HSS with Megaswitch-E and DPDT on/on/on

[donfra]

Hi All!

New to forum and pardon if not in the right area.  I've read all of the forum rules, notes, FAQ's, etc, but just in case, feel free to move thread and chastise as needed.

I've searched through here, Google, other forums, etc, and have not found what I have needed (or didn't understand).  So, posting this to get input, helps, and/or any other advices.

What I have is a "strat-esque" model of guitar with 3 SC's, a SPDT switch (for Gilmour Mod), and recently added 500K pots.  I am wanting to add a Single-Humbucker to the bridge, the Megaswitch-E switch, and a DPDT on/on/on switch. I like what options the Megaswitch-E gives me and am wondering what other options I will get with the DPDT switch. Currently, I have the Center On basically doing just the normal wiring as if there was no switch, Up doing a Full humbucker mode, and Down doing a split humbucker mode....I think.  Below is a pic of my proposed diagram.  

Questions are:
1 - does this wiring look correct?
2 - if so, will it be like I think and do what I say?
3 - if not, what will it do?
4 - what other options are there?  Wire the bridge for full humbucker and as a blower switch for solos?

I don't really want to purchase more parts and/or drill more holes, so wanting to work with what I have.  Appreciate any and all advice!

[Yogi B]

May 6, 2022 16:33:27 GMT -5 donfra said:

1 - does this wiring look correct?

Unfortunately not, no.

2 - if so, will it be like I think and do what I say?

I should be skipping to three, but I like the notion that the wiring could be correct, yet still doesn't do what you want. I suppose we could say something like the typical Les Paul wiring is still 'correct' even though entirely unsuitable to your requirements, but then we have the idea that correctness is inherent to a specific scheme. However, I don't know what other criteria we could use other than does what the designer says it should.

I like what options the Megaswitch-E gives me and am wondering what other options I will get with the DPDT switch. Currently, I have the Center On basically doing just the normal wiring as if there was no switch, Up doing a Full humbucker mode, and Down doing a split humbucker mode....I think.

You're going to have to elaborate on that a bit. Since you are differentiating between "full humbucker" and "normal wiring", I assume you mean that in "full humbucker" mode the bridge wouldn't be split in positions 2 & 3. Is that correct?

3 - if not, what will it do?

The first thing I spotted is the combined neck & middle tone pot wiring. Each pair of holes per terminal are always connected, thus since both terminals 1 & 2 link to the same terminal of the tone pot you've also inadvertently permanently connected the 'hot' wires of the neck & middle pickups — thereby making impossible to select one without the other. I don't think there's a way around this that doesn't involve compromise, but I think the most logical solution would be to have it wired only to the neck pickup. This would mean it would still be selected in positions 3, 4 & 5.

Also if that is the case I personally would recommend sticking with a 250k pot for the neck tone (assuming that's what you had in the first place), rather than the 500k pot + 470k resistor combo. (To be honest I'd likely stick to 250k for all three, but modify the bridge tone to be a no-load pot.)

The bridge tone control is selected in positions 1, 2 & 3 and will function normally in the first two of those. However in position 3, whilst it will work to some degree, additionally it will blend in the north coil of the humbucker out-of-phase (normally disabled in this position) — leading to a parallel-half-out-of-phase (PHOoP) setting — more of a mid scoop sound than the usual treble cut. Yes it's a little odd, but I actually quite like the idea — it gives you an extra option in the position where two regular tone pots would otherwise double up.

Finally as you might have guessed by my asking, as-is the bridge toggle doesn't do what I think you want it to. What I said before might be possible, but I'll need to think it over (and you'll need to tell me whether that's even what you're after).

---

May 6, 2022 23:34:58 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Finally as you might have guessed by my asking, as-is the bridge toggle doesn't do what I think you want it to. What I said before might be possible, but I'll need to think it over (and you'll need to tell me whether that's even what you're after).

