HSH 3 push pull pots

[oettam]

Hello everyone
I’m a newbie and started having fun with little rewiring projects. I found this great forum and learnt a lot. I’m hoping some enthusiasts can help me with some ideas.

I have now a strat HSH and have 3 push pull pots I can use. I’ve seen many diagrams online but no one really matches this setup and/or my tastes.
I’m considering a phase reverse option but was also considering coil splitting as well as separate volumes or using 3 pickups together

Considering I might sacrifice a tone pot (having a single tube control for all), can I wire the two humbuckers separately to 2 volume pots (one together with the middle pick-up), using push pull for phase reverse. Then going into the switch, and from there to the tone control which could act also as coil splitting control?

However one phase reverse would be enough so perhaps I one pot could act to allow more pick-up configurations?

Any thoughts? Asking too much?

[newey]

oettam-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

Feb 21, 2022 17:40:31 GMT -5 oettam said:

Considering I might sacrifice a tone pot (having a single tube control for all), can I wire the two humbuckers separately to 2 volume pots (one together with the middle pick-up)

While this can be done, a Master tone pot after 2 volumes will cause interaction of the pots. This can be minimized by using a dual-gang pot for the master tone, wiring each gang of the pot for the bridge and neck/middle respectively- just like a 2 V 2T LP or SG is wired. You'll still have some interaction when both pickups are on, but it'll work like the controls on an LP, just with a single shaft for the tone instead of 2. Dual gang pots are now also available as push/pull pots. But if you already have the 3 pots and don't want to buy more parts, I'd rethink the 2-volume idea.

One phase switch is plenty to my mind. You would need 2 phase switches, however, to get all 3 out-of-phase sounds from 3 pickups. The best OOP sound will probably be the 2 HBs (because farther apart from one another), so if it were me, I'd put the single phase switch on either the N or B HB if the guitar is going to be wired for the N + B combo. If it's going to be wired like a regular Strat, without the N + B combo, then it would make more sense to put the phase switch on the middle pickup so as to give you both possible OOP sounds with the regular Strat wiring (N + (- M) and (-M) + B).

For more Pickup options, consider the following:

1 Push/pull switch for coil splitting both HBs simultaneously. The switch will split to one N coil and the other S coil for humbucking when in single-coil mode with both pickups on. The pot can be Vol or tone, your choice.

1 Push/Pull switch for phase reversal on either the neck HB or the bridge HB, your choice.

1 push/pull to turn the neck pickup (or bridge pickup, again, your choice) "on" regardless of the 5-way switch. Pulled up, this will give you 5-way selections of:

1) Bridge + Neck
2) Bridge + Middle + Neck
3) Middle + Neck
4) Middle + Neck
5) Neck

So, you'd have all seven combos of the 3 pickups (not counting OOP and coil cuts).

I'd wire the pots for a Neck/mid tone and a separate bridge tone control, with a master volume. But that's just me, there are other options.

[oettam]

Wow, thanks for the detailed answer. I knew I would have found some interesting thoughts here.
I like your suggestion. I’m just curious as to why some configurations can lead to pots interacting. Any simple explanation for that?
In the meantime, I’ll try to come up with a diagram for this but it’s going to be challenging, it’ll take me ages but it’s a nice challenge to keep me busy 😂. Any iPad app that can help with sketching the diagram?

[oettam]

How about one single volume and one single tone and use the third pot to control and turn on the N HB bypassing the switch (when pot is down) or the B HB (when pot is up)?

Do you have an example of push pull or a volume pot used independently from the switch to turn on a pick-up? I don’t think I’ve ever seen a diagram for that

[stevewf]

Feb 21, 2022 20:53:21 GMT -5 newey said:

Feb 21, 2022 17:40:31 GMT -5 oettam said:

Considering I might sacrifice a tone pot (having a single tube control for all), can I wire the two humbuckers separately to 2 volume pots (one together with the middle pick-up)

While this can be done, a Master tone pot after 2 volumes will cause interaction of the pots.

Hmmm. Wait, I think oettam must have meant "having a single tone control for all".

