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Post by ozboomer on Mar 24, 2010 6:14:44 GMT -5
Well, I've come to a bit of a crossroads (HA HA) with my playing and I'm not quite sure what to do next. Hence, I thought I would consult our resident Oracles... A quick bit of my background, which I think might help... Had lessons in electronic organ from ~1969 to 1976 (including a reasonable amount of theory on chord construction/substitution, scales, voicings, etc). Bought my first acoustic guitar in ~1970, first Les Paul Custom (copy) in ~1974. School bands in 1977, 1978. Synthesizers took over through 1980s, although I kept in basic touch with the guitar. On hiatus through much of the 1990s but would still tinker with my keyboards during this time. Bought my first (Squier) Stratocaster in 2006. Started taking guitar lessons for the first time as of January 2007... and the weekly lessons continue... but I wonder, should they continue right now? I started lessons with some basic idea of what I wanted to do with my guitar playing: to go beyond being able to "only" play some simple open chords and Barre chords. After 3 years of lessons, I can now sort-of locate and play a few of the inversions and voicings of major/minor triads in most of the common keys (though they sometimes don't ring clearly - I can't get my fingers DOWN well enough or consistently); I can improvise a little using major scale/chord tones and major/minor Pentatonic scales; I'm sort-of getting to know my way around the notes on the fretboard. My goals (in a broad sweep): I would like to play some simple blues/rock solos (note choice and articulations); to be able to play some simple rhythms (I know about a clave but I can't play it consistently enough); get into playing some sort of simplified style of surf (I might aspire to play "Latin'ia", I guess - I somehow doubt I'll ever get the tremelo picking happening)... and generally vamp/comp a bit and be Ok to sit-in with people in a jam situation. I'd like to play some more 'altered chord' -types of things (although, maybe I will do that with my keyboard knowledge?)... but I can see that if I really 'master'(?) some simple triads of the basic chord types (major, minor, diminished and augmented), all over the fretboard, I'll probably have more than enough knowledge/abilities to do the sorts of things I Want to do... I think. Overall, I don't want to get too complicated. I can only arrange an hour a day or so of practice/study, so I don't expect to get too far too quickly... but I think that if I keep things simple, don't broaden the scope too much and just work on things piecewise, I might be able to get a bit better. I might have dreams of playing like B. B. King, Mark Knopfler or Dave Gilmour... but I realize that I won't get close to that sort of playing 'coz I simply can't put in the practice time... but I wonder if I need the detailed tuition at the moment, given that I'm in this 'learning the positions' phase; I know what I need to do and I just have to get the hours under my fingers before I can get somehow proficient with what I want to do. I know, I know... I'm thinkin' too much again - my teacher says that to me frequently... and I should -just play-... *sigh* I dunno... I guess I'm just 'fishing' for some thoughts/opinions... if anyone feels like sharing  Fanx!, everyone... John |
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Post by newey on Mar 24, 2010 10:48:14 GMT -5
I started taking lessons again in 2008, after not having had any formal instruction since the early 1970's, during my Junior High days.
My feeling is that the structure of having a defined goal each week focuses my practice time much better than I could, or would, do on my own. I find the lessons valuable, therefore, regardless of whether I'm reviewing stuff I already know or learning something new.
Who the instructor is also makes a huge difference. Is he/she willing, and able, to teach you what you want to learn, or are you forced to follow a preset agenda of the instructor's making?
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Post by Double Yoi on Mar 24, 2010 16:48:53 GMT -5
Ozboomer,
Man, I hear you about the time.
The way I learned, was to play with cats that were better than me. I would follow them and go from there. and if i brought something away from the encounter Great! If not, Ive never had a bad time playin with them. If you mess up, so what. Than thats what you practice on at home. We called it woodshedding.
If you know what you want to play, and the lessons are taking away your time to practice it,
whats the point?
I say play, always.
