Waah Strat pickup report, Alnico-5 S.R.V Style

[ssstonelover]

Model: Waah City Limits SSS Alnico 5 Guitar Pickups Single Coil for ST style Guitars N/M/B Pickup S.R.V Style Blues
All Pickups are 52mm Spacing
Vintage Fiber in Black
Alnico Magnet in V
Heavy Build Coil Wire in AWG
RWRP for Middle Pickups
Vintage Cloth Lead
Resistance:
Neck-5.8K
Middle-6.0K
Bridge-9.0K

Within 2 weeks after installation the neck pickup ceased functioning. I removed and checked with multimeter.
-I found the black and while wires were fine (from one end to the other), but that there was no continuity between the black and white at the output side.
-I reflowed the solder on the bobbin forms but there was no continuity improvement (between the fine coil wire and hook up wires), the pickup was still dead.
-I checked the fine wire from the coil going the the bobbin form where the white and black wires are soldered, and both fine wires appear intact and unbroken.
-Working hypothesis is that there is a break or short in the coil itself, though as to why it would fail after a mere 2 weeks is unknown.

Waah has been totally uncooperative in assistance so far, despite the written warranty, so I can not in good conscience recommend that brand, and as Donlis make a similar product, which I have used successfully, I would suggest them as the rational alternative. Should the situation change and they honor the warranty, I'll update this report. I hope they are honorable.


If anyone has an idea of what to test next, let me know. For the moment I have ordered a replacement pickup from another brand, and am absorbing the financial hit.... Oh joy.
the DC resistance should read ~5.8K ohm, but as you can see I am showing no connection, so a break in the wiring somewhere.

Here is the pickup when inspected after failure, and then the pickup after reflowing the solder. First I reflowed to the bottom side (no change in resistance) and then added soldter to the top side just in case. There was no change, circuit is still unconnected, so a break in the wiring somewhere. I pulled back the cloth covering so you can see the leads are going correctly into the holes and so you can see the 42G coil wire is wrapped correctly into the holes as well.

[mikecg]

Tricky situation - as you have attempted a repair - the supplier will claim you have invalidated any warranty.

This situation is all too familiar to me - I ordered a guitar from Thomann this time last year (Christmas present). It arrived a week before Christmas with a neck joint problem - clamp screw 'threads' were pulled out. I had to make a decision to return it or repair it - trouble was that if I returned it, there was no guarantee that I would have the replacement in time for Christmas, so I repaired it and made a claim for compensation - needless to say - I'm still waiting!

If you are lucky with the warranty - problem solved!

If not - you may as well remove the coil protection tape and see if you can spot a wire break anywhere on the visible external windings. The next step would be to remove the coil and former - and start to unwind the coil - and good luck with that!

[gckelloch]

If you want to salvage the pickup, I don't think you need to remove the coil from the bobbin to unwind it. My guess would be to first submerge it in near-boiling water for a few minutes to remove most of the wax. Then place it in a clamp and unwind the wire from both ends until you find a break, and check the DCR b4 the break. Then, solder the good wire ends back to the lugs. It can be repotted at some point, but my old unpotted '65 Fender SC's didn't squeal unless I held the guitar close to a cranked guitar speaker. Maybe just spread some epoxy on the coil b4 you wrap the tape back on?

Regarding the SRV "Lenny" sound, I've gathered that it originally had the stock Fender '63 pickups. That would be HF 42AWG wire wound somewhere in the ~6k DCR range, but the AV pole alloy used starting in the early '60s was apparently a softer lower Gauss/Tesla formula specially made so the pole edges wouldn't chip when cut. That was supposedly the sole reason the earlier poles were beveled. In any case, two big factors in the Lenny sound were:

-Rene Martinez once stated that SRV insisted on recording with a cheap (maybe 25') Radio Shack coil cable, which I'd estimate to be between 1 - 1.5nF. That would put the resonance peak of each pickup in the ~2.5kHz range. SRV apparently used the middle pickup a lot.

-The second Lenny factor was that Fender used Aluminum pickguard shields in guitars from that era, eddy currents from which reduced the harsher upper mids without much affecting the highs. I use those and it does make a difference. With SRV's RS cable, that should end up decreasing mainly the upper portion of the resonance peak so the roll-off above ~2kHz was even steeper than without the shield.

Those factors combined with the lower Gauss poles gave the guitar very good clarity without the harshness, and even more so on whichever pickups had only the 250k Volume pot attached. I like to swap the 2nd tone pot to the bridge pickup and wire a resistor over the middle pickup. To get that SRV-like tone I just use a ~1n5F cap on my tone knobs with my ~2.5H SC pickups along a very low capacitance cable that extends the high-end about an octave when the knob is up, yet the Al shield still reduces the 3~3.5kHz harshness. I think SRV also used a rounded pick, which would soften/fatten the attack character as well.