Sorry, I'm not fast at making schematics and wiring diagrams to illustrate, but newey, if that Master tone pot is located schematically "last", i.e. next to the output jack, would it not be clear of any meaningful interaction with the other controls? On the other hand, if there's to be separate tone controls, then more than one pot (including a two-gang) would be needed.

If not, I've got some re-learning to do... which is not out of the question!

[oettam]

Yes indeed I meant a single tone for all

I came up with this. Not sure if it could work. And sorry it’s horrible I hope you understand

[newey]

Feb 22, 2022 17:57:12 GMT -5 stevewf said:

but newey, if that Master tone pot is located schematically "last", i.e. next to the output jack, would it not be clear of any meaningful interaction with the other controls? On the other hand, if there's to be separate tone controls, then more than one pot (including a two-gang) would be needed.

Ever play a Jazz Bass that has the 2 volumes and a single tone?

The interaction occurs when you have both pickups selected. When that is the case, all three pots are in parallel. On a JB, there's no pickup selector, so it's always a problem. With a pickup selector switch as here, it's only an issue with both pups selected.

With both selected, if you have both volume pots at "10", the tone control works OK. But if one or the other volume is turned down a bit, then turning the master tone starts to cut volume of both pickups as well as cutting the highs. This can result in much fiddling with knobs.

With a dual gang tone pot, it's wired just like an LP with dual V and T controls. The tone pots are wired before the volumes, rather than between the volumes and output. There is still some interaction when both pickups are on- turning down one volume to zero cuts all output. But it's less of a problem, and those who prefer to play with a 10-pound LP over their shoulder rather than a nice ergonomically-designed Strat seem to coexist peacefully with their dual controls.

[newey]

Feb 22, 2022 19:22:17 GMT -5 oettam said:

Yes indeed I meant a single tone for all

I came up with this. Not sure if it could work. And sorry it’s horrible I hope you understand

You asked "any use" for the second pole of the 5-way switch and for the other pole of the P/P. You can use the second pole of the 5-way switch to take the extra pot out of the circuit when only the bridge pickup is selected. That will help some as that pot won't be loading the circuit when not in use.

Haven't had the chance to check your diagram yet, I'll do so later today.

[stevewf]

Feb 23, 2022 6:49:06 GMT -5 newey said:

Feb 22, 2022 17:57:12 GMT -5 stevewf said:

but newey, if that Master tone pot is located schematically "last", i.e. next to the output jack, would it not be clear of any meaningful interaction with the other controls? On the other hand, if there's to be separate tone controls, then more than one pot (including a two-gang) would be needed.

Ever play a Jazz Bass that has the 2 volumes and a single tone?

The interaction occurs when you have both pickups selected. When that is the case, all three pots are in parallel. On a JB, there's no pickup selector, so it's always a problem. With a pickup selector switch as here, it's only an issue with both pups selected.

With both selected, if you have both volume pots at "10", the tone control works OK. But if one or the other volume is turned down a bit, then turning the master tone starts to cut volume of both pickups as well as cutting the highs. This can result in much fiddling with knobs.

With a dual gang tone pot, it's wired just like an LP with dual V and T controls. The tone pots are wired before the volumes, rather than between the volumes and output. There is still some interaction when both pickups are on- turning down one volume to zero cuts all output. But it's less of a problem, and those who prefer to play with a 10-pound LP over their shoulder rather than a nice ergonomically-designed Strat seem to coexist peacefully with their dual controls.

Thanks, newey. Nope, no JB, which explains my ignorance there. Gotta say, I'm still scratching my head over the interaction between the T and V controls. Not meant to elicit a response on this; when I fetch a diagram of the factory JB, it'll make sense to me, I'm sure.

And, on my Less-Paul (not as heavy as my White Fake-on, btw), I wire the Vol pots "sideways" with the pickup swapped to the middle lug; this was to prevent the Zero-Cuts-All, but surely there's some other fallout. Perhaps not for this thread. However, the guitar's Master T-cut (a shunt to ground via pot in series with cap) taps the signal after the Vol pots, and I never noticed an interaction with Vol. Maybe because of the way I wire the Vol pots. Again, I'll get that diagram when time permits.