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Post by sumgai on Mar 24, 2010 17:20:50 GMT -5
In starting out to formulate this reply, I took a trip down memory lane.... that was a few days ago, and I just got back! ;D I've decided to cast off al lthe shuck-and-jive, and tell you just the one thing that I think will make the greatest difference in how you play.... though not in how you learn to play - that's a topic I'll touch on briefly in a few paragraphs. Here's the secret - always play with people that are better than you! Much better, if you can swing it. It's a known fact that we only perform as well as we need to in order to get the job done. When we perform/play with our inferiors, we get lazy, and don't do nearly as well. That is almost sure to weaken your skill set, not strengthen it. The moral of that story is that king of the hill is always ripe for being knocked off. My advice is to seek out (and attend!) one or more jam sessions a week. Preferably, you'd fine at least one such that features most players performing in a style of music that's somewhat different from what you are currently doing - that introduces you to new concepts and new ways of doing familiar things. But a session is worthless if everyone there is no better than you already are, trust me on that one. Better to find a crowd of technically proficient musicians that make great music, no matter what the style, than to find one that seems easy to get into. Bottom line - no challenge equals no gains. Now, for a short treatise on how to learn to play your instrument in a better fashion, let me refer you to these postings (then read each thread all the way through): One deep sigh!I'm giving it up!</nutshell> HTH sumgai |
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Post by ozboomer on Mar 25, 2010 6:14:38 GMT -5
Many good things to take note of there, in your posts, Thank You! everyone... and sumgai, I will be checking-up about that 'Effortless Mastery' book - it's in a local library so I'll try and grab it as soon as I can. Let me take another step back, though... I started out with my teacher with a list of 'facts', or things that I wanted to do with my playing, things like: - to play more and varied chords, voicings and in different positions on the neck
- to play some simple improvised solos; nothing flashy, just 'infills' more than anything, that would add interest to my playing
- to play some more interesting rhythms, rather than nothing more than straight 8ths and the 'bompah-bompah' shuffle rhythm and simple strumming
- to get an understanding of what I guess we call 'bandcraft'; to better understand instrument register and tonal ranges and how guitar parts contribute to the sound of a band... and what the role of a guitar IS in a band
I said right at the outset, that I don't aspire to anything professional - I'm not trying to make a living out of my music; I just don't have the time, nor the inclination for that, really. I just want to be able to play a bit better, combine the guitar with my keyboard playing and do some home recording. It's all been about getting back into some of the 'more important' things in life, and music has always been 'my thing'... and I'd neglected it for too long... I also mentioned about my background and level of knowledge (as described in my original post)... and I brought along some of my favourite pieces of guitar playing by some favourite artists, to say 'here's some stylistic things I would like to get to playing'. So, I think we had defined something reasonable in terms of where I was... and where I wanted to go. I tend to do a complete review of what I want to be doing every year or so (mainly 'coz I sometimes add to the list throughout a given year! ...but not very much)... and I talk to my teacher about how we're going... and I'm currently at the stage that I've "ticked the boxes" (*ugh!* - apologies for the trendoid trash language) on a LOT of the things I've wanted to do. Now, I perfectly well understand that the learning never stops and you can always improve. I mean, as an example, I don't know all my triads by ANY means... but I can sort-of play a lot of the major and minor triads, in most of the common keys, in their 3 inversions, across the 1-2-3 and 2-3-4 string sets now, that I couldn't do before the lessons... but it's taken me 3 years to get that far. In this case in particular, I know I have to work on the other chord types and and to play them on the other string sets.. and when those are all achieved, my solos (in terms of note choices) will likely improve again... so I've achieved (to an ever-increasing level) the original objective regarding playing more and varied chords. Similar descriptions apply for the other items I mentioned above... ...but I'm thinking that I feel like I just have to do the 'hack work' now; 'walk the walk' and practice a lot and get these chords, scales and such *known*... and THEN I might go back to working with my teacher... and just quietly, I'm starting to have a bit of trouble justifying the $2000+ per year for (the 'luxury'?) of taking lessons that only occasionally identify a 'pearl' piece of knowledge, way of playing, a sound or whatever... when I don't even have the 'basics' under my belt (yet). I'm often accused of thinking too much... analyzing too much... and I just don't play enough... and that's probably true in a lot of ways... but it still comes down to the basic fact that it feels like I'm not going to get any further until I master some of this basic knowledge (chords, inversions, scales and their locations across the fretboard) and given the way things have gone over the past 3 years, I don't know that a teacher is going to help me do the grunt work of just learning these things. Pfft. I'm feeling kinda crazy at the mo... |
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Post by JohnH on Mar 25, 2010 7:25:34 GMT -5
If you are within range of Melbourne, I recommend Weekend Warriors: www.allansmusic.com.au/Promos/Events/9.aspxHonestly, this has changed my life. In Melbourne and Sydney, it is based at Allans music. The program starts with a jam on a Sunday afternoon - just bring your guitar and a handful of chords and that is all you need. Singers, drummers bassists and guitarists etc, who want to get back into a band, or wish they had but never did show up and have a go. Then bands are assembled, and over about 5 weeks, you get four rehearsals, all gear supplied, with a top pro musician, followed by a pub gig in which you play a half hour set! its challenging! The cost of all that is about $300 Aus Some of the band carry on, as ours have over the last three years. The guys have become very good friends and we get together most weeks. As for playing, it is way more fun and more educational to play with others. cheers John |
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Post by newey on Mar 25, 2010 7:46:23 GMT -5
OUCH! OK, that's approx. $1800/yr. USD- I'd be rethinking that, too!  That's mighty dear. Is that for a half-hour or an hour? Mine run $15 US per week for 1/2 hr., which is only $780 per year. |
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 25, 2010 8:14:53 GMT -5
All very good advice. I don't have anything terrible deep to offer, just to expand on sumgai's take on things.