For future reference, and if you want to retain the option for the SRV tonal peak and the extended highs on the bridge pickup, you might consider a Tonerider 'Pure Vintage' bridge pickup. It's wound with HF 42AWG wire to 2.6H, but the poles are AV on the bottom wound strings and AIII on the top plain strings for a less strident tone on the thin strings, and the stagger is modified for better string balance. Raising the coil on the treble side just right will give the high E a louder/fatter tone without that nasty string pull effect. Bridge Strat pickups tend to sound too piercing on the top strings, and that is a good solution -- perhaps first employed by Seymor Duncan, but Toneriders are inexpensive:

tonerider.com/product/pure-vintage/

[newey]

Factoring in your time and energy to repair this, I'd say just buy a new pickup. It's not like this thing is out of a '59 Goldtop and must be salvaged at all costs. . . Just sayin'

[ssstonelover]

Nov 8, 2023 17:35:06 GMT -5 mikecg said:

Tricky situation - as you have attempted a repair - the supplier will claim you have invalidated any warranty.

Actually they encouraged me to check the wiring.... "also can you try to fix it by yourself?" so it would be hypocritical for them to claim I did something against their wishes.
Their main claim is that I took some time to mount the set into a guitar, but for course I had to build the guitar, and in any case they say in their warranty, ""Quality assured: If you are not satisfied with the quality of the product, please contact us and we will give you a full refund. Durable and stylish: Crafted with high quality materials, the blues city limits collection is designed to last for years to come." In other words it would be hypocritical to say there is a time limit based on their own words.

[ssstonelover]

Nov 8, 2023 19:08:48 GMT -5 gckelloch said:

-You might consider a Tonerider 'Pure Vintage' bridge pickup....
-Regarding the SRV "Lenny" sound....
-If you want to salvage the pickup....

-Tonerider could be a very good choice, I like that they have a left hand stagger in keeping with the other (still functioning) pickups. I see the A3/5 pole pieces pickup is just on the bridge pickup, but that's fine, after all that tis where they are needed most. For the moment I have another brand coming to replace the neck pup, but I have heard good things about Tonerider, so soon I may try their set. Always a good trick to kill the shrill but keep a good balance of fullness and balance
-Thanks for sharing the 'Lenny' sound profile secrets and how to achieve that sound, good info for the future! I've got some necks and a ton of wood to convert into more bodies.
-Probably a futile battle to rewind the broken pickup, given that there are simpler solutions. Ah!

[ssstonelover]

Nov 8, 2023 20:30:02 GMT -5 newey said:

Factoring in your time and energy to repair this, I'd say just buy a new pickup. It's not like this thing is out of a '59 Goldtop and must be salvaged at all costs. . . Just sayin'

Indeed, I have another pup on the way, and just hope it 'plays well' with the rest of the still functioning other pups, as this guitar had an interesting sound, and was a lot more 'mid' focused and girth than my other Strat setups.

[gckelloch]

I forgot to add that the FB om Lenny was repeatedly replaced with Pau Ferro. I have two guitars with Pau Ferro FB's and the harder-than-Indian RW fibers tend to produce a bit brighter sound, but not quite as bright as Ebony. Some people think the FB wood doesn't matter, but that goes against the principles of damping. Indian RW is listed in the internet wood database as heavier than PF, but that could just be the resin/oil/mineral content -- all of which increase damping. It seems to me that Indian RW generally damps more than PF above ~4kHz, but not necessarily more below that. It makes sense that the Indian RW FB and Mahogany body would make for a bass and midrange strong guitar. I have a chambered LP-style African Mahog body guitar with a Mahog neck/Indian RW FB. It and any other guitar I've ever owned with an Indian RW FB tended to lack high-end sparkle. Including a '65 Strat that got stolen, that makes five such examples. A neck swap with a PF or Ebony FB might be in order. EVO frets might be good, too.

I wouldn't necessarily order the Pure Vintage set unless money isn't an issue. If the WAAH bridge PUP has 42AWG wire, it's gonna be in the 5H range and you'll be stuck with a ~2.5kHz roll-off point similar to a P90. Replacing a least one pot with a 500k would bring that peak level up a bit, but there's no chance of 4kHz+ sparkle for clean tones, possibly less so with the Indian RW FB. That's why I suggest just the Pure Vintage bridge PUP. I'd assume the other two in the set are enough like those already in the guitar that it's not worth replacing them.

Another even cheaper option would be to go with something from this guy: bootstrappickups.com/collections/s-style

He doesn't offer the modified vintage stagger or mixed pole magnets. He does have a 43AWG wire option, but I don't know if thinner wire increases note fundamental or output strength unless the bobbin is shortened so the flux lines from the string pass through more of the coil on both axis (i.e. Wilde Micro-Coils). It will, however, slightly decrease the Q (peak level). Adding more thinner wire to achieve that would of course increase inductance and limit the high-end extension.

[ssstonelover]

Nov 9, 2023 1:53:49 GMT -5 gckelloch said:

A neck swap with a PF or Ebony FB might be in order. EVO frets might be good, too.

I wouldn't necessarily order the Pure Vintage set unless money isn't an issue. If the WAAH bridge PUP has 42AWG wire, it's gonna be in the 5H range and you'll be stuck with a ~2.5kHz roll-off point similar to a P90. Replacing a least one pot with a 500k would bring that peak level up a bit, but there's no chance of 4kHz+ sparkle for clean tones, possibly less so with the Indian RW FB. That's why I suggest just the Pure Vintage bridge PUP. I'd assume the other two in the set are enough like those already in the guitar that it's not worth replacing them.

