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Post by JohnH on May 20, 2006 21:25:59 GMT -5
Here's one for the muso-historians and senior 'Boomers.
Ive been listening to some early Stones and wondering what was the earliest example of what we would now call rock music? - probably before such a term was coined.
Im thinking specifically 'rock', not 'rock and roll', 'beat', 'skiffle', 'surf, or 'rockabilly'
Or should I really be thinking of something like 'Hard rock', and 'rock' is a general term that covers all of these and others?
Clearly, by Woodstock - it was established and celebrated as a genre. Also, Im pretty sure it did not exist when I was born (1960) and that I did not pay attention when it hapened, being more interested in what Dr Who and Batman was up to and where my next copy of Beano was coming from.
John
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Post by Ripper on May 21, 2006 1:09:26 GMT -5
I believe the first R&R song was " Rocket 88 " It was written in 1951 by Ike Turner and his band " The Kings of Ryhthm" I crank it in the car from time to time!  |
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Post by quarry on May 21, 2006 7:03:23 GMT -5
I remember in the early '70s when the first of what I call "hard rock" bands became popular... I'm speaking of groups like Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath (must have been an English thing?)... Now these may not be the first, but they were definitely the ones that caught my attention, and has some serious impact on my love of music, and guitar!  PS - it might be argued that Iron Butterfly was the first "hard rock" group... which then begot Captain Beyond! |
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Post by sumgai on May 21, 2006 15:07:00 GMT -5
quarry, Captain Beyond springing from the loins of Iron Butterfly? You better call the pharmacy, your drugs have been mixed up!  Lee Dorman was the IB bassist, sure, but he was such a minor player that he didn't count for a hill of beans in whatever project he found himself in after IB. Lee Reinhardt was a guitarist for IB for a short time, but he certainly was not on any of their halcyon recordings - only Erik Brann can make that claim. Sadly for Doug Ingle/Iron Butterfly, after Erik left, they went through just about every guitar player in California, over the decades. If you can string letters together to make a name, said name was probably a guitar-plunker in IB for at least a few minutes. I think I've met or played with at least 14, maybe 15, players who claim to have been in IB sometime in it's multi-hued past. A few of them provided some corroborating evidence, so I'm forced to take their word for it, albeit with a few grains of salt.  I'm not even sure I'd put each group's music in the same genre, or sub-genre of Rock. Perhaps if you gave me the number of your pharmacy.......? ;D sumgai |
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Post by quarry on May 21, 2006 15:17:53 GMT -5
OK, it was a stretch, at best... but its only a lie if you don't believe it (or something like that)...  Now don't misunderstand me; just because I borrowed their image (avatar), I'm not necessarily a raving CB fan. On the other hand, as a 17 year old (back in '74), upon hearing "Raging River of Fear", I was never quite the same... ;D At our age, maybe the mantra should be: Marriage, pharmaceuticals, and rock 'n' roll! |
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Post by sumgai on May 21, 2006 15:28:55 GMT -5
John, My memory isn't so good anymore. Would you please be so kind as to describe what encompasses "Rock"? I would pre-date it well before Alan Freed's eponymous moment in history, when he coined the term 'rock-n-roll'. Perhaps even deep's "Rocket 88" qualifies, if you're willing to settle for the re-labeling of something that had formerly been known as "racial music". Therein, many black players of the day would add strongly accented beats or rhythms to otherwise standard arrangements, turning them in to what that era's grey-hairs called "the Devil's music". ;D Personally, I'd start with Link Wray, but even he didn't spring full-blown onto the scene as a rocker, he was already something of a small-time country recording star when he went out on a limb one night. (And the rest of that one is history, I'm sure you'll agree.) In short, limiting the definition of rock to not be 'rock-n-roll' or anything else, is extremely short-sighted, if you're looking for a full history of music that speaks to one's soul. Hlll, even Freed derived 'rock-n-roll' from "rockabilly", a term used by country music DJ's at the time to distinguish that from what was being called "country swing" music. (Think Bob Wills or Tex Ritter here.) If you want to go back only so far as when 'rock' was first used as a marketing tool (the "-n-roll" wasn't dropped until about 1967 or so), then be my guest, but I think you're shortchanging yourself, and perchance other members here, too. Your thoughts, please. sumgai p.s. Beano is something one takes to prevent flatulence. Not an item I'd think of as worthy of being copied, let alone being sought after as a kid.  |