I agree you're only as good as the other players you're with. The game is raised or lowered accordingly.
One thing I found was that the older I got the harder it was to find players to jam with. To compound matters I moved out in the middle of nowhere.
Something I started doing a few years ago was picking a scale, turning on the drum machine, and just working the scale into as many patterns and riffs and runs as I could. I'd vary the tempo and drum pattern several times just to keep it interesting, but always stayed within that particular scale.
As a bass player it helped me work on timing and feel...as the machine is always there waiting for you when you wander back in time...plus it beat the Hell out of playing mindless rote repetitions of scales...
My point is, the best guitarists, IMHO, have a genuine sense of feel. This is not something you get from a book, you need to pull it from inside somewhere...and that takes enough time on and knowledge of your instrument to where it becomes second nature...this was just a way to keep it fun when there was no one else to jam with.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by ijustwannastrat on Mar 25, 2010 11:03:58 GMT -5
I don't know if my advice is worth anything, but I'll just say what I do.
I just try to learn songs. Not from tabs, but by ear. I have alot of the music theory memorized, and I have it all written out in a notebook. I find the chord progression, from there the key, and any riffs or fills from there. Obviously with bastards like the Beatles this method is awefully difficult, but I feel as if I'm FEELING the theory more than just THINKING about it.
With songs I already know, I try my hardest not to solo exactly what is recorded. I know it's tempting, but I find it very rewarding to find what pattern the guitarist was soloing in, and trying to AVOID that pattern. Do I end up with great results? Not alot. But I'm trying to move AWAY from my "safety rut".
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Post by sumgai on Mar 25, 2010 11:05:01 GMT -5
One thing I found was that the older I got the harder it was to find players to jam with. To compound matters I moved out in the middle of nowhere. Hmmm, jamming with horses..... sorta gives a whole new meaning to "country and western", doesn't it? ;D |
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 25, 2010 11:28:20 GMT -5
Hmmm, jamming with horses..... sorta gives a whole new meaning to "country and western", doesn't it? ;D We really don't want to go there...do we... Actually, the horses all like Stevie Ray and Santana. Last time I played C & W in the barn I got kicked... HTC1 |
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Post by sumgai on Mar 25, 2010 11:45:28 GMT -5
Actually, I have two more tidbits to offer. One is that many websites, and more than a few players I've jawed with, say that you get a different perspective on playing if you learn to sing and play the same note(s) at the same time. IOW, sing along with your playing, and vice-versa. The other thing is, as c1 reminded me above, the hardest person you'll ever play along with is.... you! (Once again I had a 1000 essay all written out, and upon proof-reading it, I self-edited it for lack of intelligence. The following will have to suffice, hopefully it will be understandable.) Music is all about one thing -time and timing. (The official word for that is "meter".) To keep up your chops (chord comping and soloing), play along with yourself, instead of other folks. (But don't give up the jam sesions, those are the proof that your studies are paying off.) In today's world, this is much easier than when I started out with a tape recorder..... all you need now is a looper than can handle 12 or 16 bars, and you're all set. What you'll find is that those beautiful chords you just got down in memory are really nice, but when you go to solo over them, you lose your place so often, you start wondering "what the hey was I doing then?".   That's when you realize that your timing is not so "spot on" as you thought. And that affects your feeling for being able to whip out a 32 note riff in the next 4 beats. Trust me on this. Any looper that can "quantize" has a built in metronome, or better yet, a simple drum machine that will act as a metronome for you. This takes a lot of self-discipline, but again, trust me - even if you played for years, and others consider your meter to be excellent, if you are having troubles "feeling" your way through a solo, then chances are good that you're not yet able to "feel" the timing, and can't yet "play around" with it. Hmm, play around with it. I just realized that I'm bringing up something from my deleted diatribe. Just so. OK. What I'm getting to here is that if you concentrate too hard on keeping good meter, you may be cutting yourself off from feeling "the Muse that moves you". This Muse will get under your skin, and literally make you alter the timing of what you're doing, in small, playful, and hopefully skillful ways. The proof of this is, for fear of repeating myself too often, found in being able to jam with others, and watching the interaction as the Muse moves one player, and the others follow without conscious volition. It's what some folks call "organic" music - everyone's on board at the same time, and everyone's having a whale of a good time. And that's how music should be, a good time was had by all. ;D Uhhh, excuse me, I gotta go take my meds now..... HTH sumgai |
