tone woods

OK, but would a maple neck (as well as the maple top) make a substantial difference to the sound? What I mean is, which affects the sound more, the top wood or the neck wood? Would the combination of the two override the character of the mahogany body?

Pardon my ignorance, but I've always been an alder/maple man until now.

I do want the mahogany warmth. I'm just trying to evaluate the degrees of brightness that different amounts of maple would lend the mahogany. I don't remember ever having played a guitar with a mahogany body and a maple neck.

If I get you right, you're saying that the neck, be it maple or mahogany, will have only a slight effect on the overall sound, and that the body is the main factor.

About 4-5 months ago there was a long thread on this topic. I searched and could not find it, there must be a date stamp where posts disappear off the board.

The thread brought in some physics about vibrational dissipation, and someone made the point that the tonal characteristics of different woods really reflected their detractive rather than additive contribution to tone. For example, mahogany is less dense than maple and dissipates the string vibration more rapidly. softening or darkening the 'tone.'

Another issue raised was that sustain was determined by the strength of the coupling of the bridge and nut to the substrata (wood) and then the propensity of a given wood to dissipate vibration at different rates and frequencies. Someone observed if you wanted bright tone with infinite sustain you should make a concrete guitar.

You could experiment by puttin a block of maple underneath the maple cap to couple the bridge to a denser substrata. Carrying that idea further you could use a block of steel or brass for even more density.

heres a more elaborate discussion of these principles:

[a href="

thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?s=c2e8e8a4f0c280f38183e367e44844fc&threadid=67410

"]

thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?s=c2e8e8a4f0c280f38183e367e44844fc&threadid=67410

[/a]

There was an assertion that while wood has different characteristics the notion of 'tone wood' is a myth.

[a href="

www.guitarnation.com/articles/calkin.htm

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www.guitarnation.com/articles/calkin.htm

[/a]

You frequently hear or see written the claim by guitar heads that a given body "has incredible resonance." That is fine for an acoustic. But you basically want a lack of resonance in a solid body. One reason Strats have an almost acoustic quality compared to LesPaul is of course the diff between single coils and -hums, but look at the construction. LPs are basically mono-blocks of hardwood. The maple cap is actually a half inch of maple, carved at the edges to emulate an arch-top. Whereas 90% or more of the Strat tremolos [virbratos] have strings running through a pot metal and suspended inertial block, a hollowed rout for the inertia block, and only a 1/4 inch of wood between the spring cavity (another big hollow) and the pup routs. There just ain't much meat there. You combine all that routing with a suspended vibrato and the coup de grace, a "tone plastic" pickgaurd, and you nearly have an acoustic.

Acoustic string vibration resonates in the sound chamber, and dissipates more rapidly as it is coupled only to a reinforced thin vibrational membrane.

Strats also can dissipate sound more rapidly than Les Pauls because of the lack of mass, density and the suspended coupling. So in that environment the wood type is contributing a minor amount of sound shaping compared to the pups and electronics. However, many guitarist prefer that added airiness to their sound, opposed to the more ridgely coupled guitars like LesPauls.

Myths to bust: Tone wood and "resonance, man".

You might consider bridge designs that emphasize stronger coupling than the two point Tuno. Perhaps a hipshot higher mass string through the body type, or one of the TonePros. Also coil cut or Parallel options on your -hums. These should brighten your sound.

Then the choice of pups and wireing schemes will have much greater impact on your desire to emphasize brightness than the wood types.

I just finished a build on an alder body, mahogany neck, Tuno. But the pups were vintage voiced alnico -hum with coil cuts. This thing is plenty bright, and much more so than my Les Paul, whose pups are darker and not coil-cuttable.

Built another one with the same body but used a maple neck. Zero contribution to brightness. The pups are darker and the tone is ...... darker.

I would encourage less worry about the wood and more thought about the physical coupling, choice of pups, and wiring configs to shape the tone you desire.

Oh yeah, there is also the amp's contribution to tone, but that is an entirely different discussion.

RW

Runewalker, I have to totally and utterly disagree with you. An ash body strat, a mahogany body strat, and a plywood/laminate strat, with the exact same p/u's, pickguard, neck, ect, do not, nor will not have the same tone! I agree that with todays advancement in pickups and electronics, cheaper guitars sound better than the equalivants of the 70's, but the wood is "the thing man!" If it didn't matter, then theoriticaly you could build a Stradivarius out of plywood.

Ah! But not all Ash bodied Strats with the exact same pups/pg/neck/etc, have the same tone either.



Then theoretically ANYONE can build a Stradivarius.


I will agree that the wood affects the tone, but NOT that any one type wood can be chosen to produce a given tone. If you could, then you should be able to produce a zillion copies of a guitar that all had the same tonal characteristics. But you can't.