Having had a look, it is possible to toggle between the regular splits and full humbucker in positions 2 & 3, but that'd be be all it did (with a regular two position ON/ON DPDT). There's not anything useful that could be done in the middle position of an ON/ON/ON with that wiring.

[donfra]

Thanks for the reply and information!

I'll try and clarify and respond to your questions.  Honestly, I am not 100% sure what I am trying to achieve, so that makes it difficult for you to respond.....


"You're going to have to elaborate on that a bit. Since you are differentiating between "full humbucker" and "normal wiring", I assume you mean that in "full humbucker" mode the bridge wouldn't be split in positions 2 & 3. Is that correct?"

You are correct.  Since I don't have a normal On/Off switch, I am using my 3PDT on/on/on switch.  I figured I could wire the Center On to basically do nothing and the megaswitch would act normal.  Then, when the switch is thrown, the Bridge would not split in positions 2 & 3.

"The first thing I spotted is the combined neck & middle tone pot wiring. Each pair of holes per terminal are always connected, thus since both terminals 1 & 2 link to the same terminal of the tone pot you've also inadvertently permanently connected the 'hot' wires of the neck & middle pickups — thereby making impossible to select one without the other. I don't think there's a way around this that doesn't involve compromise, but I think the most logical solution would be to have it wired only to the neck pickup. This would mean it would still be selected in positions 3, 4 & 5."

After I posted and thought some more, I agree that I only need to wire the neck tone, since the middle pup is never used by itself.  I will also put my 250K tone pot back in as well. Less soldering and lesser confusion!

"The bridge tone control is selected in positions 1, 2 & 3 and will function normally in the first two of those. However in position 3, whilst it will work to some degree, additionally it will blend in the north coil of the humbucker out-of-phase (normally disabled in this position) — leading to a parallel-half-out-of-phase (PHOoP) setting — more of a mid scoop sound than the usual treble cut. Yes it's a little odd, but I actually quite like the idea — it gives you an extra option in the position where two regular tone pots would otherwise double up."

Ok, I'll take your word for it since I am not sure!  It would make for an interesting tone, I think.

"Having had a look, it is possible to toggle between the regular splits and full humbucker in positions 2 & 3, but that'd be be all it did (with a regular two position ON/ON DPDT). There's not anything useful that could be done in the middle position of an ON/ON/ON with that wiring."

Can this be done using the current switch and do like I mentioned, with the center basically not doing anything?  I don't think I could do it with my existing SPDT. I do have 2 other 3PDT on/on/on switches, plus the SPDT, so I could drill another hole if that would help in adding more options. Or, I could just leave the switch in and not hooked up, and call it day....

I guess what I am looking for is the most tones for my buck. Maybe full humbucker when I flip the switch one way and not get any splits on 1 & 2?  Then flip the other way and get serial/parallel/reverse/out-of-phase or whatever?

Again, I'm not 100% sure what I want, since I am not 100% sure what I can get. Since the megaswitch does some splitting and serial/parallel on its own, would wiring a switch to do that make things worse? Would wiring a switch so the bridge is full humbucker and bypasses the megaswitch for solos even worth it?

Appreciate all of the help and information.  I did find my old electronics breadboard, so maybe I can do some mockups and testing on it to see what I get.  Trying to avoid wiring things up, setting the guitar up, then having to take everything apart again....  It's been 25 years since my college digital electronics classes, so trying to remember what does what is hard on the old noodle!

[newey]

May 7, 2022 14:03:57 GMT -5 donfra said:

Since the megaswitch does some splitting and serial/parallel on its own,

The Megaswitch splits the HB at positions 2 and 3, but all the pickup combos are parallel. Or did you mean that the 2 coils of the HB are in series at Position 1?

Also, since you like the Megaswitch combos, why use the DPDT to split the HB? The Megaswitch already splits the HB in positions 2 and 3 (and, splits it to opposite coils). The only added combination the DPDT switch will give you is the split coil at position 1.