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Post by ozboomer on Mar 25, 2010 15:03:22 GMT -5
Just a couple of things quickly before I head out to work.. newey: We're talkin' about one 30 min lesson per week... and, as I described, it's sort-of driven by the teacher... although I sometimes go feral with questions... johnh: Many thanks for that suggestion. I've seen the blurbs about WW at Billy Hyde's... but haven't been game enough to bite the bullet on it... Too shy, me ...but from what has been posted lately, I'm guessing it's going to be something I'll have to do at some stage(!) sumgai: I'm just as bad, re: postings. I spend an hour or two building these huge postings and then promptly cut them in half and post the remnants(!)... the ol' thing of my head running faster than my fingers... ...and I lashed-out on the lil' Loop Station last year. so I've been workin' that to death a lot. I have the computer, o'course, but it's just easier to use the lil' bit of hardware most of the time... More thoughts later... again, thx to everyone for the thought-provoking posts... John |
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Post by sumgai on Mar 25, 2010 19:30:24 GMT -5
John, OK, now that you're off work, and kickin' back with a brew(ski) or two.....  I've had my meds for the day, and that lets me tell the other half to leave me alone, I'm busy! ;D So I was gonna go downstairs and do my workout, and I wanted to load some fresh stuff on the ol' ipod..... I opened my music folder, glanced around, and what did my eyes land on but a folder names "jam tracks". Hmmm, I haven't looked in here in awhile, what's in there, I wonder.... Ye Gawds, all kinds of junk I've collected over the years, meant for just that one thing we want to do, solo over a backing track that sounds like a real band, and not just bunch of 'roo punchers on a walkabout.  So at some point before my IQ devolved from it's lofty high of equalling a raw carrot, I was smart, and wrote notes to myself. Musta been prescient, eh? And wouldn't you know it, there's a website involved. (Elsewise, I'd have nothing to talk about just now.  ) Go here: www.bluesblast.com/And check out what's available. This guy isn't any more amazing than the average joe, but somehow I'm impressed that he just "put his finger" right where all of us have had an itch at one time or another. There's something here for probably just about every kind of player under the sun, I swear. But if you don't want to cruise the whole site, I recommend these two pages. The first has a boat load of various-style mp3's: www.bluesblast.com/whatever/whatever.htmlThis next page is what I first found, a comprehensive set of exercises for building both speed and coordination of the hands. Some of this is mp3, and some of it is in MIDI format, hope your player can handle it: www.bluesblast.com/speedw.htmlGive that a whack, and see how you feel after that workout.  HTH sumgai |
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Post by JohnH on Mar 26, 2010 13:54:09 GMT -5
johnh: Many thanks for that suggestion. I've seen the blurbs about WW at Billy Hyde's... but haven't been game enough to bite the bullet on it... Too shy, me ...but from what has been posted lately, I'm guessing it's going to be something I'll have to do at some stage(!) You know that this is true! WW addresses all the best advice by the others about playing with other people. Its right there, on a plate, you just have to go and pick it up...... I too was shy, still am, and I was a cr@p guitar player. My playing is very basic, but I can now at least play a useful rhythm in a rocking band that people want to hear, and I took up vocal duties too - never done before. Go for it! John |
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Post by ozboomer on Mar 27, 2010 8:11:12 GMT -5
I've been going through all sorts of heartache, especially today, sussing out everything that's been posted here and trying to come to some decision about what to do with my music these days... and the upshot of it is that I think I need some 'consolidation time'. Ok, I'll admit I might be rationalizing things a bit... but I'm only going by what I've done with previous music/instrument lessons... and I think I've achieved a lot so far and I need to get to be a bit "more familiar" (borrowing from Kenny Werner) with things -- get them so they'll be second nature to me -- before I try and cram more into my head. If you follow this link (a 1320x1337 GIF image, 92kB in size) - apologies for its fuzziness - you might gain a better understanding of where I'm at... and in particular, with respect to where (I think) I want to be. I also had a bit of a revelation earlier tonight: I've been paying top-dollar for a "Rolls Royce" instructor for 3 years to teach me how to be a professional musician, when all I want to do is play at home and maybe entertain the friends and family and to have some fun doing it. Maybe I lost the plot from the outset? Dang...  How *DO* you 'break-up' with your teacher of some years!? |
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Post by newey on Mar 27, 2010 9:51:06 GMT -5
Your instructor is your employee- he's supposed to be working for you. Just tell him you're moving on, it's not like breaking up with a girlfriend or anything!
