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Post by newey on Jan 21, 2008 22:20:54 GMT -5
Andy- (and to everyone else who chimed in on this topic) If you're interested in seeing the 4 pup Strat I'm planning to build it. What started as a musing by a guy who likes oddball guitars (namely. me . . .) has generated enough interest to move me forward. Got a couple of other projects that have to get finished first tho. Anyway, as to nodes and pickup placement I'm not concerned with the bridge and neck pups as these would almost have to have standard strat placement if the other 2 pups are going to have some space from the neck and/or bridge. So the question comes down to optimally placing the 2 "middle" pickups. My thought is to build a test rig- take an old strat pickguard and cut a large hole, the width of a std single coil, from about 3/4" north of the bridge pup to about 3/4" south of the neck pup. This would be fitted onto a "bathtub" routed strat body. The guard would have 2 rails, or channels, on the underside running lengthwise along each side of the hole. A SC pup would be slotted in the rails so it could move backwards and forwards along the track, and would be wired straight to an output jack. With a little "slop" in the rails the pup could also be angled. I could then use a regular Strat with the middle only selected as a sort of control to compare the sound of a std Strat middle pickup with the variations in the test rig as the moveable pickup is placed in different positions. Obviously this is all going to be highly subjective, based as it is on my ears only, but hopefully I can find 2 positions for middle pups which are tonally pleasing, and maybe even better than the std Strat middle position (which someone, Sumgai perhaps, said was placed for looks) Once I find the positions and angles, then I can have a guard made to those specs. And then I can also look into what wiring scheme to implement for a 4 pup Strat (many options come to mind . . .) As an additional matter, my feeling was that neither of the 2 middle pickups in such a configuration should be RWRP- or maybe they both should be? Any thoughts on that, anyone?
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Post by andy on Jan 22, 2008 10:58:06 GMT -5
As an additional matter, my feeling was that neither of the 2 middle pickups in such a configuration should be RWRP- or maybe they both should be? Any thoughts on that, anyone?I suppose that depends on the configurations you would use most regularly... It might even make sense for the bridge-facing mid pickup and the neck pickup tp be rw/rp if you are using front/back pairs, which would also give a hum-cancelling Tele type selection?? Either way, it's almost worth chucking any one or two in as rw/rp- if you do end up with a lot of interference somewhere it can be better just to stick with one sound, regardless of character, which gets rid of it- I used to play in a room with an incorrectly installed hearing aid loop- the entire P.A. mix was sent to my amp via the pickups! Not pretty.
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Post by newey on Jan 22, 2008 23:05:03 GMT -5
Andy-
I don't know what "an incorrectly installed hearing aid loop" sounds like, but I'm imagining something like the feedback squeal when someone turns a hearing aid up too high. Sounds ugly, anyway.
I should add that proper shielding and the use of modern "noiseless" pups are part of the agenda on this project. Try to nip noise problems in the bud.
You raise the idea of using "front/back pairs" of pickups, which was something I was thinking as well, altho I was thinking one could use 2 matched pairs of pickups, say a vintage bridge/neck combo in pickup slots 1 and 3 (numbering the neck as 1, bridge as 4) and a hotter- wound pair in slots 2 and 4. Switching would be between the one pair and the other, as if you had two different guitars with twin pups- except it would also have to have the "all 4 at once" option- it is a 4 pickup guitar, after all. But your thinking sort of seems to parallel that.
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Post by andy on Jan 25, 2008 6:02:13 GMT -5
Actually, I'd only been thinking in terms of similar pickups- the mixture idea is great, almost a 'vintage' two pickup guitar and a 'hot' two pickup guitar, with blendable options. Just that extra thought will give me plenty to daydream about in a custom guitar of my own!
Oh, and the hearing aid loop problem was that the loop ran round the entire room, including the stage, rather than just the seating area- normally I think the loop only transmits inside itself, so the stage would be free from interference, but the 'radio' version of the P.A. mix was also floating about on-stage in this particular room. So it sounded like the front of house mix- only through a guitar amp!
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Post by newey on Jan 25, 2008 22:12:08 GMT -5
Well, we're getting way out ahead of this project talking about how to wire it up when I'm still pondering pup placement, BUT FWIW: I'm thinking 3 SG/LP-style on/on/on toggles would give me all possible pickup combos. Each pair of pups would get 1 toggle so, for example, the 1 and 3 slot pups would have a toggle giving you 1/1+3/3, second toggle is 2/2+4/4, and the first two would be wired into a third toggle. giving 1+3/1+2+3+4/2+4. So all 3 switches in the middle position would give all 4 pups. Just a thought. Also, I could go to a DPDT switch for each pair of pups and run separate V & T controls for each pair of pups off the 2nd pole of the switches. Concentric pots for V & T for each pair, plus a master volume would fill the three holes in a std. Strat guard. I think all that's doable as described- if not, I'm sure I'll hear about it. My head is spinning so I could be wrong . . .
