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Post by 4real on Nov 2, 2013 15:18:15 GMT -5
Back OT: Saw one no-name archtop kind of like the basis of 4real's "jazz strat" plastic backed hollowbody, but it was not as comfortable to sit with as the Washburn. I also saw a fair amount of used Ovation/Applause(by Ovation) A/E's Nice sounding, but that damn fishbowl back slips right off my lap (pushed by my tummy unfortunately). LOL...I sold one (and have at least one more) two weeks back that I worked on for $80 and ahve given quite a few away. He was particularly impressed by how well it played (I did quite a bit of work on it for that to happen). It is a full size but slim cheap ovation aplause type guitar, the bowl back is a bit more squared off on the edges and the materials make it strong. It has piezo in it, but does not sound bad acoustically for what it is. It even has a bolt on neck so can be dismantled if required. Smaller than full size, it is full scale (but a wider acoustic neck than an electric, good for fingerpicking type stuff) and relatively thin. For the belly problem, a bit of double sided tape to a cheap 'grippy rubber meat' can be of assistance with such guitars...though perhaps it depends on how "pregnant" you are ;-), but they are impervious to tempreture changes and humidity and such, I pionted out it would make a great paddle if he were out to sea for some reason! Rainsong possibly make, and some others do make, great carbon fiber travel guitars, at the high end, that would be very hard to damage and impervious to the pressure and temperature changes...
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Post by ux4484 on Nov 5, 2013 11:00:05 GMT -5
Well, the Washburn is committed to now, I had it out this weekend at a (Real) firepit, no troubles with tuning or the cool night next to a fire. It's just the right volume acoustically to sing with in a small group. I am thinking of making a bridge like the on on your Jazz Box, I think I'd like to possibly try making a sound post (ala traditional stringed instruments) as well to give it just a bit more.
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Post by 4real on Nov 5, 2013 17:42:42 GMT -5
Well, the Washburn is committed to now, I had it out this weekend at a (Real) firepit, no troubles with tuning or the cool night next to a fire. It's just the right volume acoustically to sing with in a small group. I am thinking of making a bridge like the on on your Jazz Box, I think I'd like to possibly try making a sound post (ala traditional stringed instruments) as well to give it just a bit more. The soundpost on my Jazz Box was to stabalise the top of the archtop with the multituning device...I would not recomend it as it completely diminisesthe acoustic sound. If the top needs stabalising or want something like that, I would recomend the JDL bridge doctor device as shown in the 'seagull project' which will stabalise the top and potentially give a little more sustain and volume and perhaps bass end, potentially...i suspect that results will vary on the effect with the guitar. This is like a soundpost to the end block, transmitting vibrations to the side and back and to the top from the sides. It will correct or prevent belly warp and so make for a stronger more stable guitar. And is relativly cheap. I'm not sure of the guitar which you have (pics?)...but the way an arch top works is very different to a flat top. Thre is a lot of pressure down on the top and so with the multituing, you have many problems, but one of them is the 'spring' in the top that can be quitedramatic resulting in all the strings moving when the pressure is removed by down tuning. The soundposts to he back was a way to stabalise it all...so it is more of a hybrid 'electric guitar' and only suitable for very quiet acoustic play. Good for feedback control and sustain and such electrically...like a semi solid...flat tops pull 'up' archtps pressure down... But the ability to have an acoustic and play anywhere is a treasure and gald you are making great use of yours...
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Post by ux4484 on Nov 5, 2013 17:50:12 GMT -5
Just speculating, I'll start a new thread if I start the experiment.
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Post by 4real on Nov 7, 2013 16:44:54 GMT -5
Oh ok, nice looking guitar.
You might want to experiment in the way a violin's soundpost works...a dowel under the bridge to the back perhaps, though there is a fair bit of downwards pressure, so you might want to add a 'pad of plywood or something so as not to push a hole in the top or back, there are a few risks to this kind of thing, could even separate fromthe sides, I dont know. On my 'plastic guitar' the ovation like back is super strong and no joins, so was no risk there. It significantly reduced volume acoustically, but helped sustain and 'body' to the sound and feedback rejection when electric at volume. I really only did it to stabalise the top for multi tuning, if you detune an arch top, the top will release up and all the strings will be altered, clearly that was not going to work! Being quite a 'fat' acoustic guitar, it is a bit louder than your normal semi solid, but then, some times it is good to be able to quietly playthe guitar...I have it out by my desk at all times and should use it more to explore the open tunings. On a flat top, the JDl actually does a similar thing but seems to subtly enhance the effect, but the pressures are reversed on an arch top and so that would not work to keep the top from flattening out.