Another even cheaper option would be to go with something from this guy: bootstrappickups.com/collections/s-style

Thanks for all that. Swapping parts/necks around, string changes, etc., can be transformative.
The Bootstrap stuff looks interesting too.
Meanwhile Waah has not replied to by requests for warranty service....

[gckelloch]

I'm thinking that a slightly overwound Bootstrap bridge PUP coil of HF 43AWG would be fat enough to actually have stronger fundamentals and output. He is willing to make such a custom PUP on request, and I see no reason why he couldn't mix AV & AII or AIII poles if you want that. 8200 to 8600 winds should be in the 2.6 - 2.8H range, which along with the slightly lower Q of thinner wire would have good 4kHz+ sparkle with two 250k pots and a med to low C cable into a standard 1M input. He does actually use a modified vintage stagger, although I don't see the point of the high E pole being longer than the B when the coil is usually closer to the high E due to the FB radius. It's a fine point, but I'd prefer it down at the B level as with the Toneriders for a potentially sweeter high E sound.

Again, a ~1n5F tone knob cap will give it a variable 1.5~2kHz peak when the knob is below 5. I have that tone knob set up on my 2.8H Micro-Coil. I recommend a low C cable of 200pF or less b4 the first preamp/buffer stage for smooth extended highs when the tone knob is up. Bundles of varied cap or resistor values are cheap on Amazon. The cap type doesn't matter on guitars. You could wrap a ~500pF over a 1nF to get 1n5F.

[newey]

frets turned me onto Bootstrap pickups, and I have bought a few- but have yet to actually install them into a playing guitar, they sit idly among numerous uncompleted projects. So I can't speak to their sound, you'd have to ask frets for her takes. Since I bought mine, however, I note that their prices have increased and they're now talking wait times. So they may have been "discovered".

I will say that their customer service was good, and the pickups seem well-constructed from a purely visual inspection.

[gckelloch]

Bootstraps are all gonna be slightly different. The coil shapes vary somewhat because of hand-winding. Toneriders are CNC wound to be the same each time for a specific result, assuming the result is to your liking. I'd think more wire closer to the bobbin top than bottom would be more efficient, or a bulging middle might have increased transients and/or wave asymmetry as the flux lines move through the thicker coil portion. A concave middle might have the opposite effect? Such coil shapes may be possible by request. Either way, less of a tall coil may be "wasted" with higher permeable poles like AIII that pull the flux lines down more through it.

Regarding wire type: Bootstrap uses what he calls enamel wire with "ruby red" insulation. Judging from the color in the pickup pictures and what's commonly available and inexpensive, my guess is it's this wire type:
www.remingtonindustries.com/magnet-wire/magnet-wire-43-awg-heavy-build-enameled-copper-6-spool-sizes/

Quality "heavy" polyurethane-coated stuff from Elektrisola, the 43AWG is listed as 0.0027" thick, which is slightly thicker than the '50s era HF 43AWG listed as 0.0026":
www.remingtonindustries.com/magnet-wire/magnet-wire-formvar-copper-wire-43-awg-heavy-build-4-spool-sizes-available/

An ~8400 wind coil should then be ~12% fatter than one wound with the old PE (lacquered) 43AWG wire listed as 0.0024" thick:
www.remingtonindustries.com/magnet-wire/magnet-wire-plain-enamel-43-awg-5-spool-sizes-available/

...and much less likely to have any semi-shorts at the bobbin ends if not post-wind heated. Winders claim that heavy poly wire generally has more highs. That would explain why.

So, an ~8400 wind 43AWG Bootstrap should have slightly stronger note fundamentals and a smoother high-end than the Tonerider Pure Vintage bridge model for hopefully not much more $ for the same pole magnet configuration.  One difference is the Tonerider poles are beveled, while the Bootstrap pole edges look just rounded smooth.  Some say beveled poles create a slightly thinner sound.  The flux lines might pull in more to the center coming from a beveled pole to focus string pull in a smaller area.  That might increase upper harmonic emphasis in some way.  I might not prefer that.

OK, I think I've sufficiently beaten this horse corpse for now.  Curious to hear more about the Mahog guitar in future.

[ssstonelover]

Thanks  gckelloch for lots of pickup info. I should have a replacement pickup by Monday (though not from Tonerider or Bootstraps) so I can at least get the mahogany guitar up and running again....
At that time I can evaluate what, if anything, I can do about bringing up the trebles.
-A250K volume (could alter to 500K or use the 'bypass' mentioned below (something that works pretty well for me)
-A250K master tone (0.022uF cap) -- one idea is to substitute 0.015 or 0.012 cap to remove less highs even when set at "10", though likely there will be little difference at 10, just at low settings
-C1M PTB (.0022uF cap) -- another idea is to change the cap to 0.0018 to pull down the mids when pot is at "0", so I don't always have to run mids on the heavy side but can thin them out a bit
-I could add a 'bypass' 3-way DPDT on-on-on to get
1. Std volume and tone control on the knobs (switch down)
2. Std volume control with tone control bypassed entirely (switch mid)
3. Volume and tone both bypassed (pots removed from the circuit)
The wiring might look like this:

[gckelloch]