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Post by ChrisK on Jan 26, 2008 1:27:27 GMT -5
I did a quick analysis of pickup placement on this board about a year or so ago.
I postulated that with the bridge (#1) pickup at its standard/slanted location (use the average pole location on the bridge pickup as the distance from the bridge, and with the neck (#4) pickup at its farthest distance from the bridge as the distance from the bridge (I didn't say pickup), one gets two distances.
One might suppose that the optimum location for the middle pickup is the square root of the ratio of the two aforementioned distances, times the bridge to bridge pickup distance, measured from the bridge, ratio-metrically speaking.
If you have two pickups in the middle, each location would be the third root of the of the two aforementioned distances, times the bridge to bridge pickup distance (for the first middle (#2) pickup), and then times the bridge to first middle pickup distance measured from the bridge (for the second middle (#3) pickup), ratio-metrically speaking.
In both examples, a further multiplication of the last middle pickup location by the root function value should exactly correspond with the neck pickup location from the bridge (ratio's rule). If it doesn't, you slept thru math class that day and your numbers are GeFooey.
Unless you actually fret notes.............................. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by newey on Jan 26, 2008 7:21:59 GMT -5
Thanks Chris!
I'm assuming when you say the "location" of a pup we're talking to the centerline of each one. And BTW, I probably did sleep through math class that day (and other days), thereby forever crushing my dreams of a career in particle physics. But I think I've got your formula on this down.
If it's a strictly mathematic problem i guess no testing is necessary. I took it from Sumgai's post that there might be more of a subjective component to placement, and that a strictly calculated placement rule might not be the best "ear-wise".
And yes, I'll be fretting notes unless my slide playing improves considerably . . .
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Post by sumgai on Jan 26, 2008 15:31:46 GMT -5
newey, Chris is spot-on of course.... for starters. What I said, more-or-less, was that Leo got lucky, 'cause I don't think he ever used a formula for anything. He was the original seat-of-the-pants flyer, if there ever was one. One should strive for the ultimate in tone, but until one has actually tried non-mathematically-derived placements, one won't know that one has the best possible arrangement, will one? Your idea has great merit, and if you need it, I'll ship you my test-bed. I've no longer got the time (as if I ever did!) to do this, so it's best to hand the project over to one of you youngsters, and you seem to be qualified for the job. ;D BTW, did you get a chance to peruse this page: www.till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/index.htmlHTH sumgai
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Post by newey on Jan 26, 2008 20:19:17 GMT -5
Haven't been called that in the past few decades! ;D I had not seen Mr. Tillman's applet- and I immediately bookmarked it. Veeerrry interrrresting, as Arte Johnson used to say (now I am dating myself with that reference . . . ) But in looking at the Tillman site, I immediately realized I needed the "Doh" slap-me-upside-the-head smiley. In planning to test, I had forgotten that scale length matters- meaning my non-standard Asian Strat clone won't suffice as a tester, and I'm going to have to finalize exactly what I'm building before testing. Which implies that I might as well get the actual guitar I'm going to use for this and test with that. That way, there will be fewer confounding variables such as the sustain of the wood from one guitar to the other. As far as your "test rig", I appreciate the offer but I don't know to what you are referring. So, I really have three options here: 1) Seat-of-the-pants, a la Leo- draw up what seems "right" and ship it off to Warmoth to get a guard made up. If I don't like the end result, hey, guards are pretty cheap. 2) Mathematically- derived positioning per Chris' formula. Theoretically optimal but may miss a subjective "sweet spot". Also, the model doesn't account for angling one or more of the pups, which was something I was going to experiment with in testing. I shudder to think of the math needed to account for the effects of angling so I'm not gonna go there . . . 3) Test mule, as discussed. Named the "Node-o- caster", perhaps? BTW, on the subject of angling, I noted previously that Warmoth offers a Strat guard with the bridge pup reverse-angled from the std Strat. Anyone have any experience with that setup?