Oz, based on your chart, I think you're seriously overthinking this. You say the goal is not to become a professional, yet you're drawing up charts of your goals?
Just condense all that into a single goal- to be a better guitarist- and just play.
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Post by ozboomer on Mar 28, 2010 6:46:39 GMT -5
Your instructor is your employee- he's supposed to be working for you. Just tell him you're moving on, it's not like breaking up with a girlfriend or anything! Well, I guess so.. Although, I always find it kind of tricky to simply 'stop' any sort of relationship (professional or personal) cold; just klunk it on the head, type of thing is next to impossible... Heh... as always ...but I'm an engineer (and a computer bod) - it's just the way I think, a lot of the time... Yup. Actually, I think it's a pretty standard way to learn things, isn't it? If you try to learn something 'huge' by hitting it straight-on, with no modification, you'll get discouraged and give-up. Rather, you break it down into manageable parts, you study/learn a small bit of the whole, integrating it into your existing knowledge, and when it becomes part of your knowledge, that fact gives you the little emotional/ego boost to move onto the next little bit with some confidence that you are learning... ...and I don't really think the 'level' of learning has anything to do with it; it's an intensely personal thing - your 'huge task' might be my '5-minute job' - but if I see something as a big task, I'll break it down, where you might get it under your belt very quickly. The learning mechanism ('divide and conquer') is still pretty much the same. One more thing to satisfy my curiosity (and to help explain what I guess is a 'big task' to me), here's a list of the facets of playing that were introduced to me (and I'm still trying to understand, in some cases) as something 'new' during the last 12 months of lessons; they were introduced more-or-less in the order shown... and there was no 'program' as such - we just 'fell into them' as the year progressed: - learning chord positions for major chords and triads across the fretboard
- playing a pentatonic scale in 4ths
- some basic application of the tri-tone resolutions in soloing (b7th -> 3rd in IV7 - I)
- thumb muting
- Dominant 7th applications: inversions and their locations, pentatonic scales/substitutions (in I - IV - V)
- Some T-Bone Walker slide techniques for a slow blues
Now, for some basic/introductory understanding of these things, would you say that there's a year's worth of work in these things? ...or is the extent of the list an indication of my slowness in learning/lack of dedication? Please understand, I'm not going crook at anyone or anything; it's just that I'm working through some thoughts and trying to come to grips with 'the way things are'... and 'how the world works'(!) Thanks, folks.. John |
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Post by gumbo on Mar 31, 2010 9:02:20 GMT -5
John (O-B), Praise to you for thinking things through the way you do, and sharing that with us...I understand fully how easy it is to get bogged down in things (believe me!!!) and look for ways to avoid that, but I do feel that the advice of others so far to try to 'skim' across some of this is essential to you achieving the level of satisfaction to which you aspire... ...and while we are on it (and I stand corrected if it is the fuziness of your image that prevented me from seeing it)..your chart was missing the word "satisfaction"... Take a leaf from JH's book about getting out there and trying stuff...get involved with WW (or find a few mates to jam with)..find a pub that does open mic sessions or similar...as we still say in my band (and most of us have been playing for decades)..one performance is worth quite a few rehearsals!! Over the (48) years that I have been playing some sort of instrument or other, most (if not all) of my 'progress' has been due to the various musicians I have had the pleasure and privilege to play with..it has brought me through drums, percussion, bass, acoustic and electric guitar and guitar synth, backing and lead vocals, writing, arranging, recording and stage managing just to name a few of the mad things I have done over the years ... I now play with a bunch of guys who are all part of a virtual 'extended family' and consider myself very fortunate to have had these opportunities... ...BUT you've got to MAKE it happen and get out there and do it...if there is but one thing to aim for, it's that the next gig will be even better.. ...and that can also be the next time you play to your family! As far as your teacher goes, if the relationship is as strong as your suggest, I think it's quite possible that you can expect him to understand your situation and feelings if you take the time to explain them properly...if he takes offence at that, then perhaps the relationship was questionable in the first place....have a think about what is really important to YOU, and follow that line... I'm sure I can speak for many here when I say that we may cr@p on a bit from time to time, but basically we all understand each other extremely well...the stuff you are experiencing is not that far away from emotions a lot of us have felt at some point or other...we just sometimes deal with it differently because we are all a bit different...and thank goodness for that!! ...and thank goodness there are still engineers out there too!!! ;D 10/10 for talking about it all.....that's probably a VERY good first step...let us know how things progress for you...I'm sure they will!!! Cheers from over the western border (if you're in the Blackburn that I think you are!) |
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Post by newey on Mar 31, 2010 18:52:36 GMT -5
Well said, Gumbo. +1!
