rhager11
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Post by rhager11 on May 27, 2009 9:49:46 GMT -5
Well, I still haven't solved the mystery yet. Last night, I made a few changes to rule out some of the possibilities. I lengthened the Lace Sensor grounds and made sure I made a good solid connection to the ground point. All the wiring is now routed in the channel instead of going up and over the body so I am able to adjust the height of the lace sensors without any issue. I also tape insulated the star ground point. All that said and done, it still sounds the same I haven't ordered/received my .33 cap yet so that's another fix in the works. I am also going to try and reverse the black and green wires on the Seymour Duncan hot rail. D2o, I see on the schematic sample that you sent to me that it says to do this for the Seymore Duncan if the neck and middle pickups are Fenders(which the lace sensors are). I figure it's worth a shot. Thanks for you help, I'll let you know how it goes.
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Post by D2o on May 27, 2009 10:39:21 GMT -5
D2o, I see on the schematic sample that you sent to me that it says to do this for the Seymore Duncan if the neck and middle pickups are Fenders(which the lace sensors are). I figure it's worth a shot. Bob, What you are going to try does not seem like it should alleviate the symptoms you have described, but ... ... nothing else has either, so maybe you'll get lucky - it's worth a shot (and that's actually why I asked about which positions were producing the thin sounds in the first place). D2o
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rhager11
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Post by rhager11 on May 27, 2009 11:10:58 GMT -5
D2o,
Yeah, I know it seems like a stab in the dark but it's an easy change. After that, I'll mess around with the Lace Sensor wiring to see what effect that has.
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rhager11
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Post by rhager11 on May 27, 2009 13:31:07 GMT -5
I found the above quote in a harmony central review of Fender Lace Sensor Blue pickups. Anyone have a simular issue with phasing?
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Post by D2o on May 27, 2009 15:23:15 GMT -5
I found the above quote in a harmony central review of Fender Lace Sensor Blue pickups. Anyone have a simular issue with phasing? Hmmm ... Phasing is what newey and I were previously questioning - because of the thin/weak sound. Again, the symptoms didn't quite seem to match the malady ... but, again, I think it's going to take some 'sperimenting to figure this one out, so ... Have at it!
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Post by D2o on May 27, 2009 16:05:50 GMT -5
Star grounding is a "best practices" kind of thing. I haven't yet heard anybody make a convincing argument that it actual makes much difference in a guitar. I have heard several convincing arguments that it just plain can't. I do it because it just makes more sense to me. Anyway, the usual practice of soldering the grounds to the back of the pots creates a sort of "ground bus", which is about the same thing as star grounding. Thanks, Ash Now, what are your thoughts on the leg of the tone cap, specifically, going to the back of the pot when doing the QTB mod? I ask because I have read #18 and I still find it funny that, if the tone capacitor is supposed to go to the star ground - and I believe you and newey and Ange that it is ... you'd think that would be kinda spelled out specifically, rather than leaving it to the reader's imagination to include it as "any wire which runs from a control (pot or switch) terminal to a control body". You know what I mean?
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Post by newey on May 27, 2009 18:48:18 GMT -5
I have a distinct lack of imagination, D2o, so I read it literally. What part of "any wire" is ambiguous? The cap clearly qualifies as such. We've debated before whether ground loops truly pose a noise issue, I think the consensus is "probably not, in most guitars under most conditions". But if one is doing the QTB star grounding mod, the other grounds are all to be disconnected from the backs of the pots. All signal returns are to go to the star ground point. This is what isolates the signal circuit from the shielding, at least until the point after the star ground. The pot shell is now connected to the shielding via contact at the top of the pot. If you left the tone cap connected to the pot shell, the shielding is then conducting signal, perhaps imperfectly and possibly noisily. EDIT:And Rhager11- I don't know squat about Lace Sensors except that they're transducers and thus different from mag pickups. The Lace website notes, however, that they may not work correctly when mixed with mag pickups. Lace doesn't explain why this is, and when I mentioned this previously as a potential issue a year or so ago, someone told me it wasn't a problem. But, if not, then why would Lace discourage people from doing so? Anyway, you may want to direct your attention to how the laces are wired, as well as to the pot values used with the Lace Sensors.
