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Post by ChrisK on Jun 10, 2008 17:23:34 GMT -5
So you're back to using the rotary switches?
To do the 6 modes for each humbucker, you will need a 3P6T rotary switch. due to the phase reversal you will indeed need 3 poles. Since these generally don't exist, use a 4P6T like the StewMac one.
Parallel out-of-phase, within a pickup with similar coils is generally useless, especially with the ultra-narrow single coil-sized ones.
The sensed harmonics are so similar due to the narrow sensing window and coupled magnetic field. Remember, you get the difference of what the two coils sense. If there's little difference, there's little output.....
Parallel out-of-phase when capacitively coupled (half out-of-phase) is marginally better, but only with widely separated coils (as in two pickups).
Series out-of-phase won't be much better.
If you don't use internal out-of-phase, you can get by with a 2 pole switch if you're willing to short a coil to avoid hanging coils. If you don't want to short coils and don't use internal out-of-phase, a 3P4T single deck rotary switch is about $4 or so. This could give series/parallel/a/b.
You can also use a DP3T ON-ON-ON mini toggle switch to effect series/single/parallel since with these narrow balanced pickups, either coil will sound very similar.
Whatever you do regarding the inter-coil switching of a pickup, as easily used with the Mike Richardson scheme (or any scheme where a pickup's two resulting output wires are used), it is the inter-coil switching module.
This is what sumgai separated by the "AA" points, also known as an API in a metaphorical sense.
This is separate from the Mike Richardson scheme. Think of the MR scheme as the "house wiring" in your guitar where there is a defined "inlet" for each of the three pickups. The inter-coil module is just a "thingy (a "power strip" perhaps)" that each pickup coil is plugged/switched into, and then the "thingy" is plugged into its proper "inlet".
Think of the model of a stereo system where there is an amp (the MR scheme), the speakers/drivers (the pickups), and the crossover networks (the inter-coil module). We know that the speakers/drivers are connected to the crossovers, and the crossovers are connected to the amp, but there are not schematics that show all of this in one drawing.
The MR scheme does exactly what you want for the inter-pickup switching. No neck-on switch is needed or should even be entertained since it has no meaning herein.
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Post by sumgai on Jun 10, 2008 17:23:42 GMT -5
andy, No problem about the questions, I kinda expected 'em. I'll modify my diagram and post it in a new message, in just a moment. I'll leave the original diagram in it's post, because there's a page break, and I don't wanna make anyone have to flip back and forth just to see what all of the hubbub is about. Still and all, it would appear that I need to stress the fact that there is complete duplication of the 6-way rotary switches that control the internal wiring for the Neck and Bridge pickups. For that reason, I don't draw both switches, I merely refer to the second iteration with the double right-pointing arrows. This is actually a standard practice within the electronics community, witness almost any stereo amplifier where the left channel is shown, and the right channel is "noted" as a duplicate. (Albeit, sometimes the part numbers change between the two channels, like as in R101 is for the left channel, and R201 is for the right channel.) OK, let me go warm up the AUTOcad drawing board.......... sumgai
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Post by sumgai on Jun 10, 2008 17:42:13 GMT -5
Chris, No, there are a few differences. I went back and modified andy's post to show everything in a table format, and now I see where he's requested something a bit different. Also, he did say that I included the Neck on switch, seemingly by accident, and that he wants it removed. Because of the newly desired combinations. ~!~!~!~!~!~!~ andy, Be aware that I didn't do any design work for the above diagram, I only checked my work against Mike Richardsons for accuracy as to selecting the combinations called out in his Truth Table. In order to enact your desired selections, I'll need to muddle through some bottles of "brain function enhancement elixer", aka some "nectar of the Gawds". Let me cogitate over this for a few minutes....... or hours...... but I'll get to it before the day's out, trust me on this. ;D ................ ................ No, let me make a change in the course here, I need an answer first. How married are you to that DPDT switch? If I need a 4PDT switch in order to make your dreams come true, is that OK with you? Or if you'd prefer that we stay with the DPDT switch, are you willing to live with whatever I can do that comes the closest to your desired combinations? sumgai
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andywelsh
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Post by andywelsh on Jun 13, 2008 8:12:27 GMT -5