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Post by ozboomer on Mar 31, 2010 23:11:55 GMT -5
Praise to you for thinking things through the way you do, and sharing that with us...I understand fully how easy it is to get bogged down in things (believe me!!!) and look for ways to avoid that, but I do feel that the advice of others so far to try to 'skim' across some of this is essential to you achieving the level of satisfaction to which you aspire... Heh... Well, I'm accused of over-intellectualizing things sometimes... and I admit I often "think" more than "do"... but I think (HA HA) it's always worthwhile to air some of these things, not only for myself but it sometimes challenges people to deal with the "inertia"; we often do things out of habit and highlighting that fact can sometimes help redirect thinking... or at least, make you think about what you're trying to achieve... 'coz the inertia might've swept you along a path that is not really where you wanted to go... and you may not be aware of that fact... "Skimming", eh? ... I s'pose the way I interpret that is still about simply playing and let the music get to you somehow. For example, I can still remember playing some simple little (major chord) progression on the guitar ages ago... and it sounded Ok... but I went through it again and managed to play some inversions I had just learnt... and then I played them on a different part of the neck... and the feel of the tune totally changed (as did the sound, obviously).. and I got kinda excited about the new sound; I ran through this "new way" another few times and then fell across using a Sus 4 chord... and so it went for an hour or something, just doing little embellishments and things.. and that was very satisfying, even if some of the things I tried didn't work so well, or I couldn't play them like I wanted. Anyway, I guess that sort of feeling hasn't happened for a while... and the "joy of discovery" had disappeared a mite; playing had become a bit of a chore, 'coz I was playing this same old stuff, in the same old ways and I didn't feel like I was getting anywhere much, even though I was learning new techniques and chords and things.. Chatting with my teacher last night sort of highlighted the point, I s'pose: it's the APPLICATION of what I know that needs to be explored more... and that's what I'd like to be doing, I guess... but I get frustrated 'coz I have an idea of what I'd like to do... I can imagine it... but when I go to play that triad... or I look for that little scale segment, it's just not there - I don't know it - so the whole exercise of the little bit of creativity gets knocked on the head. ...and that's why my thinking was heading towards not so much about learning new things and new applications right now... but to better develop the basics; once the "simple" tools (scales, chords, triads in particular) become familiar (Kenny Werner again), I can then "combine" the simple tools into more "complex" tools (like, knowing what notes I need to play in a solo to imply the resolution of b7th -> 3rd in a IV - I cadence, for example)... ...but I'm getting intellectual again... just play the silly notes and see what sounds good, John! Again, that's a problem of not fully detailing the goals, I think; the old "SMART" thing - where the goals have to be: Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic and Time (available). For example, I knew I wanted to play more varied chords... but what da heck did that mean!? Does it mean altered chords in all keys or just to be able to do some chord substitutions to make "On Top of Old Smoky" more interesting? As you say, I didn't ask "what will give me some 'better' sense of satisfaction after I have played that piece"? Is it the sound of the more interesting chords for their own sake... or is it that the audience comes out with a couple of "ooohs" instead of "yawns"!? Well, I find that interesting, actually, to understand how that might work. I have an involvement with a couple of "informal get-togethers" (pseudo guitar clubs, if you like, where there are maybe 20 core members who sometimes arrange a monthly jam... although, these are done in public... which kinda freaks me out ...)... but in these groups, I enjoy listening more than the playing 'coz the "technicalities" always get in the way (I can't hear myself, you're playing such that I can't keep-up... all these normal sorts of things). If I put myself into a situation where I feel hopeless more than competent, how will that help me improve? Through some sort of inspirational thing? That others will help me out with what needs to be done? That I also do that with someone who's not as adept as me? (*thinks* ... Desiderata revisited: "...for always there will be greater and lesser guitar players... than yourself"). I mean, I'm willing to try that sort of thing... at least, in some small-scale way... but I guess my ignorance shines through... 