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Post by ChrisK on Jan 26, 2008 21:07:43 GMT -5
If you have a pool routed body, make a pool routed pickguard with screw holes along each side (or don't use one). You just need to be able to adjust the pickup locations. I suspect that Leo placed the middle pickup to look appealing. He slanted the bridge pickup to compensate for tone thru the (crappy) tube amps of the day (they're still crappy, but they're "our" crappy). My positioning model was only for a ratiometrically-derived placement in lieu of a linear "good looking" approach. For instance, when one looks at Oooh, Shiny. What Should I Do To It?, one sees that when the ratio of the bridge-side coil on the bridge humbucker to the bridge when compared to the neck-side coil on the bridge humbucker to the bridge is further extrapolated to the middle pickup and then to the neck pickup, the distance "gain" ratio is reasonably constant. Luck is. I don't have much empirical evidence that this means hooey, but my bro'n'law thinks that it is one of the best sounding Strats that he's played. Of course, as a traditional maple neck/board alder body AmStd guy who's been recently retrained toward Rio Grande calibrated Strat pickups in an AmStd alder bodied rosewood/maple (gasp!) neck by yours truly, a TexMex loaded, rosewood/maple neck swamp ash bodied S-1 super-duper wired gosh dang pretty thing might have situationally encountered re-calibrated stale senses. As far as empirical pickup placement, I had done some simple testing with my VG-88 wherein one can "build" guitar models and place a pickup anywhere (even on the neck). One can also rotate/tilt and reverse phase such pickups. I think that it only did two pickups at a time, but one could have many models saved. The Workbench that I have for the Varian also does this. I have a Variax 500 that I use it with. One can often pickup a Variax 300 on clearance for about $300 at GC. The Workbench should run about $100 (I bought both of mine for about $80 each). The Variax with the Vammy bar runs about $1,200 up. I bought my Variax back when I was able to get the price down to only $800 some years back specifically to avoid buying all those vintage models just to model them by clever wiring. Now, before you get too excited, the Variax senses the string vibration AT THE BRIDGE since each string pickup IS the saddle. So, any pickup position testing is based on extrapolated/interpolated calculations IN THE DSP IN THE GUITAR. This test bed, formerly known as the original ToggleCaster, is doing yeoman's duty as a test bed for middle and neck pickups. The pickups under test are wedged in with 1" x 1" x 2" foam blocks. Jimi did. BTW, Tillman's java model does NOT show the relative harmonic amplitudes as a function of pickup position. rather, it shows the relative response of the pickup as a function of the string being fretted further and further down the neck. this was immediately obvious since there was not a symmetrical response for symmetrically placed pickups (about the 12th fret). He does go on to explain this. I have further issues with this model since the overall envelope of the response is CONSTANT regardless of the pickup placement, and is only modulated in apparent structure when the pickup is closer than 25% of the string length to the bridge, by the increasing width and lower number of the lobes. Since he was kind enough to link to the java code, changes and new models can be easily derived.
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Post by newey on Jan 26, 2008 22:28:05 GMT -5
Chris-
Your suggestion as to using a pool routed body with a pool-routed pickguard for testing was essentially what I had in mind. My idea was to use a pair of U-channel pieces along the underside of the "pool guard" to slot the pup into, allowing adjustable positioning as well as angling.
As far as the Variax and workbench are concerned, good idea but I think the $$$ are going into the project itself. Having a modeling guitar would be nice, but I'm not a big DSP guy. Call me old school, I guess at some point I'll have to sign up for the 21st century- but not right now.
Point taken on the Applet. I also noticed that pickup height is not one of the variables and is assumed constant, although that can have a significant effect, I would think, on the response.
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Post by sumgai on Jan 26, 2008 23:37:04 GMT -5
newey,
I've got an import Strat body (not a clone, a Jen-U-Wine Squier), with all the attendant parts and pieces. Currently torn apart, and already pool-routed.
I've not yet shielded it, because I had intended to skip the pickguard altogether. I was just going to mount channel rails within the cavity, and use t-nuts/bolts to hold the pups in place. A twist of the screw, you move it wherever, another twist and it's locked down and ready for testing. This would have let me change things out, if needed, without having to fight the strings, mounting screws, etc.
When it somes to slanting a pup, you gotta remember a couple o' things......... a slant requires either a longer pup, or else a solid piece of magnet material that extends the field's focus area a wee bit past the strings, when positioned at a slant. Otherwise, the signal strength will be lower than usual, and that'll affect your readings. Further, if you take a nominally normal Strat bridge pup, which is longer than the neck/mid pups, and use it at the neck position (picture a Mosrite Ventures model here), you'll skew the results once again - that pup is a bit stronger than the ordinary neck and mid pups, it's made that way on purpose. (To ovecome the weaker string vibrations found in the bridge area of the string, compared to how strong the vibrations are at the neck pup position.)