Are you keeping the Gilmore mod (neck on switch)? Or, is that hole where the DPDT is going to go?

Oh, and . . .

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

[donfra]

Hi!

You are correct about the HB split and the series/parallel modes. Sorry for the confusion.

I was replacing the Gilmore mod with the DPDT but that looks like it might be a bust. I would put the SPDT back in, but I had to drill the hole out larger and now it's a 1/16th bigger...

So, now I am looking for options if anyone has them. Would it be beneficial to do the Gilmore mod again? Could I do a solo option for the HB? Should I just have a switch that does nothing?

Thanks again and I appreciate any and all suggestions.

[newey]

May 7, 2022 20:09:09 GMT -5 donfra said:

Could I do a solo option for the HB?

That's easy enough with your DPDT. Bridge hot goes to one pole's common, that pole selects either bridge to the 5-way switch or straight out to the jack +. The second pole selects the output to be either the 5-way setting, or the bridge straight out. The center position, however, would be redundant.

You could also use the DPDT to redo the gilmour mod, you'd just use half the switch. But it would fit the new hole.

I'm trying to work my head around a way to use that center position of the DPDT On-On-On. Stay tuned. . . .

[Yogi B]

May 7, 2022 14:03:57 GMT -5 donfra said:

May 6, 2022 23:34:58 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Having had a look, it is possible to toggle between the regular splits and full humbucker in positions 2 & 3, but that'd be be all it did (with a regular two position ON/ON DPDT). There's not anything useful that could be done in the middle position of an ON/ON/ON with that wiring.

Can this be done using the current switch and do like I mentioned, with the center basically not doing anything?

I don't think so, but I did realise one option would be possible with the ON/ON/ON switch. The switching truth table would be like this:

	Toggle Switch
	Down	Centre	Up
1	BN × BS	BN × BS	BN × BS
2	(BN × BS) + M	(BN × BS) + M	BN + M
3	(BN × BS) + N	BS + N	BS + N
4	M + N	M + N	M + N
5	N	N	N

Basically in one direction, you'd get the splits of the normal switching in positions 2 & 3, and the other direction you'd have the full humbucker in both positions. With the toggle in the centre you have the spit in position 3, but the full humbucker in position 2. The centre position doesn't really get you anything new, but does mean that there wouldn't be an entirely redundant position.

...I do have 2 other 3PDT on/on/on switches...

You've mentioned 3PDT's twice in this post, but I'm doubtful that's what you mean as 3PDT toggle switches in an ON/ON/ON format are pretty rare. (Perhaps you're also thinking DP3T which is what some people wrongly call DPDT ON/ON/ON switches — the number of positions does not necessarily correlate with the number of throws.) But perhaps I'm wrong?

I guess what I am looking for is the most tones for my buck. Maybe full humbucker when I flip the switch one way and not get any splits on 1 & 2?  Then flip the other way and get serial/parallel/reverse/out-of-phase or whatever?

With a Megaswitch E, you're probably going to struggle. The non-M versions of the Megaswitch are good for providing the switching schemes they were designed for with minimal wiring, but have very limited flexibility for alternate wirings.

[newey]

I think this would work, if you're interested. But let's get another set of eyes on it first, I'm pretty sure it will work as advertised but I've been wrong way too often . . .

[Yogi B]

May 7, 2022 21:16:18 GMT -5 newey said:

I think this would work, if you're interested. But let's get another set of eyes on it first, I'm pretty sure it will work as advertised but I've been wrong way too often . . .

Ish, but not quite, and even then only kind of...

The major thing is that you'd want the centre left terminal to be the volume input, rather than directly to the output. (Also the Megaswitch terminals are numbered 1-to-7 bottom-to-top, so the correct ones are #2 for the neck & #7 for the bridge, but I know that's what you mean.)

