Complex HSH wiring. Wiring diagram needed 10 combination

[3dlp]

Hey everyone

I have basic electrical knowledge and can handle a soldering iron, however I've never wired or re-wired a guitar before so I'm a bit apprehensive of what I should do.

Basically I would like to achieve the configuration shown in the image I have attached.

I have 2 Pearly Gates (Neck and Bridge) and 1 SSL-5 Custom Staggered Pole (Middle).

How would I wire this?.(all combinations are humbucker & I am adding Dimarzio Ep1112 5 switch + group selector -up/down position- switch)

If someone could tell me how I could wire this I would be extremely grateful!

Thanks in advance.




//edited

[newey]

3dlp

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

The Dimarzio 5-way switch looks to be the equivalent of a Superswitch, and should suffice for what you want. What type of toggle switch do you have (assuming you already have one)?

I don't know that we have a diagram to do exactly what you want here, so we'll probably have to draw something up for you. This may take some time as real work intrudes come Monday.

[Deleted]

So each one is linked in series to make them a humbucker feel to them.

[newey]

Jun 5, 2022 13:49:48 GMT -5 3dlp said:

all combinations are humbucker

With the toggle "off" (upper half of chart) positions 2 and 3 split the neck pickup top coil with either coil of the bridge HB. Both those positions cannot be hum-cancelling; if 2 is hum-cancelling then 3 will not be, and vice versa.

[JohnH]

Also, should consider whether each setting is a series or a parallel connection of coils. Most guitars will hav series wiring between two coils of a pickup, and parallel for combinations between pickups. But you can chose, or you could have a switch that converts series to parallel

[Deleted]

Hmm looks like a binary countdown, but some are in the wrong order.

If can change the order might be able to do it. Because at the moment the way I got it played in my head I'd need a 8P5T because of the order and I'm not sure what I got for the toggle

_-----
Maybe make it easier
Number them 1..5 top..bottom
1) 1&2, 2) 1&3, 3) 1&4, 4) 1&5, 5) 2&3
1) 4&5, 2) 3&5, 3) 3&4, 4) 2&5, 5) 2&4
So up the string and then back down the string. Might save a few poles , because the input can be static bar position 5

[jhng]

Hello, a quick question: how did you decide which combinations to include in your set of ten? The reason I ask is because I think that you are going to have a lot of very similar sounding combinations, presuming that they are all parallel and in phase. In Group 1, positions 2, 3 and 4 will all be quite similar. Also, positions 1 and 5 in group 1 will be very similar to positions 2 and 4 in group 2. If you want a broad range of sounds from an HSH, I think you can get a lot more bang for you buck.

There are few basic concepts when combining pickup coils:

Series / Parallel -- When two coils are in parallel, you get a light and airy, lower output sound. When they are in series, you get a thicker, higher output sound with a lower resonant peak. Your humbuckers will be wired in series by default. Multiple pickup combinations on guitars, e.g. 2 and 4 on a Strat or the middle position on a Tele, tend to be in parallel by default.

In phase / out of phase -- Coil or pickup combinations are almost always in phase, which is the default. However, a few rare guitarists do put pickups out of phase which gives a scooped/hollow sound that is weaker and more ugly (to be honest) but also very distinctive. Guitarists who do this include Brian May, who uses two pickups in series and out of phase for some lead sounds, and also Peter Green, who sometimes uses two humbuckers in parallel and out of phase.

Single coil vs multiple coils -- As you will know, single coil pickups (e.g. on a Strat) sound quite different from HBs with two coils. You can get a single coil sound from an HB by coil splitting. However, since the individual coils of an HB are often smaller than a regular single coil pickup it can be a bit weak. One option here is to partially split the HB by using a capacitor across one coil. This means that you get a sharper, single coil top-end while maintaining body below.