You will gain much insight in the first round, even when sticking to just the perpendicular pup placements. In the next round, you can use that data to make adjustments for magnetic field strength when you go to slant any of the pups. That should give you enough raw data for your Doctoral Thesis, right? ;D
HTH
sumgai
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Post by sumgai on Jan 26, 2008 23:52:40 GMT -5
newey, BTW, just for grins, and because you claim to be old enough to know better (!), did you ever happen to see one of these? How many pickemups do you see? That's right, they're under the pickguard, making it nigh on to impossible to throw out a lucky guess. But in fact, there were four of them lil beasties in there! Google for Fender Marauder, and see what happened after CBS got a snootful, and thought they could out-Leo the man himself. ;D sumgai
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Post by newey on Jan 27, 2008 0:41:14 GMT -5
Sumgai- No, I hadn't seen one of those before, which is kinda surprising since I was a big Jaguar/Jazzmaster fan as a kid- never owned one but always liked the offset body style. So how overwound would those pups need to be? And no height adjustment, presumably. And the nice clean look of no visible pickups is a bit marred by all the chrome-surrounded switches hung on there- the switches look like they need something to do. But an interesting idea for sure.
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Post by newey on Jan 27, 2008 1:03:05 GMT -5
Also, I notice that Sumgai has ever-so-subtly returned this thread to its original topic, which was about "more than 3" pup guitars from the '60's, before I sidetracked it into a discussion of making a 4 pup Strat and testing for pup placement (all of which probably belongs elsewhere, threadwise). Hey, I had help, I didn't veer off all on my own. But now we're back to a more coffee-shop-friendly twist to this topic.
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Post by ChrisK on Jan 27, 2008 1:56:01 GMT -5
Feldergarb, it's a short neck Bass VI with subterranean pickups fer the Subterranean Homesick Blues, that's all.
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Post by andy on Jan 27, 2008 8:42:38 GMT -5
Hey, I had help, I didn't veer off all on my own. Sooorrry! I'm normally such a good boy...
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Post by newey on Jan 27, 2008 12:21:56 GMT -5
Sooorrry! I'm normally such a good boy... And we know what Every Good Boy Deserves . . . ;D
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Post by andy on Jan 27, 2008 14:57:04 GMT -5
Yeah, but try telling that to my wife!!!
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Post by andy on Jan 27, 2008 15:05:08 GMT -5
I do beg your pardon- I realise that that was a completely innocent music theory joke, but I've just returned from a Sunday afternoon at the pub...
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Post by FireBall on Jan 27, 2008 17:27:01 GMT -5
DiPinto anyone?
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Post by newey on Jan 27, 2008 21:20:45 GMT -5
Fire-
Another 4 pupper! Seems as if a lot of these have the Jag-style offset body look- interesting.
And Andy-
No need to beg pardon. Just like a good lyric, a good joke should work on a couple of different levels- and you took it exactly to the place I expected someone would. (Not implying that I think it was that great of a joke or anything)
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Post by dunkelfalke on Jan 28, 2008 6:00:04 GMT -5
soviet electric guitars were sometimes like that - and even stereo.
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Post by newey on Jan 28, 2008 6:18:34 GMT -5
Falcon- I'm guessing that's a master Vol. + 4 individual Tone pots?? Whoever designed that is one of us!!
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Post by andy on Jan 28, 2008 7:41:14 GMT -5
Actually, I would have assumed the other way around- 4x Vol and master tone, unless those black dots on the scratchplate are on/off switches of some kind?
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Post by kuzi16 on Jan 28, 2008 8:27:31 GMT -5
i always thought music was outlawed in soviet russia... unless it was "patriotic"
on a serious note... on the pink one i think those are 4 buttons on top for pickup selection. I wonder if you press in on one the other pop out. could you in theory have all 4 on at once?
hmmm...
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Post by dunkelfalke on Jan 28, 2008 9:51:41 GMT -5
well, you can have patriotic music with an electric guitar, let me show you and yes, all four at once, two for the left channel, two for the right channel
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Post by newey on Jan 28, 2008 16:49:57 GMT -5
Ahh, Falke, I forgot you said it was stereo. So maybe one of the knobs is R to L balance? Still a lot of switches on that thing! By the way, for those interested in Soviet era and Eastern European guitars: meatexz.com/cheesyguitars/guitars.htmlLots of bizarre stuff therein
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Post by FireBall on Jan 28, 2008 18:22:26 GMT -5
Will this count as 3's a crowd?? Remember the Hamer Prototype?
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Post by andy on Jan 28, 2008 19:03:00 GMT -5
Mmmm, so thats a single coil and a humbucker in the one housing? I'm guessing at normal 3-way switching from the toggle and a coil tap from the mini switch?? Have you found that that gives good tonal results? And I know that this is a bit off subject, but that arrangement reminds me of a friends idea of making a humbucker from a single coil and a P-90. Of course, the outputs would have to match up, but that could give some good coil splitting results.
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