The "neck on" and "normal" selections should work as expected (baring the bridge tone control in position 3 as previously discussed, but that's not a new problem) — the bridge 'solo' isn't quite a 'solo' though.

The volume pot should be successfully bypassed in all positions but the bridge hot & tap are still connected to (and thus influenced by) the regular switching (and also the bridge tone). As such it will indeed solo the Bridge pickup in positions 1, 4 & 5 — however, in position 2 you'll get the regular B_N + Middle + Bridge Tone just without the volume control, and in position 3 you'll get the regular selection put in series with the Bridge's North coil, i.e. ((B_S + N + Neck Tone) × B_N) + Bridge Tone.

(Additionally though the position of the volume won't control the output level, the 500k between its outer lugs will still be loading the circuit in positions 1, 2 & 3.)

I wouldn't say that the above behaviour is automatically a deal breaker, but something to be aware of.

[donfra]

Wow!  Thank you both and quite a lot to process. I think Newey's would probably be easiest to implement.  Will take in Yogi's notes and see what happens.

[donfra]

May 7, 2022 22:12:11 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

May 7, 2022 21:16:18 GMT -5 newey said:

I think this would work, if you're interested. But let's get another set of eyes on it first, I'm pretty sure it will work as advertised but I've been wrong way too often . . .

Ish, but not quite, and even then only kind of...

The major thing is that you'd want the centre left terminal to be the volume input, rather than directly to the output. (Also the Megaswitch terminals are numbered 1-to-7 bottom-to-top, so the correct ones are #2 for the neck & #7 for the bridge, but I know that's what you mean.)

The "neck on" and "normal" selections should work as expected (baring the bridge tone control in position 3 as previously discussed, but that's not a new problem) — the bridge 'solo' isn't quite a 'solo' though.

The volume pot should be successfully bypassed in all positions but the bridge hot & tap are still connected to (and thus influenced by) the regular switching (and also the bridge tone). As such it will indeed solo the Bridge pickup in positions 1, 4 & 5 — however, in position 2 you'll get the regular B_N + Middle + Bridge Tone just without the volume control, and in position 3 you'll get the regular selection put in series with the Bridge's North coil, i.e. ((B_S + N + Neck Tone) × B_N) + Bridge Tone.

(Additionally though the position of the volume won't control the output level, the 500k between its outer lugs will still be loading the circuit in positions 1, 2 & 3.)

I wouldn't say that the above behaviour is automatically a deal breaker, but something to be aware of.

So, what would the switching diagram look like for these changes? Trying to diagram it out but keep confusing myself.....

[newey]

May 8, 2022 17:46:58 GMT -5 donfra said:

Trying to diagram it out but keep confusing myself.....

Well, with Yogi B 's provisos as to the bridge in positions 2 and 3, what you'd have are as follows:

• With DPDT switch in the center position- pickups switched as per Megaswitch diagram
  
• With switch in the "up" position, Bridge solo except as noted by YogiB at 2 and 3
• With the switch "down", neck pickup is on with the 5-way selection, giving (from 1 to 5) Br HB + N, Br N Coil + Middle + neck, B + N, M + N, N

But, the more I think on this, note that your Gilmore Mod and the Megaswitch E sort of overlap each other. In a regular Strat, adding the Gilmore mod (neck on) adds 2 new sounds- all 3 pickups, yes, but the one everyone is looking for, the whole reason for the mod, is to get the N + B combo, the Tele sound. And, that's also the whole raison d'etre of the Megaswitch E- to give Strat players the N + B, at the expense of the middle pickup alone. So here, with both the neck on switch and the Megaswitch E, you're really only getting one additional sound- the Br North coil + M + N.

Yogi's scheme above is more complex but gives you potentially more bang for your buck.