Nov 9, 2023 23:00:19 GMT -5 ssstonelover said:

Thanks  gckelloch for lots of pickup info. I should have a replacement pickup by Monday (though not from Tonerider or Bootstraps) so I can at least get the mahogany guitar up and running again....
At that time I can evaluate what, if anything, I can do about bringing up the trebles.
-A250K volume (could alter to 500K or use the 'bypass' mentioned below (something that works pretty well for me)
-A250K master tone (0.022uF cap) -- one idea is to substitute 0.015 or 0.012 cap to remove less highs even when set at "10", though likely there will be little difference at 10, just at low settings
-C1M PTB (.0022uF cap) -- another idea is to change the cap to 0.0018 to pull down the mids when pot is at "0", so I don't always have to run mids on the heavy side but can thin them out a bit
-I could add a 'bypass' 3-way DPDT on-on-on to get
1. Std volume and tone control on the knobs (switch down)
2. Std volume control with tone control bypassed entirely (switch mid)
3. Volume and tone both bypassed (pots removed from the circuit)
The wiring might look like this:

You won't get more highs with a lower value tone cap, but you can get a nice ~2kHz range boost below 5 with as low as a ~1nF cap depending on the pickup inductance.

First, try bypassing the tone cap with a wire and see if you hear any difference with the knob at 10.  I doubt there will be, but I do hear a difference between typical 10-47nF cap values and a low value like 2nF starting when the knob is below ~7.  There's more 1.5~2kHz because the peak boost starts to come into play even above 5.  It's a nice round "vocal" sound. You might prefer that to a high value unless you want very dark tones.

Lowering the cap value on the PTB will also decrease bass more, but  whatever works for you.

An easy solution for more treble would be a "no load" tone pot.  I doubt bypassing both pot resistances would be necessary, or desirable.  Pots can be altered to that by carefully opening and scrapping off some of the carbon near one of the lugs, but you'd have to look that procedure up.

BTW it's Waaah with 3 a's. Your bridge PUP does have HF 43AWG wire. At 9k, that should be ~3H. They have the same pole stagger as Tonerider, and the entire line looks to be a knockoff. I see no need to replace it if you are happy with the sound. At least the high E pole is down like the B, so it's not quite as thin sounding as a vintage stagger.

[ssstonelover]

Nov 10, 2023 1:01:55 GMT -5 gckelloch said:

You won't get more highs with a lower value tone cap, but you can get a nice ~2kHz range boost below 5 with as low as a ~1nF cap depending on the pickup inductace.  That might be more like 1.5kHz on the bridge PUP if it is indeed in the 5H range, assuming 42AWG wire. 
First try bypassing the tone cap with a wire and see if you hear any difference with the knob at 10.  I doubt there will be, but I do hear a difference between typical 10-47nF cap values and a low value like 2nF starting when the knob is below ~7.  There's more 1.5~2kHz because the peak boost starts to come into play even above 5.  It's a nice round "vocal" sound. You might prefer that to a high value unless you want very dark tones.

An easy solution for more treble would be a "no load" tone pot.  I doubt bypassing both pot resistances would be necessary, or desirable.  Pots can be altered to that by carefully opening and scrapping off some of the carbon near one of the lugs, but you'd have to look that procedure up.

Lowering the cap value on the PTB will also decrease bass more, but whatever works for you.

All good points regarding the master tone control...
-Given that the general pickup inductance (inferred from the DC resistances and more 'mid' prominent tone) I am already exceeding the 'darkness' level I like at "0", so I could certainly reduce the cap value (and achieve some more useful 'vocal roundness' possibly at "5", and maybe even have "0" be more useful too... The master tone is the Alan Entwistle Smoothtrak pot brought to my attention by Yogi link.
-I have used the no-load pot concept before as well, and like it, but I don't have one on hand at the moment.
-As far as bypassing both pots resistances, I've done this several times and not noticed issues, but it would be hard to generalize. However you do give me an idea. There is an unused lug on the on-on-on switch and that could be set up with a resistor to feed back some resistance so the volume pot is not entirely bypassed but effectively changed. (see drawing below with added green wire and pink resistor). I've never tried this or even know if it is useful but if you think it is a promising direction, I could set up the switch to accept such a 'partial' bypass with increased effective volume pot resistance when the pot is at "10" so the circuit 'thinks' it is seeing a higher value volume pot. Just a late night idea, I have not thought this through....or even know what value to choose. 

As far as PTB cap value, I'm relying on a conversation with JohnH at PTB rolloff. By his calculation, at "0" the reduction in bass is really not changed between different caps, but the mid range is. See his reply #3.
"What seems to happen as you reduce the bass-cut cap is that you still get about the same max low cut, but it starts to eat more into the mids too. Probably best to try some values, but here are plots with a 500k pot at max cut, with 2.2(solid blue), 1.5(green) and 1.0nF (red) cap. There are also 1.8nF and 1.2nF values in between."
And though the conversation was for a 500K pot I think it 'should also apply for C1M pots too (hopefully). I have no plot for C1M, just his plots for 500K.

Here is the sketch for the added resistor (added green wire and pink resistor)

[newey]

ssstonelover-

Let's get another set of eyes involved here, but I'm skeptical of the wiring to the bypass switch. The tone control looks like it will still be connected in either position of the bypass switch since the "OP" lug hosts both the link to the bypass and the link to the tone and PTB pots.