'coz I can't see how it will help (at the moment). I think it's also a function of... "environemnt"... or something, as I've always played solo (organ and other keyboards) and part of getting some guitar lessons organized was to gain an understanding of playing in a group... and without any sheet music Man, talk about verbal diahorea... I'll shut up in a minute... Well, I'm the same sort of... "vintage"... I guess.. Although, I haven't played "properly" (performed)... or "continuously" (playing more frequently than a couple of songs, once a week)... but I've always been around and *tinkered* with keyboards, guitars and the computer things for the last 40+ years... [...much more thought-provoking comment...] [...about the teacher...] Well, we're pretty good, I think. We had our "last official lesson" for a while last night... and he was Ok with that... and said he understood my frustration and so on.. but it still came down to the same thing: "Just PLAY, John" So, that's what I'm ultimately trying to work on... even though what to play.. what NOT to play.. how to play.. and such things are all still a bit vague to me... Well, that's a pretty golden, helpful paragraph ...and I guess it doesn't hurt to blather on a little (sometimes...) Anyway, I'll plod along... and keep recording/practicing... and I'll work at doing something about getting to play with some other people, eh? Well, leafy Blackburn in Melbourne's east is where I've lived all my life... and I like it Fanx! for your thoughts... and I appreciate you taking the time to write. John |
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Post by gumbo on Apr 1, 2010 6:19:54 GMT -5
....and I appreciate you taking the time to reply! ...and yes, leafy Blackburn (I know it well!) IS East of here (Sowdsdraya)... ;D John...just let things settle..have a great break over Easter, take a big deep breath (BDB)...you will find the elusive factor that will enable you to continue your journey in ways to your own satisfaction...it may involve moving a few goal posts along the way, but you will get past them! We all look forward to hearing about the journey...it's not about the speed with which you get there - it's more about how you enjoy the view as you're going along.. Take care, Mate (that's an Oz thing, Folks!)...I'm sure you've got a lot of great music in you yet.. |
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Post by ozboomer on Apr 1, 2010 7:08:51 GMT -5
Off-Topic .. ;D .. but I just had to drop in a lil' note on this (before I sleep on the 'real' topics)... ...and yes, leafy Blackburn (I know it well!) IS East of here (Sowdsdraya)... ;D Ohhh, mannnn, I'm SO SLOW... Sowdsdraya... tha's akin to finding a Jazzmaster in a local guitar shop... and saying Emma Chiset ... -Duh...  Back to sleep for me.... ;D |
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gtrax
Rookie Solder Flinger
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Post by gtrax on May 15, 2010 18:47:50 GMT -5
Yeah - learn to play again I got radical, fell out of love with Windows, discovered huge (free) Linux-based audio production software, and ended up in headphones, jammin' away with a bass guitar coupled into the soundcard mixer, laid over everything from midi and mp3s to YouTube videos of rock, pop, country, soul, jazz. The key thing about learning here is the easy availability of music tools, tuners, etc. If you have a melody as MIDI, or as a TAB, it can play back to you any speed you like, instant lick replay, let LilyPond or TuxGuitar show you the music score. Print it out. It even plays the tabs .ptb files. Like some of you guys in this thread, I picked up the guitar again later in life. If I am going to get good, I need to do it discreetly. Actually, I don't much care if I do just play into my computer friend, I can do it without being an embarrassment to my kids, acting as if in a mid-life crisis! That there is a learning curve through new novel and unfamiliar GUI interfaces is true - but its fun!. If you want to play and experiment without writing a single byte to your existing PC, just boot from a LiveCD, or a USB stick. It all lives in memory, and disappears when you switch off - unless you specifically save to USB or make a special file. Check out PureDyne, Ubuntu Studio, 64Studio. Look at www.linux-sound.orgLook at www.distrowatch.com and set search for Ubuntu Studio |
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Post by sydsbluesky on May 19, 2010 4:13:40 GMT -5
I didn't read all of this... I actually only read three deep, but I think flateric has a sig that could teach you how to play as MK, BB king or Dave Gilmour... Pretty sure that Amelia Earhart said it first, though.
Learn the solo to Time. Tomorrow!!! Have faith, fellow nut.
I hang with and JAM with a few amazing guitarists. I went through a stage years back where I would ask them how they got so good... know what they said?
"I played songs."
An hour a day doesn't matter. Bring the passion. Don't play a "technical" warmup. Play a MENTAL warmup. Get in the mood, ya dig?
A.E.: "The most effective way to do it... is to do it."