I dare say, you might be able to get something in held down by the string pressure and perhaps double sided tape or something, into the sound hole. With out that, when changing strings, the top is likely to spring up and release the post when you take off the strings.
Arch tops have a certain 'romance' about them, even cheap ones...has a look and feel, but not an equivilent instrument to a flat top, quite different beasts. It's interesting to consider how the two instruments differ in the way they produce sound and vibrate.
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Post by ux4484 on Nov 7, 2013 21:43:35 GMT -5
A violin sound post is what I was going for. As the interior is plywood (mahogany capped exterior), I thought it could stand up to one... But.... The decision (and the guitar) was taken out of my hands today... While playing it yesterday, the binding near the bottom "f" hole popped and cracked the poly finish (no contact made) I took it back to the shop, they had sold my trades already, so they offered to repair it (weeks, and possibly some cost to me), swap it for something in the same price range, of give me a refund. While I was willing to tinker with the sound post project, I wasn't looking forward to dealing with a poly-dipped finish THAT sensitive (yes, it was outside on a cool night, but c'mon!) (I'm sure some more binding damage may have occurred). I went for a used cutaway Ovation A/E, by comparison, it seems indestructible, has easier to change strings, and has the shallowest "bowl" of the Ovations. More sensible choice for the purpose as well (travel). *sigh*
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Post by newey on Nov 7, 2013 21:50:20 GMT -5
I very much like the shallow-bowl Ovation/Applause guitars, the neck feels like an electric neck. The downside, as mentioned, is the need to use a strap even when seated. But I've been meaning to get one of those. I need a better acoustic.
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Post by 4real on Nov 8, 2013 0:59:44 GMT -5
I'm sorry to hear about the broken guitar, but glad you got a replacement...extreme temperature changes, playing by the fire and all that...hmmm... There are a lot to be said for ovation guitars. My plastic guitars have a far more straight sides than the 'bowls' and a non slip kind of finish and the back not too rounded and overall a bit thinner perhaps...there's even a bit of a belly cut! got a pic? If it has a soundhole and interested in the sound post idea, I've been really pleased with the affordable JDL bridge doctor...as used on my 'seagull' to falten out the board, obviously easier to do this as a preventative as I did and it remains dead flat and stable, even through different tunings...a subtle change to the tone, but very subtle. You might think that it might decrease volume hanging off the bridge like that, but it vibrates the back and so the back and the top from the rims. On a flat top guitar, all the pressure if pulling up on the guitar (unlike an arch top) and been very happy with the device, if your guitar is suitable. I was particularly keen to prevent any top movement or cracking (living by the sea in a hot country) form the all solid wood guitar, and as a mini jumbo, there is a fair amount of top area and had started bellying. guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/6883/godin-seagull-maritime-modifications?page=3There is a lot to be said for the 'platic guitars'...but that belly... If you ar a little arts and crafty, could I suggest making a foam cut to the shape suitable for the leg rest, taking out that curve where the leg sits, perhaps cover with some nice material if you can, and then...put some velcro stick on to the guitar when you need it. You could ven devise it to give a better posture for play, there are several prodocts of this kind ofthing, often for classicals to lift them up for better play, or just small guitars and could imagine that working quite well and comfortable and removable, after all, the back and sides are plastic, you wont hurt the finish!
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Post by ux4484 on Nov 9, 2013 5:09:34 GMT -5
Got a pleasant surprise today, a call from the shop telling me they registered my Applause with Ovation... it IS new (someone had put it in the "used" row). It's an AE128. Best feature on an Acoustic? string through bridge. The composite material on the back is quite grainy and textured (kind of like die cast material when broken), while not tactile enough to grab at fibers of shirts/pants, it's definitely more grippy than "real" Ovations I've played in the past. As long as I've got a little knee out, it's not slipping. If my knee is close to 90 degree's it's perfect.it's actually a tad weird standing with a strap, as the bowl of the guitar is against the bowl of myself and puts it pretty far out there, but a little hike on the strap up or down fixes that (up=Johnny Cash, down=Billy Gibbons). My Yamaha still wins for most comfortable to play standing up. The Bracing inside, looks... a little rough. There's some splinters at the cross joints (overhang from sloppy cuts). I'm kind of surprised at that as the Maderia(Guild) and Yamaha look almost as nice inside as out. They put new strings on it, so I can't get my phone or camera in there right now, I'll do it when I change strings next (or If i decide to start a project on it). Amplified, it sounds better than acoustically, the piezo and EQ, is richer than my Yamaha, alas that the acoustic tone is not as rich as the Yamaha. I can see how people get addicted to Ovations. A bigger one with a deeper bowl could easily go up against almost any dreadnought amplified. The acoustic volume is louder than the Washburn was(though not as smooth sounding or as easy to play) For finger picking, it sounds VERY rich, though strumming is best done lightly... as harder doesn't equate to louder the same as a regular acoustic (unless amplified). This is a very livable acoustic, and I think a better candidate for travel guitar than the Washburn. Amplified is the biggest surprise. I'm thinking I may have to hunt down and Ovation bridge element and EQ to put in the Yamaha (currently Yamaha/Fishman).