[ssstonelover]

Nov 10, 2023 7:02:31 GMT -5 newey said:

ssstonelover-
I'm skeptical of the wiring to the bypass switch. The tone control looks like it will still be connected in either position of the bypass switch since the "OP" lug hosts both the link to the bypass and the link to the tone and PTB pots.

Always good to be skeptical.
-On the second iteration (with the green wire) Master tone will connected (blue wire) to the OP lug, and now the ground side (green wire) is too....darn. Scratch that one.
Lesson to self "don't post drawings when dead tired late at night....and before review in the morning. Since that idea was some kind of dummy load to mimic a 500k or 1M pot at "10" it is a (partial) fail as it undoes the tone disconnect (no load).... Thanks for pointing that out.

-1st iteration (original drawing w/o green) the master tone is disconnected in 'mid' and 'up' switch position correctly I think, and meanwhile the PTS is still functional, which is nice, even when the volume pot is bypassed.

I suppose I could use a conventional no-load master tone (thus avoiding the need for an on-on-on switch altogether), but for bypassing volume or adding a dummy load I'd still need to do something clever.
I could try to do a mash-up of the current drawing with this old related one link (see Reply #6 posted May 16, 2021 at 5:31pm) and meanwhile adapted for the 10-way switch and PTB (maybe)....ah...

[newey]

1st iteration (original drawing w/o green) the master tone is disconnected in 'mid' and 'up' switch position correctly I think, and meanwhile the PTS is still functional, which is nice, even when the volume pot is bypassed.

No, it's always connected. I have taken your drawing and marked with a green crayon-like line the signal path for the tone pot, so you can see my meaning.

[gckelloch]

I'm not good with deciphering wiring, but it looks like you have some potential solutions. BTW, I assume that to convert the tone pot to a no-load, you just need to scrape off 1~2mm of carbon closest to the lug with the highest R-value. You can find that side with a meter after opening the pot up.

I should have checked using the GuitarFreak.xls b4 assuming the bass would drop more with a lower cap value in series...my bad.

Of course, the Master tone peak freq will change drastically depending on the PUP configuration. FI, with a 1n5F cap (incidentally, that's the way some engineers denote cap values so decimal points aren't accidentally overlooked) the peak at 0 will be ~2.3kHz for each PUP, but much higher for all in parallel, and much lower for all in series. I run separate cap values from each PUP to my tone knobs, and I don't use any series modes. That way the peak freq stays the same regardless of how many PUP's are engaged. You might be able to do that, but I don't know how you'd deal with the parallel modes unless caps could somehow be added b4 the other caps when in the series modes...das alotta caps.

One last thing regarding the PUPs: Now that you have four SC's with AV poles you could try pressing the top two or three poles from the opposing polarity side of the bridge and defective neck pickups together to lower the Guass a bit if you find the thinner plain strings too thin sounding. I think Antigua posted how to do that and recommended 2-5 seconds. I'd do 3 seconds so it doesn't drop too much, considering that the permeability doesn't compensate output like it would with AIII. An Nd or thick C8 magnet can be used to bring the Guass back up as many times as you want.

[ssstonelover]

Well, you outshine me on pickups, and how to 'aim' them to overcome issues, so I'll come back to this page for reference from time to time.

My replacement pickup came for the mahogany guitar and it fit in like 'butter'.
Here is one curious fact. The DC resistance is 6.4K, so higher than the one it replaced (about 5.8K) but the sound is no thicker and highs no less absent (though obviously not traditional bell-like), so the coil wire is either looser, has better separation due to thicker insulation on the wire, or god knows what.

I'm not going to have to add any special bypass switch I think -- though a no-load tone pot with a way smaller cap to limit treble drop-off is on the to-do list.
Also the PTB pot is working perfectly to tame thick bottom and heavy mid tones at 0. Instead of being 0.0022uF I am using 0.0018uF. I can get some very powerful rich sounds putting it at 10 and a bunch of the middle settings are good too, so it is not a one-trick pony, way useful.

Also the 2 and 4 pickup setting are going to get some use, as they will have the more 'open' sounds which while not bell-like are going to be more airy than the P-90 territory I am probing into with some of the other pickup setting (less dialing in the PTB settings).
This may be a good guitar, though only time will tell long after the first flush of excitement has subsided.

[gckelloch]

Yes, a looser coil might explain the higher DCR if the wind count is indeed the same. AFAIK, looser coils can also decrease inductance if the wider coil doesn't counter that. It might even have slightly lower inductance than the M PUP if that's the case. I doubt the wire is thicker than the HF 42AWG in the Waaah's. Temp also affects coil measurements. It may have been considerably warmer than the Waaah's when first measured.

I think AV and stronger Gauss poles tend to interfere with the string harmonics in a way that can make the sound less bell-like, but where and with what type of pick the string is plucked also comes into play. Another big factor is the resonance peak. The late Bill Lawrence determined a 4.2~4.5kHz peak range to be the "bell tone" and it sounds right to me, although all bells are not created equal. You can probably get that peak for each PUP with the right cable C value b4 the first preamp stage, but it will change for all the combined PUP settings. You could possibly then wire over a ~400pF C and/or 250~500k R to retain that peak range for the parallel 2 & 4 pos's if your toggle switch allows, but it would get very complicated for any more combined PUP settings.

