2 volume 1 tone on a strat

[monradon]

I am building a strat that i want to have two volume controls with one tone control . My question is on a push pull pot its just two pots right and by pulling you adjust on and pushing adjust the other ?? my thought is one side for tone on neck and middle and the other for tone on the bridge thats why my plan for two volume controls , on for two pickups and the other for bridge only. Is push pull the way to go and if this will not work please tell me why and is there a shematic for this . Laughing is allowed

[JohnH]

Hi Monradon

A push/pull pot is just a single, ordinary type pot with a separate switch which you control by pushing and pulling. The switch is not connected to the pot and can have a function that is nothing to do with the pot, depending on what you want it to achieve.

Your idea of two volume controls and one tone seems like it would be more useful than the usual 1 volume and two tones, if for example you want to set a reduced neck/middle rhythm volume, and a higher bridge volume for lead.

Are you happy with just a single tone control that affects all settings? - I would be, since I don't use them anyway!

If the above is what you have in mind, then its good news, you can basically do that by rewiring a standard Strat, with no new parts. I had a look on the Seymour Duncan Site and was surprised that such a useful arrangement was not listed.

The idea would be to use the two halves of the standard 5-way switch:

The first half selects N, M or nothing, and the output feeds through the Neck/middle volume control.

The Bridge is connected directly to its own volume control

The second half of the switch selects the output of the NM volume control, in positions 1 and 3 (and 2), or the output of the bridge volume ( position 5).

That would be the basic idea. Does it make any sense so far?

With the stock pots, the tone control would be after the volume controls. Thats fine if you don't use it much in combination with the volume control. Its a bit better (more consistent) to have tone controls before volume controls, and in this set-up, that would mean a dual-gang pot (two pots on one shaft), or a concentric dual pot (two pots, each with its own knob) so that each volume control has its own half.

Treble bleed caps/resistors would complete the design.

what do you think?

John

[monradon]

Hey thats great did not think of this got a schematic in mind ?? I am at [e-mail].

[JohnH]

I don't have one drawn, but could do one. what do you think about the tone control - ie how do you like to use it?
J

[monradon]

Yes it relly is making me think , now just got to find some pots that are what they say they are 250. not 150. ??

[JohnH]

THe question is, one tone pot or two on a concentric shaft? and do you use the tone controls at reduced volume? the issue is that a tone control after the volume control, when reduced volume is set, cuts very deeply into the treble. If you do this, then a dual (ganged or conecentric) tone control is better with these two volme conrols.

Im also thinking that 500k pots may be better for this set up - less loading on the pups.

John

[monradon]

I am all ears sounds like something I would like to try also you are saying you put the tone before the volume ??

[JohnH]

Tone pot before the volume pot gives more consistent tone control at different volumes, but with two volume controls you need two tone pots (or oe dual one). thats why Im asking about how you use the tone control. Do you need seperate tone controls or just one master one? Do you use tone controls at all?

cheers

John

[monradon]

We use the tone controls all the time , never have tried the other way. Do you use a capacitor checker at all I am curious if they are as far off as the pots are ??

[JohnH]

OK, then I think the best scheme will be two single pots for volume and a dual-gang 500k for tone. I can make a diagram if you would like. Caps ae hard to check without special equipment, and have a fairly wde tolerence. But also the exact value is not super critical in a guitar circuit.

John

[monradon]

Just thought maybe they are as out of whack as the pots I have been running into.

[JohnH]

monradon - take a look at this:



Its the wiring diagram, as seen from the back of the pick-guard.

The switch positions are as standard. N. NM. M. MB. B

Theres two volumes, one for N and M, and the other for B

A single tone control, wired using a dual gang pot to keep the tone control consistent at all volumes. It's a 500k log. The tone caps are your choice, and you could have a different one for B and for NM, but it doesn't switch between them. I'd say 22nF (=0.022uF) is a good starting point unless you have firm view.

The volume controls could be 250k, or 500k for a bit more brightness - your choice.

There is a treble bleed capacitor/resistor on each volume control. These keep the treble as the volume is reduced. Recommended values are 1nF and 220k, but you could omit these if you don't find this a problem.

This is quite a simple scheme, no fancy switching, so theres scope for adding more complexity with push/pull switched etc if you want.

Lets ask Unk to check it!

EDIT is your 5-way switch laid out like that?

22 November 2006: Diagram revised based on comments (thanks) from Unk and Chris

John

[monradon]

Hey this is great what sizes for the treble bleed caps One other question is the 22nF nanofarad ?? or do you mean its the same size as a .o22uF been awhile since my electronic classes haven't done anything with cap sizes in a lonnnnng time. Going to have to visit Australia between archery (4-H Coach) and here have met alot of people.