[newey]

I like the idea of N + B at position 3 like on the Megaswitch E, but I couldn't live without the middle pickup by itself (I know, I'm weird . . .). So I would do this, giving me both the bridge solo switch (sort of, as Yogi noted), but also giving me the middle alone setting. Since this goes direct to output anyway, I'd lose the middle pickup tone pot and put the tone pots on the N and B pickups:

[jhng]

Hello folks,

What about this option for the DPDT (I think it works?):

One side of the DPDT takes the Neck pickup cold and moves it from signal ground to lug 6 on the switch (the Bridge 'tap').
The second side of the DPDT takes Neck pickup hot and moves it from lug 2 on the switch to signal ground

Then the DPDT should do the following:

Down - Normal Megaswitch

Centre:

1. NxBs
2. (NxBs)+M
3. Bs alone
4. Same as normal
5. Same as normal

Up:

1. Dead (for a bit of Tom Morello toggling etc)
2. Middle only
3. Bs+N (out of phase)
4. Same as normal
5. Bs+N(oop) in series with Bn

Quite a useful extra range of sounds (if I haven't fluffed it). Including 'Middle only' which it is always a shame to lose completely, given that it was a key feature of the original Strat design.

[donfra]

May 7, 2022 21:04:01 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

May 7, 2022 14:03:57 GMT -5 donfra said:

Can this be done using the current switch and do like I mentioned, with the center basically not doing anything?

I don't think so, but I did realise one option would be possible with the ON/ON/ON switch. The switching truth table would be like this:

	Toggle Switch
	Down	Centre	Up
1	BN × BS	BN × BS	BN × BS
2	(BN × BS) + M	(BN × BS) + M	BN + M
3	(BN × BS) + N	BS + N	BS + N
4	M + N	M + N	M + N
5	N	N	N

Basically in one direction, you'd get the splits of the normal switching in positions 2 & 3, and the other direction you'd have the full humbucker in both positions. With the toggle in the centre you have the spit in position 3, but the full humbucker in position 2. The centre position doesn't really get you anything new, but does mean that there wouldn't be an entirely redundant position.

...I do have 2 other 3PDT on/on/on switches...

You've mentioned 3PDT's twice in this post, but I'm doubtful that's what you mean as 3PDT toggle switches in an ON/ON/ON format are pretty rare. (Perhaps you're also thinking DP3T which is what some people wrongly call DPDT ON/ON/ON switches — the number of positions does not necessarily correlate with the number of throws.) But perhaps I'm wrong?

I guess what I am looking for is the most tones for my buck. Maybe full humbucker when I flip the switch one way and not get any splits on 1 & 2?  Then flip the other way and get serial/parallel/reverse/out-of-phase or whatever?

With a Megaswitch E, you're probably going to struggle. The non-M versions of the Megaswitch are good for providing the switching schemes they were designed for with minimal wiring, but have very limited flexibility for alternate wirings.

So, what would the switching diagram look like for this logic table?

Thanks!

[donfra]

OK - Not super fancy and modified from Newey, but I think this will work.  Let me know your thoughts!

[donfra]

OK - gotta a typo in the image, but I think you get the drift.  Damn Copy/Paste....

[Yogi B]

May 10, 2022 14:12:18 GMT -5 donfra said:

May 7, 2022 21:04:01 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

	Toggle Switch
	Down	Centre	Up
1	BN × BS	BN × BS	BN × BS
2	(BN × BS) + M	(BN × BS) + M	BN + M
3	(BN × BS) + N	BS + N	BS + N
4	M + N	M + N	M + N
5	N	N	N

So, what would the switching diagram look like for this logic table?

Something like this:

---

I've also spotted something I'd missed in your initial diagram: you have the volume control wired 'backwards', which would give poor performance in terms of both taper & treble retention. (What you show is 'independent' wiring, potentially useful when there are two volumes simultaneously controlling a circuit, but definitely a bad idea for a master volume.) The fix is swapping the two purple wires such that the wire going to the output jack comes from the middle lug of the volume.

[donfra]

May 10, 2022 23:10:14 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

May 10, 2022 14:12:18 GMT -5 donfra said:

So, what would the switching diagram look like for this logic table?