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Post by D2o on May 28, 2009 8:58:49 GMT -5
I have a distinct lack of imagination, D2o, so I read it literally. What part of "any wire" is ambiguous? The cap clearly qualifies as such. We've debated before whether ground loops truly pose a noise issue, I think the consensus is "probably not, in most guitars under most conditions". But if one is doing the QTB star grounding mod, the other grounds are all to be disconnected from the backs of the pots. All signal returns are to go to the star ground point. This is what isolates the signal circuit from the shielding, at least until the point after the star ground. The pot shell is now connected to the shielding via contact at the top of the pot. If you left the tone cap connected to the pot shell, the shielding is then conducting signal, perhaps imperfectly and possibly noisily. You see, if I was a lawyer ... but I'm not. Good 'splainin, newey. Thanks.
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rhager11
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Post by rhager11 on May 28, 2009 11:02:07 GMT -5
Just an update, I switched the black and green wire on my Seymour Duncan Hot Rail last night. It may be my imagination but I think I'm getting a little better volume and sustain from the middle pickup now(still not very impressed by it). The neck pickup is still the same though . I shot an email to the Lace support group but I haven't heard back from them yet.
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Post by D2o on May 28, 2009 11:04:13 GMT -5
I shot an email to the Lace support group but I haven't heard back from them yet. By the time you get to the bottom of this, you will be the "Lace support group"!
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Post by D2o on May 28, 2009 17:00:06 GMT -5
Just an update, I switched the black and green wire on my Seymour Duncan Hot Rail last night. It may be my imagination but I think I'm getting a little better volume and sustain from the middle pickup now(still not very impressed by it). The neck pickup is still the same though . I shot an email to the Lace support group but I haven't heard back from them yet. Bob, FYI ... look at Mr. Sooty's most recent post in his thread on coil splitting.Interesting. I'm not sayin', I'm jus' sayin' ... Interesting ...
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Post by ChrisK on May 28, 2009 17:33:16 GMT -5
Have you measured the resistance of the two Lace sensors?
First, select one pickup at a time (such as the middle only and then the neck only). Make sure that the volume and both tone pots are fully-on (at "10" on a right handed Strat). Measure the resistance at the output jack for each.
Post the results.
Depending on the measurements, you may need to measure each pickup out of circuit.
There are three wires for each pickup. Measure the resistance from each to the other. You should have three readings for each pickup, Post the readings.
For each pickup;
White - Orange_____
White - Green_____
Orange - Green_____
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rhager11
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Post by rhager11 on May 29, 2009 14:34:51 GMT -5
O got a response from the Lace support guy and he said to switch the orange hot with the White ground on the pickups with low output. I'm going ot give that a shot(was going to try that next anyways . I read Mr. Sootys thread about the coil split and maybe there's some correlation there... Chris, I have a cheepo meter but I'm not really sure how to use the thing. The most I've been able to get outta the thing is the meter swings all the way to the right when I touch the two prongs and this only works on one setting. Would it help if I posted a picture of the thing and maybe someone could give me a clue how to use it? Thanks for all the help!!!
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Post by JohnH on May 29, 2009 15:46:34 GMT -5
I think that, given that this is still a puzzle, and it includes the symptoms by which the neck and middle pups are giving a thin sound, even when on their own, you should try to figure out why this is.