[UnklMickey]

johnh said:

...Lets ask Unk to check it!...

it basically looks right to me.

the drawing implies that the bridge ground is connected to the low lug of the neck/mid volume pot. while it will make VERY little difference, it really should connect directly to the case of the volume pot.

i'm sure you know, in the M+B if either volume is turned to minimum, it will kill the sound from both pickups. but, this is probably a better choice than reversing the volume controls.

i have 22nF and 250k (audio taper) for tone controls on my MiM Strat, and that works well. so i'd say if you can't find a 500k dual for the tone control, 250k will work just fine.

a 22nF cap is a little on the small side for use with single-coils. it won't make the dark "Jazz" tone cut, but on the positive side when you turn the tone pot all the way to minumum you get a bit of an upper midrange peak. that makes it sound just a little brighter than when the control is almost at minimum. i do find this useful, especially in the M+B position, so i'm planning to keep it the same.

i'd be a little concerned about 250k pots affecting the tone of the M+B position, because in that case both volume pot would be in parallel, so i'd probably take the safe route and use 500k.


Monradon,

0.022uF is just another way of saying 22nF.

it would be like saying 0.022k ohms instead of 22 ohms.

cheers,

unk

[JohnH]

Thanks for checking. Chris has also pointed out the tone control is wired backwards. Ill fix the diagram later.

The treble bleed cap is 1nF = 0.001uF. This is a value for personal choice, but is my suggestion. If were building it, I would agree with 500k for volume pots, but I think 250k is OK, if you have the 500k tone pot that I suggest.

John

[UnklMickey]

johnh said:

...Chris has also pointed out the tone control is wired backwards....

yikes! how did i miss that?

kudos Chris.

[JohnH]

I’ll be updating the basic drawing later, but I also had a thought about an enhanced scheme:

This would be to use two push-pulls on the volume pots (or separate DPDT toggles), one to reverse the bridge phase, and the other to put the bridge in series with the other two.

With the series and phase switches in, it is exactly as currently designed, with N, N+M, M, M+B, B combinations.

Pull the series switch, and I would have BxM, BxM, BxM, Bx(M+N), BxN.

The series sounds give extra drive and a near to humbucker effect. The first three setting are all the same, but that is a result of using the standard 5-way switch. A wide range is available overall.

This is basically the Strat-Lovers-Strat (see schematics page), but with the essential extra of separate volume controls. These would be very powerfull in the series and out of phase (OoP) combos.

Eg, set a bridge sound, and dial in a bit of extra bass by adding some of the neck.
Or, make a funky OoP sound, but reduce one pup so more bass is preserved.
Or, have a muted N+M setting and pull the series to add 100% bridge in series for a lead.

I think this could be a killer. I have an old Ibanez Strat lying around, looking for a design and this could be it.

John

[JohnH]

The basic 2 volume diagram is now updated, see above.

Heres my 'Plus' version, described in the previous post. I think it has an optimum density of wiring. It reminds me of the London Underground or the freeway system in LA



To make it clearer, the switch parts of the push-pulls are shown on the side instead of the back of the pot case.

cheers
John

[monradon]

JohnH what do i owe you ?? Need anything form South Dakota Snow ??

[JohnH]

monradon - some snow would be really nice!. The temperature around Sydney hit 40C yesterday, thats 104F!

No charge - what I like about this forum is that ones guys wish list sparks off a train of thought that leads to a new design. And now I have a design for my Ibanez that I didn't have before. What do you think of the plus version? the basic one is fine too.

BTW, Ive uploaded a slight amendment to the 'plus' design, and I still think it needs more checking, but I wanted to show you what may be possible in case you were ordering parts etc.

John

[ChrisK]

"Way up north where the huskies go,
Please don't eat that yellow....."

I lived north of Fairbanks (near Fox) from May 1970 to Nov 1971 so I know that it's sage advice.

[JohnH]

but sage is green

I made a couple more changes to the wiring diagram, which I think is probably OK now. This is the schematic that I'm using:



and the wiring:



Yesterdays version still had some hanging coils, but I think they are OK now

John

[monradon]

JohnH you guys would believe the wood I found for the top a nice quilted maple and a nice alder back. Also I have a vision to mount this all without a pickguard going to have to do a scrapbook . Did I lose the picture of the shematic you fixed before you put the extra switch in it I can not seem to find it , I have the one where you said the tone was wired wrong but can not seem to find the one where it is wired right.

[JohnH]

Monradon - sounds like this will be a nice piece of work.

The basic, corrected two volume Strat is where I first posted it on page 1 of this thread. Once Unk and Chris had commented, I changed the diagram that it was linked to, and noted in my post that I'd edited it. No point in leaving bad diagrams floating around on the internet!

On this page is the 'plus' version with two extra push/pulls. I intend to try that one on a an Ibanez that has been lying around.

One thing to watch for if you are thinking of not having a pickguard, it to make sure the pot shafts are long enough, or the top surface is thin enough. A lot of pots only seem to be able to deal with about a 3/16" panel thickness max, allowing for a nut.

cheers
John

[monradon]

Thanks again , that was the one I printed out and I couldn't find anything wrong with it so was wondering what I was missing. I picked up a book Guitar Electronics for Musicians by Donald Brosnac and is really explaining things I always wondered about and kind of ties everything together for me . Getting just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

[monradon]

JohnH you should put both versions in the shematics section

[UnklMickey]

yeah, what Don said.

[JohnH]

Thanks, I put these in the schematics section, see here:
guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=schem&thread=1165712655

cheers

John