OK... er first off, I get the point about not duplicating bits of diagrams - makes perfect sense. Secondly, if there is virtually no difference in sound between individual coils, and Poop & Soop is pretty useless on mini humbuckers like the Seymour Duncans, then I guess there's no point in wiring it up that way and I can go with the far simpler mini toggles for series/split/parallel for each hb (also helps with space in the control cavity!). (I originally wanted the choice of which coil to use because they sound pretty good on a PRS - but hey it seems you can't have everything and there would seem to be little point (on this project anyway) of trying to get all the available options ) Regarding which coil to choose in split mode, as I have the RW/RP in the middle position it makes sense to keep the selections as buzz-free as possible and wire accordingly. Finally, I'd like to keep the visual aspect as neat as possible, so the fewer (visible) switches the better. It would therefore seem that I need: 1) a super 5 way lever switch (4 pole) to give the pickup combinations, 2) 3 x push/pulls : i.e 1 for the series/parallel switching (on the vol pot) and 1 for phase selection on each hb pickup (on each tone pot), and 3) 2 x DP3T on/on/on mini toggles for series/split/parallel on each humbucker. ... that is unless you can think of any simpler switching methods? I'm open to any and all (polite) suggestions! I think thats everything. I can't help feeling its a shame that I'm not going to end up building the superswitch monster this time. I suppose I should have bought normal size humbuckers, but they'll have to wait for the next project now..... Thanks again
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Post by andywelsh on Jun 18, 2008 4:13:46 GMT -5
Hiya - me again!
I've just discovered that Seymour Duncan have released a doozy of a pickup called the p-rail that is a humbucking pup made up of a p90 and a rail single coil. Now theres a pup crying out to be tried split and in and out of phase etc if ever there was one! ;D
A bit pricey but possibly worth it. So..... I'll be saving up and getting a pair of them for the next project I feel!!!
In the meantime I'll stick with these mini humbuckers I already have. Has anyone figured out a wiring scheme, please?
Thanks
Andy
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Post by sumgai on Jun 18, 2008 19:48:16 GMT -5
andy, Somehow your reply of a few days ago got past my attention span! My regularly scheduled Wednesday night gig is in a few hours, so I'll have to wait until very late tonight, or more likely tomorrow, before I can get one of them there 'round tuit thingies. Patience, Grasshopper.......... sumgai
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andywelsh
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Post by andywelsh on Jul 28, 2008 7:37:16 GMT -5
Hiya Hope the gig(s) went/are going well. Did you find a tuit - round or any other shape? Sorry to be a nuisance. Andy
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Post by andywelsh on Aug 1, 2008 6:25:08 GMT -5
Cooee Well I thought I'd have a go and let you know what I was thinkng of doing and maybe someone could proof it please? Thanks. Here is a bad scan - I hope you can see enough detail: If you can see it (!) you'll notice a few things: A) Its basicly the Mike Richardson with phase scheme. B) I've added a link from position D on M- to the back of the vol pot. C) I've removed the bare wire from the middle p/u because the p/u I'm using doesn't have one! D) I've added bridge and neck Seymour Duncan humbuckers, both with a dpdt on/on/on to give series/split/parallel options. E) Missing from the diagram (for the sake of clarity) is an addition to the treble bleed circuit of a 100k resistor. Is this a good idea?(The pots are all 250k log push/push varieties.) OK, I'm reasonably clear on the wiring (I think) except: 1) I'm not 100% sure that the red and yellow wires on a Fender rw/rp pickup are indeed the + & - respectively although they certainly look like the start and finish respectively! Can anyone confirm/deny, please? 2) Have I split the humbuckers correctly to give hum cancelling with the middle p/u? (I'm not sure, but I think the Fender Tex Mex RW/RP is a North polarity magnet - again, if anyone can confirm/deny that'd help!) 3) Also missing from the diagram is the wire to the trem claw from the back of the vol pot. Is this the best place to connect it? 4) I assume the wire from the vol pot that ends in a triangle connects to the shielding. Is that right? If not, where does it connect? 5) Do the two caps have to be the same value? Is it a good idea to put a 050 on the neck and a 020 on the bridge? 6) Is this the "best" way to achieve what I'm after? In other words, is there an easier way with fewer switches? I hope all that makes sense and we can finally put this to bed so I can get on with playing it! All help is, as usual, extremely appreciated. Cheers Andy
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Post by sumgai on Aug 6, 2008 13:44:44 GMT -5
andy, OK, I'm back on this - I've let it sit for too long! Sorry 'bout that. In going back over this topic, I see that we've gone around and around over various items, but when I try to pull it all together, I get confused. So let's recap in one or two postings, shall we? What pickups do you have (or plan on having, if I read that part about the P-Rails correctly)? How many? Any particular pup combinations you must have, and/or will not allow? Phasing options? Serial and/or Parallel options (local and global)? Volume and Tone controls - which pickups get what, if not a Master Vol/Master Tone? A list of what pickup combinations you wish to have would be ideal, then we can determine how best to implement them. Tag, you're it! ;D sumgai
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 6, 2008 18:03:15 GMT -5
No. Make sure that the middle pickup's poles attract to the poles on the coil on each humbucker that you want to combine it with (Opposites attract - key to hum canceling). Reverse/adjust the selection of the wires of the middle pickup to match the phase of the humbucker coils chosen for this. It's easier to just wire it up and reverse the middle pickups wires to match than to try to verify and explain this in advance (empirical is). The triangle indicates the ground point for this scheme, which does not address shielding, isolation, or anything else. This is just a wiring module. Well, you seem to want the 10 Mike Richardson combinations as well as series/single/parallel for each humbucker as well as phase on the bridge and neck, so, uh, like, ..............no!