Degaussing whichever string poles you want more bell-like may help, as the resulting tone will be "rounder". They can always be brought back up to max with a strong magnet. Coil height also matters a lot to get the attack to sustain and lower to upper note harmonic level to your liking.

To keep things even simpler: your call, but do you really need an all PUP's in series option? Be nice to have just one switch for all your PUP settings.

[ssstonelover]

To tell the truth, this particular pickup setup (higher wind SC A5's) is kind of new territory for me. On the other had I have tried this control setup on another guitar, so that part of the signal path is a known quantity.

The first impression (I played ~5 SC guitars one after another here at my house in a 15 minute span) is these pickups are pretty punchy and rich sounding, and that the PTB works great at almost any setting (depending on what flavor is required). There is quite a variety between 1,3,5 vs 2,4 vs the 4 series options, vs 1+3+5 and 1+5 so you do have to be ready to move the master tone and PTB tone to balance a lot more than just the pickups if you are looking for the best tones per pup setting. This may be more than what you want to do, but I don't mind 'riding the controls' to coax out cool sounds and I might even get good at it. These appear to be good 'rock' pickups.

-Compared to budget Chinese ceramic SC cheapies (not the high end ones, if some exist) these pickups are way better. The ceramics sound way flat whereas these seem to have a wider frequency range or more innate musicality organic element and dynamics. I guess those ceramics really kill the highs and flatten response....

-Compared to Duncan JB Jr/Duckbuster/Little '59 (wired to do HB parallel, HB series, and coil split SC) the difference is far smaller but these still seem to be (slightly) better, however that other guitar has old strings, so I should reserve judgment, and the SD setup can be dead quiet.

-Compared to the Donlis P90s the differences are not great either. Those can be punchy to lighter sounding but as the control layout is different, I can't compare apples to apples, and can only say a 3 pup guitar offers slightly more that a 2 pup one in variety. For sure the P90s are also good, but the smaller diameter bobbin of S-type SCs may coax a bit more high end out of the pup, so if pressed I might reach for that guitar first.

Degaussing or using a Alnico 5/2 pup, or Alnico 3, etc, are maybe in the future, as certainly I need to do more exploring there. Overall I have been focused on just about everything else over the pickups and their construction, thinking the controls would compensate and that most pickup claims were a bunch of hot air and silly 'cork sniffing'. Now that I have the controls pretty much worked out, the way I like I can start to see what pickup changes and types can bring to the table.

[gckelloch]

Nov 11, 2023 2:57:23 GMT -5 ssstonelover said:

To tell the truth, this particular pickup setup (higher wind SC A5's) is kind of new territory for me. On the other had I have tried this control setup on another guitar, so that part of the signal path is a known quantity.

The first impression (I played ~5 SC guitars one after another here at my house in a 15 minute span) is these pickups are pretty punchy and rich sounding, and that the PTB works great at almost any setting (depending on what flavor is required). There is quite a variety between 1,3,5 vs 2,4 vs the 4 series options, vs 1+3+5 and 1+5 so you do have to be ready to move the master tone and PTB tone to balance a lot more than just the pickups if you are looking for the best tones per pup setting. This may be more than what you want to do, but I don't mind 'riding the controls' to coax out cool sounds and I might even get good at it. These appear to be good 'rock' pickups.

-Compared to budget Chinese ceramic SC cheapies (not the high end ones, if some exist) these pickups are way better. The ceramics sound way flat whereas these seem to have a wider frequency range or more innate musicality organic element and dynamics. I guess those ceramics really kill the highs and flatten response....

-Compared to Duncan JB Jr/Duckbuster/Little '59 (wired to do HB parallel, HB series, and coil split SC) the difference is far smaller but these still seem to be (slightly) better, however that other guitar has old strings, so I should reserve judgment, and the SD setup can be dead quiet.

-Compared to the Donlis P90s the differences are not great either. Those can be punchy to lighter sounding but as the control layout is different, I can't compare apples to apples, and can only say a 3 pup guitar offers slightly more that a 2 pup one in variety. For sure the P90s are also good, but the smaller diameter bobbin of S-type SCs may coax a bit more high end out of the pup, so if pressed I might reach for that guitar first.

Degaussing or using a Alnico 5/2 pup, or Alnico 3, etc, are maybe in the future, as certainly I need to do more exploring there. Overall I have been focused on just about everything else over the pickups and their construction, thinking the controls would compensate and that most pickup claims were a bunch of hot air and silly 'cork sniffing'. Now that I have the controls pretty much worked out, the way I like I can start to see what pickup changes and types can bring to the table.

Yeah, I tend to make guitar knob and switch changes a lot while I play. Incidentally, I use a fairly large Cap value on my V knob treble bleeds as a makeshift bass cut. The Inductance values of your Waaah set are actually pretty standard early '60s Strat with the exception of the 43AWG wire on the bridge and it being just slightly higher than average. 9k of 43AWG would be the same as ~6.8k of 42AWG. I think the inductance ends up lower with thinner wire, so it might even be ~2.8H. That's not really high for an early Strat.