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Post by ChrisK on May 21, 2006 18:33:38 GMT -5
Pencil holes in a speaker's cone,
Combined with the abuse of a stroll,
Can get one banned from radio play,
For thing's "instrumental" in rock 'n roll
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on May 21, 2006 18:45:55 GMT -5
Pencil holes in a speaker's cone, Combined with the abuse of a stroll, Can get one banned from radio play, For thing's "instrumental" in rock 'n roll Yep. I wish I could find a decent bass tab for that someplace. Even those members who weren't around in 1959 have heard the song, if you've seen the movie "Independance Day." I think it got used in one other soundtrack, too. Quite an easy progression. Fire up your reverb box from the beginning, and then crank the tremolo box for the outtro. |
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Post by sumgai on May 21, 2006 22:15:53 GMT -5
Doug, Are you back, man? We were getting a little concerned here, buddy. Nice to have you back in the mix again. Did ya see that Bam has re-surfaced too? Ciao for now! sumgai |
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Post by JohnH on May 22, 2006 7:56:45 GMT -5
I think what I am searching for, without knowing how to refer to it, is the moment when what had become rather wholesome, twangy, popular music turned into something more powerfully dirty. Probably early to mid sixties. Not looking to redefine any genres here!
BTW, in the UK, The Beano was a comic book popular with the under 10's.
J
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Post by UnklMickey on May 22, 2006 11:55:03 GMT -5
hi John,
you did a pretty good job of specifying what you don't want to include.
Chuck Berry, Bill Haley, Buddy Holley, Jerry Lee Lewis, Elvis, et all, would have of course been excluded.
They fit under the category of rock and roll, (or in a couple of cases rockabilly)
so i guess you're looking for stuff like Iron Butterfly, Vanilla Fudge, the Bob Seegar System, etc.
am i right to assume that stuff like Question Mark and the Mysterians ("96 Tears") and the Animals (Eric Burden) would be not included because they would be too "pop"?
what about the Spencer Davis Group. i don't know about the chronology or whether they fit.
the Who probably defininely fit, but i don't know how early they are.
hard to say with groups like the Beatles and the Stones.
they eventually fit, but their early stuff ...not so much.
definitely a hard question to answer.
sure is an interesting exploration, though.
unk
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Post by JohnH on May 22, 2006 15:51:25 GMT -5
Thanks Unk - I think you have the idea of what I was getting at. The Who are a candidate. I think the 'Stones got there before the Beatles. The others Im not so familiar with, and so I'll find out about them.
cheers
John
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Post by UnklMickey on May 22, 2006 16:37:52 GMT -5
John,
if it fits, Louie Louie was certainly early.
released in 1963 by the Kingsmen, it was originally written by Richard Berry in 1955.
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Post by ChrisK on May 22, 2006 19:50:26 GMT -5
Those original were oft those uncared for.
To history lost they are.
History doth capture what current thinks matters.
I spent many a night futzing w/ my home-built toob fuzz box in the early 60's, making noises intolerable (I got A LOT of requests from my parents). 5 years later, such "noise" was all that and more.
Unfortunately, I still have to rent my audience, since I care mainly for noise unrepentant.
And like most, no place in history is deserved!
The Who, when "Live at Leeds", with "Boris" amuck on the board.
IB, you bet, saw them live when I could. "Frets, I don't need no stinkin' frets."
And the Swamp Rats weren't all that bad.
There were many afoot and amuck in the late 50's, but the home studio was not.
Best of luck in defining "first", what one sees depends on how one "looks".