[Edit] For clarity, I should have said "the guitar's Master T-cut ... taps the signal after the pickup selector switch, which is after the Vol pots"

[newey]

Feb 24, 2022 4:58:04 GMT -5 stevewf said:

I wire the Vol pots "sideways" with the pickup swapped to the middle lug; this was to prevent the Zero-Cuts-All,

This is effectively the same as the "'50's wiring". Yes, it solves the "cut off" problem, but creates the interaction we were speaking about. You can go down the rabbit hole on the LP forums reading why people are pro or con the '50's wiring- it's a passionate debate in which no one changes anyone's mind.

As usual, our JohnH has the goods on the modern vs. '50's wiring:

[stevewf]

Feb 24, 2022 6:32:22 GMT -5 newey said:

Feb 24, 2022 4:58:04 GMT -5 stevewf said:

I wire the Vol pots "sideways" with the pickup swapped to the middle lug; this was to prevent the Zero-Cuts-All,

This is effectively the same as the "'50's wiring". Yes, it solves the "cut off" problem, but creates the interaction we were speaking about. You can go down the rabbit hole on the LP forums reading why people are pro or con the '50's wiring- it's a passionate debate in which no one changes anyone's mind.

As usual, our JohnH has the goods on the modern vs. '50's wiring:

(Hoping to avoid a thread hijack, but this might pertain anyway, since the OP is choosing schemes)

[stevewf clicks over to the "modern vs '50's wiring thread... plugs in LP and twiddles knobs... ] and finds that the Master T-cut does indeed* cause precipitous volume drop and tone darkening when both Vol pots are turned down from 10. However, the effect is much less -- maybe even unnoticeable -- when one (or both) of the Vol pots is at 10; there, the Tone control darkens as one might predict, but doesn't lower overall Vol much.

Without 5Spicing it, my guess for this deviant behavior is again the non-standard wiring of the Vol pots on that guitar. Yes, it's similar to '50's wiring in that the Tone control is always in the circuit regardless of Vol pot position, but it differs from the schematic in JohnH's post in the swapping of lugs on the Vol pots. Note: there's also a treble bleed on each Vol pot.

*goes to show that I don't twiddle both Vol pots very often, since I never noticed it before! Makes me consider dumping the twin Vol controls, instead using a Blend control and a Master Vol control... except that I'd lose a push-pull switch, because I don't trust my modded Bourns Blend pot.

[oettam]

Feb 23, 2022 6:56:57 GMT -5 newey said:

Feb 22, 2022 19:22:17 GMT -5 oettam said:

Yes indeed I meant a single tone for all

I came up with this. Not sure if it could work. And sorry it’s horrible I hope you understand

You asked "any use" for the second pole of the 5-way switch and for the other pole of the P/P. You can use the second pole of the 5-way switch to take the extra pot out of the circuit when only the bridge pickup is selected. That will help some as that pot won't be loading the circuit when not in use.

Haven't had the chance to check your diagram yet, I'll do so later today.

Thanks, another great idea. Though honestly I’m not sure how to realise. The idea of the extra pot is to allow B+N configuration with a separate volume for either of those. Compared to what you suggested the second pot is not simply activating one pick-up but both B and N. They are activated by turning the volume. However I’m not sure my diagram works. I think I understand now the interactions that might happen with the pots and I tried to avoided it by not connecting the ground to the second pot.
What I don’t understand is the effect of having signal from the pick-up dying in a dead end compared to shorting it to ground. In both cases no signal of course but in the first you risk more interference while the second is not really achievable without inadvertently sending to ground other bits (what you called interaction between pots). Am I right?

[newey]

Feb 24, 2022 17:01:22 GMT -5 oettam said:

[tr][td class="content"][article]

What I don’t understand is the effect of having signal from the pick-up dying in a dead end compared to shorting it to ground. In both cases no signal of course but in the first you risk more interference while the second is not really achievable without inadvertently sending to ground other bits (what you called interaction between pots). Am I right?

Not sure if I follow you here. If you are asking whether there is a difference between shorting the output of a pickup to itself (on either the hot or ground side) versus leaving one or both ends disconnected, the answer is that it makes little difference. It's OK to leave one end connected to ground and it's probably OK to leave one end connected to hot (i.e., "hanging from hot"), but we try to avoid a hanging hot situation when possible because there is a theoretical prospect of some added noise.