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Post by 4real on Nov 9, 2013 14:14:07 GMT -5
Glad you are liking the new guitar and for your purposes, I'm sure a good choice. Traditionally, the ovations were 'designed' to be electro acoustics, the original electronics/elements were/are not compatible with other makes, but then being a cheap version it may well be somthing generic. My seagul has Q1 electronics that I suspect might be LR Baggs, it's quite nice, and been appreciating the simple V/B/T controls (mine also has a tuner), but all piezios take a bit of work to get a good sound out of (going through that process a bit at the moment) and of course, suitable amplification for an acoustic guitar. Always been fascinated with alternative cost effective and strong moulded 'plasitc' acoustics, they dont always sound the best but they are practical. If the bracing and such are a bit rough, it's likely a reflection of the economy, it might indicate they put the money into the materials over the 'finishing' work, but not sure that there is any indication that the wood being a 'bit rough' really makes much difference tothe sound or strength. It's also a thin body guitar and perhaps stiffer from the bowl, and this can acount for assisting with the electric sound as well. Being a 'thin bowled' type, it could expect to be a little lacking in some acoustic qualities, but everything tends to be a trad off...
The 'string through' bridge I also like, ovations were always designed so and a few others do too, you need the bridge to be designed for that to happen (bridge break over point), but a nice feature. Be sure to watch any 'lifting' of teh bridge as all the pull is trying to pull the bridge off,b ut perhaps they have thought of that and screwed it down, there appears to be some pearl dots behind the strings on the bridge.
The great thing about thes 'plastic' guitar though, IMO is that you dont tend to ahve to be too precious...my new guitar always ahs to return to the case and have to worry about temperature and such. You too will have to watch that the top and such are not effected adversely by temperature changes and heating and all that, so no, you can't leave it outside, especially if the top is solid spruce!!! Other than the back and sides, the neck and top are as fragile as ever.
It might be suitable for something like the JLD top brace, it kind of works as a canterlever to the top, a kind of top truss rod. However, you'd need to take a good look inside and measure a few things to see if it would be compatible. You need a certain amount of 'depth' to it and an 'end block' for it to push against. Keep a good eye on the top to see if it moves or the bridge as there are no pins and take a look inside before considering it.
I too have always found the ovation 'bowl' a bit of a handicap with all that slipping and sliding, but that's the way they are. But for your purposes it sounds like the right kind of instrument for your purposes and glad you are happy with it. Acoustics can be a bit of a beast to get around than an electric and take a bit of work compared to an electric but there are so many rewards, good to see I'm not the only one around here playing with them ... likely wont require the trick wiring phase switching and such, but then one could always play with the amplifier end to get a better sound ;-)
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Post by ux4484 on Nov 21, 2013 4:43:12 GMT -5
3rd times a charm... hopefully. The Applause WOULD have been an excellent candidate for a JDL brace, as after just over two weeks, it started losing tuning every morning, almost a half step across the board. I looked and tuners. I took a string off and verified it wasn't slipping, then took a pic of the tuners one night to see if they moved overnight, they didn't. I looked at the top, there was already a hump behind the bridge! Back to the shop I went. They were amazed as I was, while the tech was looking in the sound hole with an inspection mirror, the trim ring of the sound holle POPPED OFF! He commented on how messy the joints of the bracing were, and said: "Go pick something else out" I had to add some cash, but decided my previous price point ($200 USD) wasn't going to get me something duralble enough. I really liked the Applause, so I decided to stay in the Ovation family and get a used CC44 Celebrity medium depth bowl. I liked that the top was more than twice as thick, and had formed- fiber cross bracing as opposed to the messy wood ones on the Applause. It is a much better made guitar, and has a handy round access panel in the back of the bowl. It's much richer sounding acoustically than the Applause (though not as good as my Yamaha or Maderia). Amplified, it sounds BETTER than my Yamaha. The solid top with the multiple sound holes tends to highlight the midrange as opposed to the very high's and very low's the Applause did. With the deeper bowl it does broadcast better as well. When you play sitting down, the volume is much lounder that a conventional sound hole (probably because they're closer to your ear) The strings are fairly new (D'Addario's), but I imagine a string change will bring some changes. It is China made, but has many more REAL Ovation parts in it than the Applause (The bowl, and the internal bracing are marked "Made in USA"). It's a few years old, and the top is very flat, so I think it'll be more durable than the Applause.