The higher conductivity of the Steel poles in ceramic-powered pickups rolls off the highs. The much higher permeability of Steel also increases inductance compared to AlNiCo's.  The stock ceramic-powered set that came in my Rondo SX "Vintage" S-type were wound to ~4.5k DCR, likely with 42AWG wire.  The Inductance measured ~2.3H with my LCR meter, which may have been a bit off as it wasn't designed to measure low inductance coils.  I preferred them to the stock AV set that came with my Agile ST-625EB, which had virtually the same inductance at ~6k DCR.  The SX PUPS had flat poles and the Gauss at the top felt substantially weaker when pulling a screwdriver off, but they were substantially louder with notably less high-end.  Using at least one 500k pot would have made them sound more like the AV set, yet louder and less harsh.  They would definitely have more high-end than a typical P90, Duncan JB Jr or Little '59 with the same pot values.  Steel screw core P90's are in the 6~8H range.  Those other two are also a good bit higher inductance than 2.3H, but flat Steel poles can make pickups sound fatter/warmer if the Steel screws on other pickups are thinner and/or up higher.

[ssstonelover]

I don't hate ceramic pickups, they have their place, and like you say, it's all a matter of the tailoring of the elements, but overall these AV Waah pickups were a revelation (more tone spectrum)
I think I will chase down some more sets with varying inductance / DC characteristics, from some of the makers you brought to my attention and even from Donlis (Antigua likes them). Donlis actually publishes their inductance values.

Today I rewired the tone cap on the master tone pot from .0022 to .0012 uF. This may have brightened the tone even when the 250K tone pot was set at "10", a little anyway, but more importantly, given that these pickups tended to be a little less 'sparkly', the .0022 cap was too far down into a tone territory that lack personality or 'guitar sound', and now the full range from 0-10 (in the pot rotation) is decent/good/excellent depending on whatever else is going on (given that I have both series and SC positions).

Edit: I just discovered where the "Henries" are on my multimeter and for fun just checked one of the many cheap ceramic SC pups I have laying around. 3.99 H with resistance at 6.2K Ohm.
Too bad I did not check the AV pickups I have in the guitar....before wiring them in. I'm sure any reading I'd get on the jack now would be tainted by all the other stuff (pots, etc.)
Anyway now I can start checking stuff for inductance before installation, to get a better sense of what to expect and predict result-wise on a given guitar.

[gckelloch]

Nov 12, 2023 23:48:05 GMT -5 ssstonelover said:

I don't hate ceramic pickups, they have their place, and like you say, it's all a matter of the tailoring of the elements, but overall these AV Waah pickups were a revelation (more tone spectrum)
I think I will chase down some more sets with varying inductance / DC characteristics, from some of the makers you brought to my attention and even from Donlis (Antigua likes them). Donlis actually publishes their inductance values.

Today I rewired the tone cap on the master tone pot from .0022 to .0012 uF. This may have brightened the tone even when the 250K tone pot was set at "10", a little anyway, but more importantly, given that these pickups tended to be a little less 'sparkly', the .0022 cap was too far down into a tone territory that lack personality or 'guitar sound', and now the full range from 0-10 (in the pot rotation) is decent/good/excellent depending on whatever else is going on (given that I have both series and SC positions).

Edit: I just discovered where the "Henries" are on my multimeter and for fun just checked one of the many cheap ceramic SC pups I have laying around. 3.99 H with resistance at 6.2K Ohm.
Too bad I did not check the AV pickups I have in the guitar....before wiring them in. I'm sure any reading I'd get on the jack now would be tainted by all the other stuff (pots, etc.)
Anyway now I can start checking stuff for inductance before installation, to get a better sense of what to expect and predict result-wise on a given guitar.

Yeah, even my 4H AlNiCo II pole Wilde L200SL sounds a bit dark with two 250k pots. Steel poles would make it that much darker.

You sure you swapped a 0.0022uF/2n2F cap for a 0.0012uF/1n2F cap? If you used a 0.012uF/12nF cap, you'd be getting a horn-like ~800Hz peak when the knob is down. Can be nice, but I was recommending a ~1n5F cap. 1nF2 can work fine too for a ~2.5kHz peak. The point is to try to keep the peak out of the harsh 3-3.5kHz range.

I found an interesting SRV article with some direct quotes from him, Rene Martinez, and others about the Lenny guitar. The original neck may have actually been a '62. They seem to think it had a thin Brazilian RW FB. Not that whatever tonal brightness it may have had would matter much with all the other factors in play. I don't know if I believe that the original PUP's were rewound, but who knows? Again, even 20% inductance differences wouldn't matter much with his high C coil cable:

www.fuzzfaced.net/srv-stratocaster-brazilian.html

The PUP poles in the original Lenny at the WG museum are definitely not beveled. As to the Gauss, I can not find confirmation. Perhaps the reports of weaker Gauss AV are greatly exaggerated? Lotta misinfo about.