I believe that the PLAYER makes a greater contribution to tone than the guitar. Eddie, Stevie, Jimi - all sound like themselves no matter what guitar they're playing. None of us would be able to reproduce their "tone" playing their guitars - no matter what wood was used in construction.

OK, I let this one lay awhile. Putting aside the contribution the player makes to tone, which again is a physics issue ......

In a NutZshell this is not an argument that wood types or densities fail to affect tone. It is an acknowledgment that there is an effect and the effect is overestimated.

Of course different wood species or even the same species from a different part of the tree, impart different sound (vibrational) dissipation properties. Obviously they do. There are a number of physical factors at play, including variability in the mechanical coupling, even with like parts. Density, continuity of coupling, string gauge, neck type, etc all impart some faction of tone shaping.

It would take a focused University study to detail the distributions of the various components contributions to tone. Ignoring the hands of the player argument a minute, if you set up a test that :

• used the same electrical and mechanical components,
  
• used the same pickgaurd and pups,
  
• Used the same type of neck attachment system to the same torque specs
  
• established the same torque and coupling specs and
  
• applied all of these attempts to eliminate component and coupling variance, ....
  

to a variety of bodies..... Then the effort is made to eliminate all of the variables that can affect output and tone, and allow you to focus on just the properties of the wood of a variety of bodies.

Those things don't happen in the real world and Bush is unlikely to approve funds for the study. Therefore we are left with educated guesses about the proportional contribution of the myriad of components affecting a Solid Body electric guitar.

So the pie chart would look something like: Pickups - 50%. Switching arrays - 30%, hardware - 10%, Wood Species or Density or whatever - 10%.

Obviously I don't have any evidence supporting the above distributions but they will be in these general directions.

Examples:
EVH. His poorly executed and butchered strat bod, with a 335 pickup sounded nothing like a strat. He even left off the critical Tone Plastic on some of his beasts! That sound was purely a humbucker (admittedly in magical hands) and would never be confused or mistaken for a single coil.

Gibson put out the ES175 as a less expensive version of its handcrafted carved-from-solid-wood tops. Funny thing was the Jazzers preferred them because the laminated top resonated less, and you could hear the purer tone of the pickups.

So the Stradivarius example only reinforces that the properties pursued in a solid body are the lack of resonance. Or at least a radical minimization of it. That is an acoustic instrument, which, not to state the obvious, is a completely different set of objectives. Have you ever seen an electric violin? No resonant chambers.

You will read about artists playing solid bodies acoustically to assess their "resonance." They are actually assessing coupling, since a firmly rooted set of string ends, in a stable mono-block will ring longer and truer.

So sure, different woods absorb different frequencies and rates of string osculation, and guitars will find variations more pleasing. But the wood is not the primary component of the sound.

But the whole topic is missing the hidden Tone Attenuator in Guitar Nutz guitars. Think a moment. What do we all do to our strat TonePlastic pickgaurds? That's right, we glue foil to them. But, and this is critical, some use aluminum and some use copper, I even saw a discussion on using mesh. Therefore, there is a failure to embrace the major breakthrough notion of:

TONEFOIL.

The sonic properties of Alum vs. Copper are well known and critical in the defining of your signature tone.

Chevy owners don't let friends drive Fords and Copperheads don't let friends play with Reynolds.

Next: The different adhesives we use to glue the foil to the Tone Plastic.

TONEGLUE.

RW

;D ;D ;D (:lol:)

Finish the guitar in metal foil...

Jazzers perfered the 175s because they were less prone to feedback due to the top resonating less, not because "you could hear the purer tone of the pickups," there's a slim possiblity that they perfered them for tonal reason also, but the major reason was feedback control. That's the reason that ES-335s are still made with lam tops today, to reduce the feedback.

.. TONE-whatever ..
.. whew .. are we talking serious or .. ?
;D

There's a lot of stuff like that that some people swear makes a difference and others don't. The concept makes some sense, but my suspicion is that in the real world it's immeasurable and inaudible. Too bad guitars are so hard to measure for things like this.

Sure there's a little, OK, a lot of tongue stuffed in my cheek on the whole ToneWoodPlasticSteelFoilScrewsGlueFinish.... discussion. However, as my first post in the thread noted, on Strats, especially swimming pool strats, you have a large pup cavity, and a large spring cavity, separated by 3/16" to 1/4" membrane of wood. Acoustic guitar tops are only3/32s" or so, but are significantly braced. So in the braced portions approximating the vibrational properties of that 3/16" sliver of wood.

Ergo, a Strat is an acoustic guitar not a solidbody electric, and .... er ..... ah..... I take it all back .......it's the wood, man.....Slap...

Thanks, I needed that.

So, Unk, I there are structual properties in the Strat design that make the sound different from a more solidly rendered instrument, and many guitarists find these differences preferrable. With all that routing, a thin mounting membrane, a thin separating wood membrane, and coils mounted on springs, theres all sort of bouncedy bouncedy going on in there.