For your 10-combo HSH, I think you might get a more useful range of sounds by having more variation. For example:

Group 1

1. Neck HB
2. Neck (single coil) with Bridge (single coil) in series (a non-standard combination but very cool)
3. Neck HB with Bridge HB in parallel (like Les Paul middle position)
4. Middle single coil only (like Strat position 3)
5. Bridge HB

Group 2

1. Neck (coil split or partially coil split with a cap)
2. Neck (single coil) with Middle in parallel (Strat position 2)
3. Neck (single coil) with Bridge (single coil) in parallel (Tele middle position)
4. Bridge (single coil) with Middle in parallel (Strat position 4)
5. Bridge (coil split or partially coil split with a cap)

I would have thought that should all be achievable with a four-pole switch.

[3dlp]

Thank you all for taking your time to help me with this, I am very grateful ! 

- Angella thank you very much, I was looking for this distribution to have a gradual sonority from neck to bridge.

Surely some combination may seem subtle and inaudible, but I wanted to experiment with that possibility of sounds.


Using the 5 position key I can go from neck to bridge, being able to select 2 groups of combinations.

A more closed one with a predominance of mids (the lower version) and a more open one emphasizing the bass and treble (the upper version)


I intended to use the toggle key (2-position switch) to select the upper 5-combination group or the lower 5-combination group. Is it an incorrect solution that can be done in another way?




- jhng After reply I read your message, thank you very much.
Wow a lot to think about... I'll try to graph your suggestion to get a visual idea of ​​the combinations, then I'll add it here.

Again, thank you very much to all !

//edited

[newey]

Jun 6, 2022 5:50:56 GMT -5 3dlp said:

I intended to use the toggle key (2-position switch)

We still need to know what type of toggle switch you plan to use. You will need a DPDT toggle at a minimum.

@angellahash thinks you will need more poles to do all the coil cutting you propose to do. He may be right about that, we'll need to put pen to paper to see for sure.

jhng is also correct, a lot of those combos will sound the same. Unless the coils of the HBs are very dissimilar, as with SD's "P-rail" pickups, splitting to one coil will sound pretty much the same as splitting to the other, since the coils are so close together. And the coils in your Pearly Gates are the same AFAIK. Splitting the bridge to either coil may have a bit of a different tone as opposed to splitting to either neck coil, which will probably sound the same due to greater string excursuion at the neck position.

But you want what you want, so we'll try to come up with a drawing to do it.

[3dlp]

wait, give me a pair of days to take a decision

All the opinions gave me another point of view to the one I already had formed, and i can be wrong.

And knowing that your experience is superior to mine, I must take it into account.


I prefer to avoid someone taking the trouble to help me by diagramming my original version, and then not using it.

I greatly appreciate the time you took to post your opinions and I take them all as valid.

I be back

[MattB]

Hi, 3dlp.

I have an HSH guitar with a fairly complex wiring scheme, and after spending some time with it I found I don't really want or need that many combinations. Some of the series sounds are too  similar to be useful, and I don't really have much need for the single coil and parallel options. I mostly stick to using the same few sounds, and I'm planning to rewire it to a more basic design that just has the sounds I like best. I think in the long run you might be happier with a guitar that had either more tonal variety, or a simpler scheme with a smaller number of good, distinct sounds that fit together well.

On the other hand, I don't at all regret trying out such a complex scheme. Some of the sounds I thought I wouldn't like turned out to really good and useful, and some sounds I thought I would like weren't all that great. I spent a lot of time exploring all the options and trying to get the best out of them, and that was a lot of fun and well worth the effort of wiring it up. I also learned a lot. Some of the sounds I'm not keeping could work in a different guitar, so now I have some good ideas for future projects.

Some of your selections will sound similar, but I think the difference will mostly be enough to hear. Even if the difference between two sounds is small enough that you don't need both, you might prefer one over the other. If you want to experiment I think your plan is a good starting point.

I have a schematic that gives the coils selections you want (unless I made a mistake somewhere). All selections are in series, like the two coils of a humbucker.

I drew this for fun, because it looked like an interesting challenge, and I wanted to see if it could be done. If you decide you want something different, that's fine. It was no trouble to draw, because I enjoyed drawing it, and I won't mind at all if you don't use it.

