced out on midnights till Friday so I’m not going to have much time to play with the iron.. I will have some time to hand draw some sketches while I wait for my 12 hr shifts to end..🙄 Plus this will help me understand some of the basic circuits and such..

Thank you all again for all your help and wisdom! I’m so glad I found this forum, and you guys have really helped me understand the basics of what I’m trying to do..!!

And thanks for being nice to the noob!!🤓