In all seriousness I have wondered if those expensive gaurds made of wood have an effect on the reflective/absortive qualities of string vibration. And what about that anondized metal gold gaurd F put out for the 50th aniversery? I have read in the Marshall forum where guys swear that the anondized gaurds made their tone brighter and more .....etc.

Let's all try an experiement at home, kids.
Grab your strat ("and go sidewalk surfin'.... " Jan & Dean), unplug it from your wall of amp stacks and strum the strings enthusiastically, even vigorously, although not viciously, while lightly touching the pickgaurd in different spots. Feel any vibration. Feel any disapation. If so then the properties of the pickgaurd, routing, bridge suspention, saddle types (cast vs stamped, graphite vs brass, ...), pickup mounting springs or surgical rubber, etc all have some interaction in shaping the sound.

Quantifiable? Yes with proper equipment, laboratory setting, experimental protocols and money.

Hearable, probably not, at least on an individual item basis.

Which makes is all the better for pontification and unprovable assertions, the best kind.

RW

".....people assume too much WHAT is causing the differences, and have a mistaken concept of a valid test. Your test would prove nothing.... "

-Jester

---

While there are engineer members and those who act like them, science is a completely different matter.

Establishing an experimental design with the objective of assessing the relative contribution of various structural and component guitar designs would take a fairly elaborate course of planning and action. Accounting for, isolating and normalizing all of the independent and dependant variables, establishing and obtaining measuring instrumentation, establishing a neutral and consistent test environment, and deriving a statistically valid measurement and reporting mechanism would require $$$$ and real scientists.

So your point, Jester, is well taken. As guitarists, builders, modders or even engineers, we notice or think we notice this that or the other then leap to the conclusion that definitely, irretreivably, and inarguably, this, that or the other affect tone to an unquestioned degree.

We, GN2 friends, are nay, verily, at the nexus of Science and Religion, certainty and belief. It is, is it not, the best of worlds, where wild notions may be ridden and only argued about, never proven. Everyone is right, everyone is wrong.... is this not heaven on earth?

Er...... probably not.

This stuff is assessable and even provable, but probably not by us. We have only logic, illogic, beliefs, assumptions, worshiping of craven images (guitars), and proseltizing to roughly carve out our little plot in the wilderness --- not pockets to our knees stuffed with cashiers' checks full of multiple zeros. Erstwhile we would just pay people to build this stuff (I feel like a jewler wiring up 'dem teeny-tiny switches)

[We are but] Homesteaders seeking guitar-religious freedom in the quest for ultimate tone. Not a destination, but an endless journey.

- Guitar Budda

---

Hey Bam, since we can't prove any of these assertions, only try to badger ourselves into a consensus so that we can substitute consensus for scientific fact .......there's an idea for a poll:

(bullets are 'radio dial' selectors.

What factors in passive electonic, solid body guitars, and in what distribution, shape the tone of a given axe?

50% to 70%

• Set Neck vs. Bolt on
  
• Solid body vs chambered vs Semi-solid
  
• Single coil vs Humbucker
  
• Switching array
  
• Back routed or front routed with pickgaurd
  
• Pickgaurd material
  
• Nut material
  
• Vibrato vs Tuno or Hardtail
  
• Other ______________
  

30% to 50%

• Set Neck vs. Bolt on
  
• Solid body vs chambered vs Semi-solid
  
• Single coil vs Humbucker
  
• Switching array
  
• Back routed or front routed with pickgaurd
  
• Pickgaurd material
  
• Nut material
  
• Vibrato vs Tuno or Hardtail
  
• Other ______________
  

20% to 30%

• Set Neck vs. Bolt on
  
• Solid body vs chambered vs Semi-solid
  
• Single coil vs Humbucker
  
• Switching array
  
• Back routed or front routed with pickgaurd
  
• Pickgaurd material
  
• Nut material
  
• Vibrato vs Tuno or Hardtail
  
• Other ______________
  

10% to 20%

• Set Neck vs. Bolt on
  
• Solid body vs chambered vs Semi-solid
  
• Single coil vs Humbucker
  
• Switching array
  
• Back routed or front routed with pickgaurd
  
• Pickgaurd material
  
• Nut material
  
• Vibrato vs Tuno or Hardtail
  
• Other ______________
  

00% to 10%

• Set Neck vs. Bolt on
  
• Solid body vs chambered vs Semi-solid
  
• Single coil vs Humbucker
  
• Switching array
  
• Back routed or front routed with pickgaurd
  
• Pickgaurd material
  
• Nut material
  
• Vibrato vs Tuno or Hardtail
  
• Other ______________
  

Since I freely and proudly admit to not being a scientist, I don't know if this the proper form for the poll (pole), and there is no way the variable percentages would add up to 100%, but you hopefully see the direction.

Maybe the real brains here can come up with another way to collect the opinions in a meaningful poll. Or not.