Some folks have proposed that shorting a coil may somehow dampen the string action due to some theory about the action of the magnet, but that whole idea has never been clear to me, and any such effect would probably be negligible anyway.

Thanks, another great idea. Though honestly I’m not sure how to realise.

There are a number of possibilities. But first we need to deal with that N/B volume pot. If the goal there was to get the B + N combo, you haven't done that. The P/P switch simply switches the input to that pot from the neck pickup (when pulled up) and to the bridge pickup when pushed down. Leaving the third lug of the pot disconnected just turns it into a crappier volume control.

Were you intending to use this pot as a blend, to blend the bridge into the neck or vice versa?

Also, why do you want a 470K resistor to ground on your middle pickup?

A blend pot to add the neck to the bridge could be done. I suggested a simple neck-on switch instead, as I'm not a big fan of blenders, they're a bit fiddely to use, most of the adjustment seems to happen in a small arc of motion. But either could be done, if that's what you want.

[oettam]

Feb 24, 2022 22:08:56 GMT -5 newey said:

Feb 24, 2022 17:01:22 GMT -5 oettam said:

[tr][td class="content"][article]

What I don’t understand is the effect of having signal from the pick-up dying in a dead end compared to shorting it to ground. In both cases no signal of course but in the first you risk more interference while the second is not really achievable without inadvertently sending to ground other bits (what you called interaction between pots). Am I right?

Not sure if I follow you here. If you are asking whether there is a difference between shorting the output of a pickup to itself (on either the hot or ground side) versus leaving one or both ends disconnected, the answer is that it makes little difference. It's OK to leave one end connected to ground and it's probably OK to leave one end connected to hot (i.e., "hanging from hot"), but we try to avoid a hanging hot situation when possible because there is a theoretical prospect of some added noise.

Some folks have proposed that shorting a coil may somehow dampen the string action due to some theory about the action of the magnet, but that whole idea has never been clear to me, and any such effect would probably be negligible anyway.

Thanks, another great idea. Though honestly I’m not sure how to realise.

There are a number of possibilities. But first we need to deal with that N/B volume pot. If the goal there was to get the B + N combo, you haven't done that. The P/P switch simply switches the input to that pot from the neck pickup (when pulled up) and to the bridge pickup when pushed down. Leaving the third lug of the pot disconnected just turns it into a crappier volume control.

Were you intending to use this pot as a blend, to blend the bridge into the neck or vice versa?

Also, why do you want a 470K resistor to ground on your middle pickup?

A blend pot to add the neck to the bridge could be done. I suggested a simple neck-on switch instead, as I'm not a big fan of blenders, they're a bit fiddely to use, most of the adjustment seems to happen in a small arc of motion. But either could be done, if that's what you want.

Thanks Newey. Regarding shorting, yes that’s what I meant and your explanation makes sense

Regarding my second pot I feared I might have messed up something. I still think it would be similar to a blender (and yes that’s basically what I would like now that you say it). It is also a volume control but it should be independent from the switch.
But I think now I know what you mean. Will send you an update trying to implement a proper blender, let’s see if I can make it

[oettam]

Here is the new diagram I came up with to follow Newey’s suggestion to have N+B while keeping some control on the level of this blend. Not sure this is really a blender is done with a P-P pot but it was fun trying

[newey]

oettam-

I think that will work, but let's get another set of eyes on it before you start wiring.

However, the way you show it now, the blender will be active when pushed in. I would think you would want to have the blender active when pulled up instead, IOW, the configuration you will use most should be the pushed in position. This is easily changed if desired, just swap the lower lug of the P/P switch to the upper lug.

[Deleted]

looks ok to me...


-----


if you want some thing with the other side of the 5 way, you can change it so that.

Call the side your using ALPHA and the one your not BETA

Alpha 1 to Beta 5 and Alpha 5 to Beta 1
Beta 0 to Switch Point C
Switch Point B to Lug 1
Lug 2 to Alpha 0

1)N+(Blend B)
2)N+M+(Blend B)
3)M
4)M+B+(Blend N)
5)B+(Blend N)

[oettam]

Wow cool! Thanks so much. Will make this final change and start!
I just hope my poor skills of soldering won’t make things too messy. I wired before a simple tele and two active HB EMG. In both cases had to do it twice as the first time I messed up something (some ground connection I think) and the result was that I was losing almost completely the high e and in general high frequencies. I thought it has to do with me being messy with cables and weak ground connections but not sure. After doing it again it got better but I added also a treble bleed

Might be worth adding a treble bleed circuit here? Could this be more needed when there are a lot of components?