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Post by UnklMickey on May 22, 2006 20:02:59 GMT -5
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Post by Runewalker on May 22, 2006 20:24:59 GMT -5
Hendrix, when he played with the Isley Brothers, way before Chas Chandler found something to do after the demise of the Animals. Don't know about the First Stone ("Rock"]. But the genesis of metal, two years before Black Sabbath was even a glimmer in Ozzy's beer stein --- Blue Cheer, whose sole objective was to be the loudest 3 piece on the planet, musicianship be d@mned. Named for a batch of Owlsley's acid, which in turn was named for a box of laundry detergent. Now that's history. Vincebus Eruptum. .... Live at Leeds? Pete stole the idea for remaking Eddie Cochran's Summertime Blues from Blue Cheer. Albeit Pete eventually bested their loudest band claim, and has the tinnitus to prove it.  |
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Post by sumgai on May 23, 2006 3:43:34 GMT -5
John,
OK, you're defining psychedelic rock. The British blues revival and emancipation led up to it, but that style is definitely rooted and traceable - you want what had never been seen before, and impacted all music ever to come afterwards.
The seminal starting point for that would be..... none other than the Beatles - Rubber Soul. To be more specific, Tax Man would be the springboard from which all psych rock can be traced, even Blue Cheer's Summertime Blues, coming as it did nearly two years later.
And we owe it all to Ravi Shankar and Indian dope! ;D
sumgai
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Post by Ripper on May 23, 2006 11:16:09 GMT -5
The Beatles " I feel fine " was the first rock song to use feedback....according to Lennon.
Rocket 88 (1951)...Ike turner said that the speaker cone of the amp got pierced, and thats why you hear a slight fuzz.
Sumgai...Why would you choose Taxman?....just curious.
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Post by sumgai on May 23, 2006 16:39:57 GMT -5
deep,
The tonal characterisics were much copied in later years (not full at all, very distorted (never mind a pierced speaker)), the chordal progression sounded familiar, but the real progression used was more complex, lots of droning, and the lead hook was almost out of sync with the drums, a different beat count (don't recall what it is anymore, but we could work it out, I'm sure).
About the only thing that made it instantly recongizable as The Beatles were the vocals and harmonies. Even Norwegian Wood was obviously a Beatle tune, although more ethereal than prior material. This lead to "White Rabbit" and that kind of 'blown mind' music, definitely what I'd call "non-rock" - there was no driving compulsion to get down and boogie. The only movements I made to this sound, back then, were towards the refrigerator door! ;D
sumgai
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Post by Ripper on May 23, 2006 22:55:29 GMT -5
Lets say for arguments sake "Rock Around The Clock" is the first rock song... Compare that to Zeppelins "Whole Lotta Love" ....Can you honestly say thay are the same genre?...Not even close. I think R&R has too broad a range. I believe what we hear today is rock...the roll has been along time gone.  |
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Post by Ripper on May 23, 2006 22:58:34 GMT -5
sorry....I meant in the last post " a long time gone".....not along!
I dont want to be mocked! lol
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Post by quarry on May 24, 2006 3:51:58 GMT -5
The Beatles definitely had roll with their rock... at least in the early days, as evidenced in this un-retouched photograph:  |
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Post by Ripper on May 24, 2006 12:03:20 GMT -5
quarry!
I almost fell off of my chair when I saw your pic!....brilliant!! lol
I always wondered why you never saw McCartney & Sungai in the same picture... now I know why!
Sumgai WAS the walrus!!...... koo- koo- ka -choo! ;D
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Post by quarry on May 24, 2006 14:29:19 GMT -5
Listen carefully, and you'll realize they're actually singing, "Lucy and Sumgai with diamonds"... |
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Post by Ripper on May 24, 2006 14:31:48 GMT -5
quarry...
You know its only a matter of time untill we feel is wrath! ;D
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Post by quarry on May 24, 2006 16:03:45 GMT -5
OK, this is the last time, I swear... I just couldn't resist! Sumgai - have mercy!!!  |
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Post by Ripper on May 24, 2006 20:32:38 GMT -5
quarry! You know not what you do! ;D ....great work though! |
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Post by ux4484 on May 25, 2006 9:03:36 GMT -5
not that I'm complain' but you needs a bag on the wax paul as well |
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Post by ChrisK on May 25, 2006 14:00:07 GMT -5
So, like, what's the oldest "Roll"?
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Post by quarry on May 25, 2006 15:54:12 GMT -5
So, like, what's the oldest "Roll"? When you find out, tell Tchaikovsky the news... |
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