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Post by 4real on Nov 21, 2013 14:57:10 GMT -5
Dear of dear, you have not been having too much luck with these gutiars, other than you can take them back ~ always amazed about that... The design of teh offest soundholes maximises 'top space' and provides more strength where it's needed in the 'top' y ommiting that huge traditional sound hole. The player also gets to hear a bit more sound as well... There is a slow 'trend' towards 'side vents' and such ~ the coolest I've seen are these 'bevel flutes' ~ How cool and comfortable is that, and strong to on that edge. Providing sound to the player. It's always a problem forthe acoustic that the player is in the worst place to actually hear it! Hence, now working on so much 'gear' to make that happen lately!! There are other features of the ovation to like, the headstock, like my seagull' is pretty much a straight string pull over the nut for instance. But top movement is always a problem with any kind of acoustic, with an archtop there is compression, and a flat top, significant pulling up on a top. I'm pleased with the results from the JDL which I did, not so much because there had been much movement at all or the reputed sound benefits, but becuse it does indeed counteract the forces with this 'truss'. Breedlove are one of the few makers to embrace this on the higher end guitars and design for it, with far lighter bracing on the top given that the JDL takes the raw strain on it. I live near the sea and with quite a bit of temperature change (heat, humidity, etc) and I'd have hated to see the top deteriorate and crack. Or. to have to struggle with tuning stability. Even the normal change of the other strings when using dropped tunings is a PITA, and this kind of thing (or the more extreme 'jazz box' struts, really did address this (though in the J-B project the neck is still a bit flexible). Understand that the 'locking tuner' thing is not that that actual tuners 'lock', they work as normal, so it is not as if they move (if so, once can generally tighten tuners up with the screw at the end of the button to provide more friction, something I almost always ahve to do when ever I look at someones guitar), nor so much that the string is held in by the pressure from the winds (I've always tended to 'tie' the string on as a rule by going through the hole twice and ahvingthe wind go over the end (PITA for string changes though)) but that Locking tuners, eliminate the winds completely. The playing length of a string will soon stretch out and be stable, but these winds never do and so tend not to be 'stable'. Tuned to standard above, there are no full winds at all! I'm not finding tuning problems, even after changing strings, bending strings, retuning strings and stays in tune without drift' for days if now weeks and a fair amount of playing. That's not to say the original 'shaller-like' seagull tuners weren't very good, but the benefits are so great to me, I'm not sure why they aren't used and seen more. The JDL, so simple and cheap really, amazed that that has not been exploited more as well and perhaps designed around it. Certaily something to consider (though, clearly not possible on the 'applause' design. The plastic bowl thing is interesting, but I do find that ovations are way too 'bowl like' agaist the belly and slips off and somehow a little uncomfortable, but then so is the 'edges' in a convention acoustic like mine. Whcn you consider how much work goes into constructing that 'box' and how fragile it is, you'd think there would be significant benefits to costs and potentially ergonomics and you'd see more of this kind of thing. Even 'all plastic' guitars like 'rainsongs' ahve been getting rave reviews compared to the more conventional guitars and are virtually indestructable. It's an interesting time for acoustic gutiars as there has been a lot of really interesting and novel ideas lately, so strange that the electric is so conservative compared to bass and now acoustic designers and innovation ~
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Post by ux4484 on Nov 22, 2013 2:16:10 GMT -5
Dear of dear, you have not been having too much luck with these gutiars, other than you can take them back ~ always amazed about that... The design of teh offest soundholes maximises 'top space' and provides more strength where it's needed in the 'top' y ommiting that huge traditional sound hole. The player also gets to hear a bit more sound as well... It's always a problem forthe acoustic that the player is in the worst place to actually hear it! Hence, now working on so much 'gear' to make that happen lately!! There are other features of the ovation to like, the headstock, like my seagull' is pretty much a straight string pull over the nut for instance. Understand that the 'locking tuner' thing is not that that actual tuners 'lock', they work as normal, so it is not as if they move (if so, once can generally tighten tuners up with the screw at the end of the button to provide more friction, something I almost always ahve to do when ever I look at someones