[Deleted]

Treble Bleed
what type is up to you..

you can Free up a 2P2T by cutting one side of the Pot Wafer


therefor making a Dead Spot
Lug 1 Input, Lug 2 Output, Lug 3 Not Connected
so as Lug 1 and Lug 2 Resistance increase up to near the max it then Clicks over the CUT part and blanks out
(best to cut just before the silver on the Round track part.
----------------------
and once down the rabbit hole there

[oettam]

Finally found some time to wire this. I’m very happy with the result. It’s amazing. I can do so many sounds. Thanks a lot for your help
The only issue is that one pot is not really used when it’s pushed down.
Also the middle pick-up seems to be out of phase with the humbuckers. I can switch phase for one HB but not got the other. Is there another way of having a phase switch that would work on both HB separately. I was thinking of using the second (partly unused) pot, leaving it always on as a blender and use its switches instead for another phase switch

[newey]

Also the middle pick-up seems to be out of phase with the humbuckers. I can switch phase for one HB but not got the other. Is there another way of having a phase switch that would work on both HB separately. I was thinking of using the second (partly unused) pot, leaving it always on as a blender and use its switches instead for another phase switch

Your phase switch puts the neck pickup OOP. So, when the middle pickup is combined with the neck, does the phase switch switch it OOP or not?

Since the bridge pickup is not put OOP with the current scheme, the Bridge + middle position should sound in phase at all times. If it does not, then the middle pickup would seem to be OOP. If so, this can be corrected by swapping the middle pickups 2 wires around.

If that's not what you mean, then I'm unclear on what is going on with your sound there.

You can't use the unused half of the blender push/pull switch as a second phase switch because a phase switch requires the use of both poles of the push/pull switch, just like your current phase switch does.

[Deleted]

Could they do as I suggest cutting one side of the pot to make a off position and there for freeing a 2P2T

[oettam]

yes, indeed, what happened is that I have wired not exactly that diagram but I have swapped neck and bridge HB but that is fine. The two HB work as I expect (in phase normally or OOP when one pot is up) but for some reason, the middle pickup is always OOP (or in phase with one HB but never in phase with all).

I think what happened is that my single coil middle pickup is swapped (either I wired it wrongly or I did not interpret the colours of the wire correctly). one easy solution is to swap it again however it would be even better if I can instead implement a separate OOP switch for the other HB (so that both HB have OOP option and I am free to do any possible combination) 

I think I understand now angellahash's suggestion (wasn't sure about it before and was unsure how to cut the wafer), great idea, this will indeed free a 2P2T for another OOP, will look into it.

Thanks both!

another last modification I am thinking about is, to avoid the volume drop in the OOP, to do OOP in series (or more in general a series/parallel switch for one position) instead but have not found a simple way of wiring it yet

[jhng]

Apr 5, 2022 16:07:03 GMT -5 oettam said:

another last modification I am thinking about is, to avoid the volume drop in the OOP, to do OOP in series (or more in general a series/parallel switch for one position) instead but have not found a simple way of wiring it yet

One option you could consider would be to change your phase switch so that instead of being a normal phase switch it switches the Neck pickup phase AND puts that pickup in series with everything else. So you would basically have two modes:

Normal:

1. N
2. N+M
3. M
4. M+B
5. B

Series out of phase:

1. N
2. N
3. MxN (OOP)
4. (M+B)xN (OOP)
5. BxN(OOP)

It might be necessary to tweak the wiring of the blender and coil-split switches in order to integrate it properly. However, it should be doable. (On a normal strat you can even do this mod with a SPDT, providing you don't mind having a dead-spot in positions 1 and 2.)

[oettam]

Thanks jhng. I will try to come up with a diagram for the OOP with series option. Good idea

For the moment I’ve updated the diagram with the cut wafer, here the result (edited, sorry forgot to upload it earlier)