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Post by irwired on Oct 26, 2010 12:46:06 GMT -5
I was thinking of starting a new thread on this subject and decided to poke around first, and glad i did. I ordered Effortless Mastery on Amazon last night and to make my free shipping minimum a copy of Glen Gould's Goldberg Variations (J.S.Bach) By the way the inspiration behind the J.S. Bach was a film Polly and I saw at the new Musical Instrument Museum here In Phoenix. www.themim.org/ we live 15min from this amazing place. If you get a chance to visit don't pass it up. let me know if you do and I'll meet you for a beer. i wanted to thank the GN2 community for the comfort i received reading this and the related threads. i was feeling stuck and found my mojo again thanks to yous guys i can relate to the "vacation" too I put my guitars in a closet for 25 years; and i am so glad i did not sell them. 5 years ago i changed jobs and at the new place the folks from work would go out Wednesdays to a local bar that had Karaoke. I considered myself a shy person and could not imagine getting up to sing. Surprisingly the motivation came not from excessive lubrication but from a sense of loyalty to a homeboy. I grew up in the NY metropolitan area and my cousins lived a couple of blocks form Billy Joel. well the drunken idiots from work were murdering Piano Man  so i took their mike away and finished the song.......and the rest is history. i enjoyed singing so much that i started playing again. and as a side benefit gained confidence in my voice and got over my shyness to boot. as for singing and playing: it seems somewhat counter intuitive that songs i have difficulty with when just playing get easier if i sing while playing. the feel is there when the words come in and i can hear it internally as i play, in a different way than when just playing. this is probably gibberish.........it's hard to put into words Anyway it's good to know the GN2ers deal with the musical and psychological aspects of playing, as well as the technical side. Thanks for the support ;D |
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Post by sumgai on Oct 27, 2010 0:01:24 GMT -5
SurfaceHeat,
I'm the one who originally dropped the dime on "Effortless Mastery", here in the NutzHouse. So I guess that means that I'm elected to dish out "You're welcome, pardner!" ;D
I've just started re-reading it (again), after procurring my third copy. (Hint: do NOT lend this to any musician friends!!) I'm thinking of starting a thread to dissect and discuss the various nuances and implications of what Mr. Werner has espoused. Just thinking, so far......
sumgai
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Post by irwired on Oct 27, 2010 10:13:46 GMT -5
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Post by ozboomer on Feb 19, 2012 0:40:39 GMT -5
I'm the one who originally dropped the dime on "Effortless Mastery", here in the NutzHouse. ...and I'm assuming those of us following this discussion are aware of Guitar Zero: The New Musician and the Science of Learning by now... and it certainly has some good ideas for those of us trying to improve our 'brain plasticity' |
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Post by ozboomer on Feb 19, 2012 20:31:28 GMT -5
I've previously written about some of the changes I've made to my study/learning approaches... and I just thought it might be useful to provide an update... For those who came in late... I don't want to be a 'real' professional guitar player; rather, I started-out knowing some 'folk chords' and I wanted to play guitar a bit 'better' than that.. and to continually improve my playing. This comes down to broadly expanding my knowledge and technique... and try to get my fingers to do what my mind (and heart) tells 'em to do. ...thus... Up to date, my main focus has been to concentrate on understanding triads and how to play them in their inversions and across the fretboard. In general, progress has been quite slow, even before I stopped my lessons in 2010... and I felt like I was not getting too far; I found it difficult to remember where the triads/inversions were and the shapes/forms eluded me. In recent months, however, I've had a bit of a revelation... and that's mainly due to learning about the CAGED concepts. In short, the approach breaks-up the fretboard into areas where a certain shape of notes defines the layout of the 1-3-5 scale degrees of a major triad (and, with some minor mental gymnastics, the 1-b3-5 of a minor chord). There are 5 areas of the fretboard where these shapes are defined and once you learn them, you kind-of have the triad locations tossed. For me, learning about this approach has made things sit easier in my head and somehow matches the way I think. One of the real advantages of the approach is that this knowledge opens up a lot of info to explore for both rhythm and lead guitar.. and it does it in a gentle manner. There's a natural progression of knowledge that starts at the triads and moves through arpeggios and pentatonic scales to major/minor scales (or something like 'modes', if you like... but I'm not going to open THAT can of worms just now). All the inversions of a major triad give you an arpeggio. Add just 2 extra notes and the arpeggio becomes a pentatonic scale. Add 2 more extra notes and you have the complete scale ('mode'). So, things are a lot more manageable... and you might find things a lot easier to learn, as you're only adding to your knowledge in a slow, methodical way. For me, I can currently find any of the major triads in any of the 5 positions, across each string set on the fretboard (although, I'm still trying to remember the actual inversion 'labels'). I'm working on the arpeggios.. and I can find the pentatonic scales a lot easier now... and then it will be on to the complete scales. Talk about a wealth of 'note resources' that I now have available...(!) So, anyway, I'd just make the point that you probably need to explore a number of methods of learning until you find one (or a few) that suits you best. You probably need to talk to a teacher to help you find your way along the 'pro' path... but to keep things simple and within 'reach', I'm still sure you can 'go it alone' provided you keep an open mind and are prepared to try a few different methods (whether conceptual or via a book/web site). Just another instance of 'my $0.02' John |
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That's when you realize that your timing is not so "spot on" as you thought. And that affects your feeling for being able to whip out a 32 note riff in the next 4 beats. Trust me on this. 
So at some point before my IQ devolved from it's lofty high of equalling a raw carrot, I was smart, and wrote notes to myself. Musta been prescient, eh?
) Go here:
so i took their mike away and finished the song.......and the rest is history.