Just disconnect those pups fully and run some wires from the pickup direct to the jack with nothing else connected. My understanding of LS pickups is that the orange and white wires are the coil wires (and orange is usually regarded as hot and white goes to ground), and the green is a non signal wire that is used to ground the pup base. When the pups are thus proven, you can wire them back in step by step
John
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Post by ChrisK on May 29, 2009 20:44:48 GMT -5
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rhager11
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Post by rhager11 on Jun 4, 2009 16:45:11 GMT -5
Just an update, I tried flipping the orange and white wires on the neck lace sensor and it made a really big difference(although I still didn't like the sound much). There was a lot more sustain and volume using the neck pickup alone. After playing for about an hour, it started to cut out again though . I am thinking I either have a problem with the push pull pot(which the neck pup routes through) or the wires on the pup are screwed up. I am going to order a new volume pot since the push pull that I have turns way too easily which presents a problem when playing the guitar(always brushing against it and turning the volume down). I got the .33, 400V safety cap installed and taped up the ground ring. I am going to pick up a multimeter tonight and see if I can get the readings. Thanks for the info Chris!
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rhager11
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Post by rhager11 on Jun 4, 2009 21:53:56 GMT -5
Well, I got the multimeter and was able to get some measurements at the output jack tonight. All measurements with volume at 0 in all 5 positions was 2.4 ohms. With volume and tones all set to 10, here is what I got:
Position 1 and 2 15.67 K Position 3, 4 and 5 257.9 K
Humm, the pots are all 250 K. Any thoughts?
Tommorrow I'l take the thing apart again and get the rest of the values.
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Post by ChrisK on Jun 5, 2009 0:08:21 GMT -5
In position 1 & 2 you are measuring the bridge pickup.
In position 3, 4, & 5 you are measuring the volume pot alone. The tone pot will not affect this value since it is an AC (capacitively coupled) circuit.
Yes, the middle and neck pickups are not completing a DC (resistive and/or inductive) circuit. They are either open internally or the switching/wiring is defective.
Reconsider my suggestion to measure each pickup alone from each of its three wires to its other two wires. This will ensure which wires are connected to what (or not what).
Either you're generating significant internal heat in the pickup from excessively exuberant enotation, or the switching/wiring is GeFooey.
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rhager11
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Post by rhager11 on Jun 5, 2009 10:27:25 GMT -5
Thanks Chris,
My next move is to test the neck and middle pup wires independantly.
Here are some observations I made while getting my output jack readings. On the guitar in question, I was able to complete the circuit by touching the black multimeter probe to one of the neck or middle pup screws(while the red probe was touching the output jack). On my other 4 guitars(which are all working fine) I had to touch the bridge with the black probe to complete the circuit to get a proper resistance reading from the output jack. I believe the reason for this is due to the body cavity being so tight in the neck/middle pup area, the base of the pups are touching the foil cavity shielding I used for the QTB mod(which of course is connected to the bridge via a grounding wire). Don't know if this could be causing my issue.
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rhager11
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Post by rhager11 on Jun 5, 2009 11:11:28 GMT -5
D2o, This is one thing I haven't tried yet and that would be to wire the green lace sensor wires to hot. As said in an earlier post, the orange and white are both coil wires and green is ground... So far, I only tried flipping the white and orange wires. Bob
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Post by D2o on Jun 5, 2009 14:55:19 GMT -5
I didn't go back and read it but, yeah, I think Mr. Sooty was saying he actually wired hot to what would normally have been where the ground goes, and vice versa. Worked for him ... who knows - may be worth a shot?
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rhager11
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Post by rhager11 on Jun 7, 2009 11:39:42 GMT -5
OK,
I have the thing apart now on my kitchen table. I tested the wires as requested by Chris and I am getting zero ohms readings across all wire combinations for both of the Lace Sensors. I pried off the plastic cover on the blue lace sensor so I could observe where the wire's where connected and the connections look solid at the start and finish points for the orange, white and at the green ground on the underside of the pickup. I even tried using the multimeter to test the wire connection points and I am still getting 0.00 readings! Any thoughts? Is it possible I have 2 defective pickups or are the Lace Sensors a different animal?