There is one drawback-  the group selector switch needs eight poles to work. You won't find an eight pole toggle switch. You can probably find an 8PDT rotary or slide switch that will fit in a guitar, but even those aren't widely available.

So I also drew up a slightly simpler version. In the second version, Group 1 Position 2 is replaced with just the neck inner coil, and Group 1 position 4 is replaced with just the bridge inner coil.

This version only needs a 4 pole switch for the group select. 4 pole toggle switches are easy to find.

Version 1 (needs an 8PDT switch):

Version 2 (needs a 4PDT switch):

There are a huge number of options available when all possible combinations of series, parallel, in and out of phase, split or partial split and so on are included. All of that can be a bit overwhelming, espcially if you're learning about some of it for the first time. You don't need to rush into making a decision. It's worth taking some time to think about what kind of sounds you really need.

[newey]

MattB- pretty much a tour de force there, good work!

However, other than the neck and bridge HBs (where I assumed a series connection between the coils), I was assuming parallel connections inter-pickup. Several people have said series connections, but I did not get that from 3dlp 's original post. Did I miss something? Where did an "all series" setup come into the mix here?

If the combos are in parallel, I was thinking a regular DPDT toggle plus a Superswitch (or the Dimarzio equivalent, as here) would suffice. One pole for the 2 HBs, one pole to add the middle pup, the other two poles to split the HBs.

[MattB]

I assumed 3dlp's 'All combinations are humbucker' comment meant that all combinations were connected in series, like a humbucker. As you pointed out, it's not possible for all combinations to be hum-cancelling, so 'humbucker' meaning 'series connection' seemed like the most logical interpretation.

[3dlp]

You are right, i already have a telecaster (made by luthier) with Fender 52 single coin pickups. 
And a SG (made by luthier) with SD Pearly Gate set.
I'm happy with that sound.

for the Strat I was looking for something different because it has 3 alnico 2. With all combinations of individual pickups connected in pairs for hum cancellation.

What can I say, this is the friendliest community I have come across.

I lack words to thank each of you for the time you have dedicated to helping me. I value it a LOT.

Thank you very much!

[newey]

Jun 6, 2022 14:39:43 GMT -5 3dlp said:

With all combinations of individual pickups connected in pairs for hum cancellation.

Whether connected in series or in parallel, not all combinations will be hum cancelling, as I pointed out above. So, I did not take that to mean that you wanted all the combinations to be in series, as jhng and angellahash have assumed.

A typical Strat has all its pickups connected in parallel. The 2 HBs of (most) LP-stle guitars are connected in parallel; the individual coils of each HB are connected in series, typically. Series wiring, apart from guys like us who are nuts about modding guitars, is pretty rare coming from manufacturers. As noted, the Brian May guitars featured series wiring of 3 single coils, and some old Teisco and other Japanese makes from the 60's were wired in series, as were some Danelectros. But those are the exceptions.

So, were you looking to have all the combos wired in series, or in parallel? Or, some of each?

[jhng]

Jun 6, 2022 5:50:56 GMT -5 3dlp said:

Thank you all for taking your time to help me with this, I am very grateful ! 


A more closed one with a predominance of mids (the lower version) and a more open one emphasizing the bass and treble (the upper version)


//edited

3dlp -- If you are looking for a contrast between lighter, more open sounds vs more closed midrangy sounds, then a series/parallel switch is definitely worth exploring. The following set up would be quite easy to implement:

1. Neck (both coils)
2. Neck (outer coil) + Middle
3. Neck (outer coil) + Bridge (outer coil)
4. Middle + Bridge (outer coil)
5. Bridge (both coils)

Then the toggle switch changes each configuration (including 1 and 5) between series and parallel. Also only needs a DPDT toggle switch.

[3dlp]

newey At first I thought that these combinations with all in series covered an interesting variety of tones.
But after listening to the comments I realize that I started from a wrong idea.
As MattB said: I'm planning to rewire it to a more basic design that just has the sounds I like best. And jhng: I think you might get a more useful range of sounds by having more variation
 
So
The Pgates are Alnico2 dual wired, the SSL5 is Alnico5 single wired.
The Pgates can be connected in series and parallel.
Besides, everyone advises to use combinations with more distinctive sounds to take advantage of the pickups construction.
I am a bit lost reorganizing the ideas.
The option of being able to set them in series or parallel is very attractive and I can't ignore it.

jhng you are right, that could be a great option.