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andywelsh
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Post by andywelsh on Aug 7, 2008 10:08:18 GMT -5
Hiya
I'll reply to ChrisK first, if I may:
So, where does it go? If it comes from the back of a pot, and I'm not "star grounding", and I've already got a connection to the jack, what's left? Thanks.
OK, Sumgai:
This is what I decided on after discussion on this thread said a) there's no point in Soop and PooP on a mini humbucker, b) there's no point in having the choice of coils when splitting a mini humbucker because they will sound VERY similar, and c) it would be easier to have bridge and neck series and parallel as options rather than middle on its own and a separate neck on switch. i.e "easier" both from a selection point of view, tone controls pov and easier to wire pov!
I have already purchased, and therefore WILL use, a Seymour Duncan Lil '59 single coil sized humbucker (neck); a Fender Tex Mex RW/RP single coil (middle); and a Seymour Duncan JbJr single coil sized humbucker (neck). (The PRails were an aside and may feature in a future project! .... Was that a scream I just heard?)
I would like to have the option of parallel/split/series individually selectable on each humbucker.
These are the pickup select options I would like:
Vol pot Down: 1) Neck 2) Neck + Middle parallel 3) Neck + Bridge parallel 4) Middle + Bridge parallel 5) Bridge
Vol pot UP: 1) All 3 parallel 2) Neck * Middle series 3) Neck * Bridge series 4) Middle * Bridge series 5) all 3 series (If its easier, I don't mind 1 & 5 being reversed, but would prefer as stated.)
I'd like all these to be hum-cancelling.
I'd also like to put the pu's in and out of phase with each other (i.e. not within each pickup) when more than 1 is selected. I thought the easiest way of doing this would be to put a push/push on the tone controls affecting 1 humbucker each.
As far as the tone controls themselves go, I'm open to suggestions. Despite all the above, I'd like to keep the "visuals" as clean as possible, so a master tone is out and 2 tones are in! I suppose, given that the middle pu is never on alone, then if 1 does neck, and 1 does bridge is the easiest to wire, then so be it! However, if 1 can do " master bass" and 1 "master treble", (without being active - hence the inverted commas) that's even better!!
As far as I can tell (!), I'm after the Mike Richardson with phase, but with an HSH, rather than SSS configuration, with the addition of parallel/split/series on each humbucker. This is what gave me the rationale behind my last diagram. Each humbucker goes to a dpdt on/on/on for the parallel/split/series, which goes to a phase switch on a push/push on a tone control. Meanwhile, there is a push/push mode switch on the vol pot to switch between series and parallel global combos. That leaves a superswitch for the pu selection and the tone controls wired according to Mike Richardson (whatever that does!).
I therefore hope all this means that looking at the guitar the only cosmetic change is the addition of 2 mini dpdt switches.
I hope that answers all your questions!! And thanks again for all your help.