[ssstonelover]

Nov 13, 2023 1:28:06 GMT -5 gckelloch said:

You sure you swapped a 0.0022uF/2n2F cap for a 0.0012uF/1n2F cap? If you used a 0.012uF/12nF cap, you'd be getting a horn-like ~800Hz peak when the knob is down. Can be nice, but I was recommending a ~1n5F cap. 1nF2 can work fine too for a ~2.5kHz peak. The point is to try to keep the peak out of the harsh 3-3.5kHz range.

Yup, I wired 2 x .0056uF caps in parallel and checked with the multimeter, and the value was .0012uF on the meter.
I do have an Emerson .0015uF cap somewhere, but I wanted to get on with the project and had good luck with this value before.
I suppose I could have really gone crazy and rigged up a multi-cap switching system (after drilling another hole on the body for an additional switch if I really wanted to trial more stuff (or do the old alligator clip trick of hanging parts [caps] out of the back while doing some value and sound checking), but this seemed satisfactory. 

[gckelloch]

That would be 0.012uF/12nF. So you get a ~800Hz peak with each 2.4~2.8H PUP. That's not an uncommon option. Hope it works out for you.

[gckelloch]

In case you want to try that 1n5F cap on the tone knob of a guitar with ~2.8H pickups, I used my fav Park 75 type amp model sound with two "transparent" overdrive plugins in front with an old DI recording of my Agile ST-625EB S-type guitar with a Wilde 2.8H Micro-Coil in the bridge, and I used a thick hard plastic pick with 10-46 strings. The guitar had a mid-weight Alder body and an Ebony FB. It had great bass response and articulation, but I have since swapped the body for a heavy Roasted Ash one and used the pickups in a pine body hardtail project.

The speaker IR is of a Soldano 4x12 cab with Weber 1230-55 speakers-- like the pre-rola Celestion G12H30-55Hz, but with cloth surrounds that absorb some harsh upper-mid peaks without killing the open 4kHz+, and is not as aggressively harsh as the G12H30-55 "Blackback". It has a fairly flat response out to ~5.5kHz and rolls off more gradually than a typical 75Hz Celestion. I just had to EQ down the bass response of the IR so the low and high end are essentially equal in level. There's just a bit of a hall-type reverb with some tail modulation giving it a subtle chorusing effect:

drive.google.com/file/d/1xhnOQAwR7ZofCyN5Y_EybzmB17jGn4DT/view?usp=sharing

I hadn't quite found all my fav spots on the tone knob. The most mellow settings are between 4 & 6, but I didn't set it to the most mellow sounding 4.5 and later discovered I prefer the slightly rounder peak at 1.5 to all the way down to 1. Notice it has a sort of Oboe-like quality at 6. That spot gives the pickup no peak with a very linear roll-off starting at ~1.5kHz. The most typically 7~8H P90-w/500k-pots-like to my ears is between 2 & 3, although the guitar has 250k pots (to moderate the higher Q) with the outer tone pot lug grounded. Hopefully, the demo will be of some use.

[ssstonelover]

I have to say the bridge pickup and the settings sound pretty good through the entire range, at least to the limits of the tinny computer speakers I have hooked up!
Looks like you found your sound.

I often have trouble with Strat type guitars on the bridge pickup (shrillness) unless I use something heavily overwound, or unless I have the tone control way down, but I doubt the Wilde 2.8H pickup is even approaching overwind territory, though may be skirting it. It just is a better design evidently.

Thanks for that, it's instructive on how to play around with the elements.

[gckelloch]

Nov 16, 2023 18:19:04 GMT -5 ssstonelover said:

I have to say the bridge pickup and the settings sound pretty good through the entire range, at least to the limits of the tinny computer speakers I have hooked up!
Looks like you found your sound.

I often have trouble with Strat type guitars on the bridge pickup (shrillness) unless I use something heavily overwound, or unless I have the tone control way down, but I doubt the Wilde 2.8H pickup is even approaching overwind territory, though may be skirting it. It just is a better design evidently.

Thanks for that, it's instructive on how to play around with the elements.

Thanks. It is still a tad shrill when the tone is up all the way, and that's with the Brightness knob on the "The Stealer" amp model in the S-Gear software down all the way. I actually prefer a JTM45/100 sound with KT66 tubes to a Park 75 (Marshall "Major") sound with KT88 tubes, but it is pretty nice and I really like that Weber 1230-55 speaker sound.

The 2.8H Micro-Coil has ~1/3 less winds than a 2.8H AlNiCo pole pickup. The high permeable core alloy increases inductance much more than AlNiCo. The coil wire is 46AWG. I think the Gauss at the pole screw tops is about like AlNiCo II. That with the stronger lows and smoother resonance make it less harsh than an AV pole pickup of 42AWG wire. There may also be something about the very small ~1/8" square coil and geometry of the magnetic circuit that improves overall clarity. The adjustable screws allow for a very specific tonality and output per string and the AC hum is almost non-existent. I recommend them in general, but there are a few issues that need addressing.

BTW, I just watched a few older TPS episodes on YT with guest blues artist Matt Schofield. The expensive custom AIII pickups in his signature SVL '61 Daytona guitar are essentially the same spec as the Waaah/Tonerider Surfari sets, right down to the pole stagger. Not sure what it is specifically, but I find his ideas and sound completely captivating, and he is so inspiring in how he approaches playing. Makes me wish I never compared myself to others and just followed my own path more.