Something like this:

---

I've also spotted something I'd missed in your initial diagram: you have the volume control wired 'backwards', which would give poor performance in terms of both taper & treble retention. (What you show is 'independent' wiring, potentially useful when there are two volumes simultaneously controlling a circuit, but definitely a bad idea for a master volume.) The fix is swapping the two purple wires such that the wire going to the output jack comes from the middle lug of the volume.

Good catch! The actual wiring is correct but the drawing is not.  I wired it up and I am getting Ohm's on everything but the bridge.  I'm only getting 500k regardless of switch position.  Maybe move the bridge hot to the upper right toggle location?

Thanks!

[Yogi B]

May 11, 2022 13:54:25 GMT -5 donfra said:

I wired it up and I am getting Ohm's on everything but the bridge. I'm only getting 500k regardless of switch position.  Maybe move the bridge hot to the upper right toggle location?

That wouldn't help. Do you not have the bridge pickup grounded? The "ground" in my diagram is the 'global' ground (i.e. that connected to the output jack etc.), not just the bridge pickup's ground(s).

[donfra]

May 12, 2022 20:55:28 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

May 11, 2022 13:54:25 GMT -5 donfra said:

I wired it up and I am getting Ohm's on everything but the bridge. I'm only getting 500k regardless of switch position.  Maybe move the bridge hot to the upper right toggle location?

That wouldn't help. Do you not have the bridge pickup grounded? The "ground" in my diagram is the 'global' ground (i.e. that connected to the output jack etc.), not just the bridge pickup's ground(s).

Well, I am an idiot..thanks.. Had the bridge ground connected, had the DPDT connected to the megaswitch, all others connected. However.... I didn't connect #4 of the megaswitch to ground. Doh! Getting readings now and just have to get it all back together. Thanks again to everyone for their help!

[donfra]

So, below is what I ended up with. Sharing this for others who may be in the same boat, and for my future meanderings in case I forgot what I had done!  I basically took newey's suggestion for having the Bridge and the Middle pups with their own bypass modes depending on the DPDT switch:

- Center:  Normal operations
- Down: Bridge bypass
- Up: Middle bypass

These are, of course, influenced by the 5-way Megaswitch-E to some degree, but does give a few extra tones.

Thanks again to Yogi B and newey and all of the others that helped me on this journey!  

[donfra]

May 10, 2022 23:10:14 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

May 10, 2022 14:12:18 GMT -5 donfra said:

So, what would the switching diagram look like for this logic table?

Something like this:

---

I've also spotted something I'd missed in your initial diagram: you have the volume control wired 'backwards', which would give poor performance in terms of both taper & treble retention. (What you show is 'independent' wiring, potentially useful when there are two volumes simultaneously controlling a circuit, but definitely a bad idea for a master volume.) The fix is swapping the two purple wires such that the wire going to the output jack comes from the middle lug of the volume.

So I rewired everything to implement this switching and all works fine except when the toggle is down and megaswitch-e in position 2, everything goes dead.  No humming or any other sounds. Just silence. Not the end of the world but just strange. Any ideas?

[donfra]

So, playing around with this some more, and came up with this. Trying to get Middle or Neck in Series with the Bridge.  I am doing it before the Megaswitch-E so I am sure it will affect those tones afterwards.  Can anyone take a look and weigh in if this will work as expected?

Thanks!

[donfra]

Here's an "expanded" view of the switch as well....

[donfra]

Anyone? Anyone?

[newey]

donfra-

Sorry no one has gotten back to you on this. I'm going to have to dig out the switch logic for the Megaswitch E, and I'm off to bed at the moment. But I will get to this in a day or so.

[donfra]

I forgot to mention the DPDT positions:

Center - Normal
Up - Neck in Series with Bridge HB
Down - Muddle in Series with Bridge HB

At least that is what I think.....