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rhager11
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Post by rhager11 on Jun 7, 2009 11:46:02 GMT -5
Oh, I meant to add, All the while I was testing the lace sensor wires, I did sanity checks on the exposed Seymour Duncan Hot Rail bridge pickup and I was able to get the expected 16.4 resistance reading and also a coil split reading of 8.2.
Just didn't want anyone to think that my multimeter was goofy.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 7, 2009 21:07:33 GMT -5
I'd just like to clarify and be absolutely sure.
You're actually reading 0 Ohms - a dead short - across those two pickups? You're sure it's not an Out of Range reading of some sort?
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Post by ChrisK on Jun 7, 2009 21:32:47 GMT -5
As ash points out, measure the pickup resistance at the wire ends and then touch the two probes together. Is the reading identical?
What resistance range are you using? For each pickup?
If your meter is not auto-ranging, whenever you measure 0 Ohms, always switch to the lowest range and verify.
Are you really reading 0 Ohms from each wire to the other two within the same pickup? Are all three wires shorted together?
Based on your info in post #46, your middle and neck pickups are OPEN, not SHORTED. If they were shorted, you would get no output in any position except for the bridge only.
For all other positions you would have read 0 Ohms and not 15.67 K in Position 2, and 257.9 K in Position 3, 4 and 5.
This is the part of the test where minor points are deducted for not using correct units. I must presume that these are 16.4 K Ohms and 8.2 K Ohms. Is this correct?
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rhager11
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Post by rhager11 on Jun 8, 2009 11:37:39 GMT -5
I'd just like to clarify and be absolutely sure. You're actually reading 0 Ohms - a dead short - across those two pickups? You're sure it's not an Out of Range reading of some sort? I am new to taking these measurements so you are probably right. My multimeter has auto range so threre are no dial settings available. The meter reads 0.00 Ohms when black and red probes are touching each other. When I touch the Lace Sensor wires in any combo(red probe to orange wire, black probe to white wire etc), the reading says 0.L M Ohms, which is the same reading I get when the probes are touching nothing. Just to be clear: touching = 0.00 Ohms Lace Sensor wires and not touching anything = 0.L M Ohms Yes, the readings are 16.4 K and 8.2 K ohms for the hot rail. I can also find the various points in my guitar circuit where I can get the HB and SC readings for the hot rail.
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Post by ChrisK on Jun 8, 2009 19:09:05 GMT -5
Ah ha! (Unfortunately.) "0.L M Ohms" means Over Limit M (eg Ohms). It's the meter's way of saying "dang, that's a big resistance. It's bigger than I can measure." From the meter's perspective, the reading is measurement infinite. Unfortunately, it means that the coil is open and the pickup is defective. Otherwise known as an infinite resistance (well, pretty much). Sorry, dead are.
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rhager11
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Post by rhager11 on Jun 8, 2009 19:38:07 GMT -5
Yeah, That's what I was afraid of.. . I was testing the lace sensors again when I got home tonight and getting the same reading. I purchased them both off of Ebay from a dude that had a lot of positive feedback selling many guitar parts. I already left positive feedback over a month ago when I got the pups in the mail but maybe he'll work with me. They were in the box and looked new(listed as never used) but they came with seymour duncan wiring diagrams and they were priced $10 lower than all the other "new" lace sensors. Somebody probably sold him a lot of defectives passed off as overstock or liquidation inventory. Who knows.... . Caveat emptor.
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rhager11
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Post by rhager11 on Jun 9, 2009 13:45:19 GMT -5
Hey, I have a favor to ask of anyone that happens to have a Lace Sensor Silver or Blue pickup on any of their guitars. I know this is probably silly but if you could take a multimeter reading(from the output jack) with the switch set to a single Lace Sensor pickup, it sure would make me feel more comfortable knowing what the ohms resistance multimeter reading is on one that is functioning. I know what the spec sheets say and all that but just the same... Thanks and Kudos to anyone that has the time to do this!!!!
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Post by ChrisK on Jun 11, 2009 17:14:04 GMT -5
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