Cheers
Andy
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 7, 2008 18:00:25 GMT -5
OK, enough "modular thinking" for you. Ignore it. This is what you get with the MR wiring scheme period. If you want to reverse 1&5 UP, it's your aneurysm, I won't help. Follow my statement on magnet polarity. Exactly, that's why I did this on my version of the MR scheme (which you've used as the basis for your drawing). I recommend, at least initially, that each tone control be wired directly across the bridge and neck pickups (as shown on my version of the MR scheme). Exactly! Yes, my version of the MR scheme (which you've used as the basis for your drawing) connects each tone control circuit directly across its respective pickup. DO NOT connect them as usual (as in to ground or a shared capacitor), connect the two wires (one from the pot, one from the respective cap) directly across the respective pickup AS SHOWN. YEP!
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Post by pete12345 on Aug 8, 2008 4:08:18 GMT -5
Humbuckers are hum-cancelling anyway, but combined with a single coil will not completely hum-cancel, since you have two coils wound one way, and a third which is RW/RP with respect to those two. You should be able to get full hum-cancelling with the single coil and one of the split coils of a humbucker though. You won't get complete hum-cancelling on all combinations, but many of them will to some extent.
Pete
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andywelsh
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Post by andywelsh on Aug 9, 2008 12:58:36 GMT -5
Cooee
So you can see, then, why I went for the 'Mike Richardson with phase' as a model!! It seems to do what I'm after.
I therefore hope that the last diagram I posted is ok. (Sorry its such a bad scan - would you prefer if I tried again?) Does it do the hum-cancelling/split the correct coils properly?
Also, Seymour Duncan's website says something about "if you have a Fender single coil pickup in the middle and SD humbuckers either side, you need to swap the green and red (i.e the South start and finish) wires on both SD's." What thay don't say (and I've asked them to clarify, but haven't received a reply), is whether this still applies if the Fender pickup in question is RW/RP.
Its questions like this that keep cropping up in my addled brain that make it vital for me to have my wiring diagram "approved" by you guys with the pickups I'm using before I get the soldering iron out!
Thanks again for the help and interest etc. I really can't thank you enough.
Andy
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Post by andywelsh on Aug 12, 2008 6:08:34 GMT -5
Hiya So, I've done ChrisK's polarity test and here's what happened: The Fender RW/RP single coil was attracted to the "top" coils of both Seymour Duncan's (they're going out on a date together later ) and so I believe this makes it a South polarity. (Confirming this, it was also attracted to my Gibson P-90's!) I thought I'd check it against some of my other guitars and the results were interesting (I thought so anyway!). It repelled all 3 coils on my '79 strat; and repelled the middle and attracted to bridge and neck on my '07 strat. This seems to indicate that, in fact, its the bridge and neck that are "RW/RP" and the middle is "normal" compared to older strats! I also have a strat style double neck so checked it against the pickups on that and it attracted to both middle pickups and repelled the rest! Ooer! Finally, I have at last received a reply from Seymour Duncan which said "Install the Duncans in their normal directions so the logos read correctly, and then reverse green and black on the Duncan pickups. Should sound great that way." This swaps the North start with the South start. HTH Andy
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 12, 2008 17:47:44 GMT -5
I'd stopped responding since you're well in control of your design and well in the land of "If it's low voltage, Experiment, it probably won't kill you!"
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andywelsh
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Post by andywelsh on Aug 13, 2008 10:37:23 GMT -5
Well, I've certainly appreciated all your help and comments, ChrisK. I've needed my hand holding because it is such a complex design. Furthermore, whilst I appreciate (and agree with) your comments about experimenting, the components I'm using (especially the push/push pots) have only very small tags and won't take a lot of soldering/unsoldering etc. - quite apart from the agro of putting everything back together and re-stringing etc only to find I've made a silly mistake that could have been avoided (Isn't that part of the reason sites like this exist?)! Before this project I'd only done straightforward pickup replacements and adding the odd series/parallel switch etc. Its sites like this one that have encouraged me to dig deeper as well as to try to understand a bit more about what goes on "under the hood", as well as given me the confidence to have a go. The problems have come from a) my stupidity, b) the complexity of what I'm after and c) conflicting/confusing comments from various sources that needed clarification (eg changing the phasing on the humbuckers regardless of whether the single coil is RW/RP or not.) So, I'm sorry I've worn out your patience (I certainly never expected this thread to run to 4 pages and still going!), but yet again thanks for all your - and everybody else's - help. Cheers Andy
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 13, 2008 12:10:52 GMT -5
My patience was in no way worn out! I've just "removed the training wheels" from the bike.
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Post by andywelsh on Aug 16, 2008 10:31:43 GMT -5
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
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