[jhng]

Is the guitar already assembled so it is just the wiring to be done? If so, what you can do is have the pickup wires outside of the guitar for a while and try out different combinations using a breadboard until you decide what combos you need in the final guitar.

I did this recently on a Strat. I pulled the pickup leads (carefully) through one of the holes in the scratch plate (after taking some knobs out) and taped a little breadboard to the front of the guitar. I was then able to experiment. It was really useful and I was able to verify that the combos I had intended to include were actually the ones I preferred.

[stevewf]

Jun 7, 2022 10:23:37 GMT -5 jhng said:

Is the guitar already assembled so it is just the wiring to be done? If so, what you can do is have the pickup wires outside of the guitar for a while and try out different combinations using a breadboard until you decide what combos you need in the final guitar.

I did this recently on a Strat. I pulled the pickup leads (carefully) through one of the holes in the scratch plate (after taking some knobs out) and taped a little breadboard to the front of the guitar. I was then able to experiment. It was really useful and I was able to verify that the combos I had intended to include were actually the ones I preferred.

And with 5 coils,  breadboarding could be a very good tool for getting familiar with as many combos as possible/comfortable, because changing the "wiring" of the guitar can be done pretty quickly. Not as fast as if it were wired to actual switches, but much faster than unsoldering/resoldering (not to mention lifting the pickguard  -- over and over -- from under well-abused strings).

You're concentrating on hum-cancelling combos; you could map out breadboard jumper settings ahead of time for all of them. That way, the actual testing can be faster.

Some hints on testing:

• Take notes. Make a chart ahead of time of all the combos you're about to test for the notes.
• Can you make a good recording? Useful for comparing, because there are so many combos, you might forget which sounded like what. Some tones may legitimately sound so similar that the final design could omit one of them. Comparing later can help with that, too. Ahead of time, figure out a way to index the clips (the chart could be used here, too). When comparing, don't compare a recording to live playing; unless you're sure of good fidelity, the mic and the ear can hear very different tones.
• For each coil combo, play with different styles and with different amp/pedal settings.
• Long haul. With multiple coils there'll be many combos. Be prepared to hunker down doing this for a while. Maybe even across multiple sessions. Don't keep going if you get bored/fatigued. Only do it when you're in a motivated and meticulous mood. Multiple sessions is where recordings can really help with comparison.

A snag I've hit with breadboarding is the delay when moving the jumpers. Compared to a real control switch, it's glacially slow. There's enough delay to make me lose the "A versus B" comparison that a real switch offers. There's also the potentiometer: jumpers in a breadboard can't replicate them.

How about marrying the breadboard with real controls? There can be challenges including space and noise (hum). Solutions? I've got one, but it's too lengthy for here. 

And one more point: there are three-coil combos that can be hum-canceling, too. JohnH began the thread "3 pup coil hum-canceling". By extension, there should be 5-coil combos too... And what about coils getting a cap in series or parallel? Different cap values... There; that'll add a few more combos to test!  

 

[3dlp]

Hi all ! sorry the long delay...

Finally i sent the guitar to my luthier and this is the final result.



I don't have the wiring diagram, my luthier made it.

He told me it was similar to the Guthrie Govan Wiring.


I am very happy with the result




Cheers and thanks for all !

[stevewf]

@3dip, glad you got it all going, and, most important, that you like it. It's pretty guitar. I like how the 'burst follows the elbow contour.

Curious: are the coil combos all in parallel, or did you manage to get some series combinations too?

[3dlp]

Hi !

The coil combos are all in parallel.
To manage serial I needed to change to a DiMarzio Multiswitch

www.dimarzio.com/hardware/switches/5-way-master-switch-strat-multipole


but that change exceeds my current needs, with everything in parallel I am very satisfied.