guitar), nor so much that the string is held in by the pressure from the winds (I've always tended to 'tie' the string on as a rule by going through the hole twice and ahvingthe wind go over the end (PITA for string changes though)) but that Locking tuners, eliminate the winds completely. The playing length of a string will soon stretch out and be stable, but these winds never do and so tend not to be 'stable'. I'm not finding tuning problems, even after changing strings, bending strings, retuning strings and stays in tune without drift' for days if now weeks and a fair amount of playing. That's not to say the original 'shaller-like' seagull tuners weren't very good, but the benefits are so great to me, I'm not sure why they aren't used and seen more. The JDL, so simple and cheap really, amazed that that has not been exploited more as well and perhaps designed around it. Certaily something to consider (though, clearly not possible on the 'applause' design. Amazed that they'll take them back? Most everyone offers you 30-45 days return on guitars here in the states on new gear. Even on used gear, most shops will give you a refund period of 14 days unless marked "as is". Sam Ash gives you 45 days refund, and 90 day exchange or store credit. This shop is a local shop, they offer 30 days on new and 14 days on used, but they have a gauranteed trade in value, after that period; they'll give you 70% of you original price paid (if in "like new" condition) for two years if you "trade up", and pro-rated after that. In most things, I am not a "buyers remorse" kind of guy, after spending time and selecting something, It drives me nuts to have to go through the process again, but I'm not going to hold on to and fix something broken when I have an option. Locking tuners: Yes on my electrics... not so much on my acoustics. The Yamaha and Maderia (Guild) have such stable tuners it seems a shame to replace them. It would make string changes lightning fast on the Ovation, but on the other two, since they have pegs... not so much. I don't tie a knot, I just do an inch of slack and get one over and one under wind past the string end, I've never had a problem on the acoustics using that method. When I got the strings off, four of the Celebrity's tuners were loose and flopping due to the end screws being loose (always one of my first checks as well). I may consider locking tuners on the Ovation though, as since it will be traveling, a quick string change could come in handy. The headstock is very cramped with the (fairly small) Ovation tuners on it, and they have a mounting screw as well. I don't care for the gold (it's the only hardware that IS gold). If I go locking, I think I'll try to find something that would fit with no drilling required The bowl on the Celebrity is their "mid-depth" bowl, about 1 inch thicker at the middle than my Yamaha. It's strangely comfortable to play standing up with a strap a bit higher than I'm used to (though it gives me a Mariachi playing stance). On the lap, it's a bit worse for slippage than the Applause, but there will be a strap on it all the time in the bag. The strap is a must for lap playing with this one. I did take some pics of the inside and bracing when I put new strings on, also cleaned it, adjusted the relief a tad, and found one of the bridge mount screws slightly loose (the bridge is glued and bolted to the top with bracing shims spanning a few inches in each direction on the inside of the guitar). This guitar is about 6 years old, and the top is very stable, I'll keep an eye on it to see if needs something like the JDL brace. I'm already thinking it needs a strap peg jack installed. Lastly... it did have a cigarette smoke smell to it (inside, not out) As my used gear protocol is to clean with baby wipes first, I did the inside of the bowl as well. The smell still lingered in the wood, so a fresh coffee filter sealed shut with some fresh ground beans is now working it's magic on the inside of the guitar. A few days of leaving it in the stand (and playing it often to move the air in the bowl) should do it.
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Post by 4real on Nov 22, 2013 18:11:43 GMT -5
Well, the locking tuners I got into with the tremolo electrics in recent years. The acoustic, only because of the use of altered tuings and how much easier it was to change strings (or indeedw work on the guitars)...if the tuners are adequate and do the job there's no real need. Tuners ahve improved generally, but for certain there are some that are a lot better than others.
String pegs would be good to replace some times, but there are limits to the acoustic design to allow that to happen, pegs are generally the easiest and sensible solution if the bridge design is low and flat, you just dont have the space to do the alternative and the strings are going right thogu into the guitar that way, anchoring the bridge down, as opposed to trying to 'rip' the bridge off. Ovation bolting the bridge down instead, is a good way of addressign that potential problem...
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Post by Double Yoi on Nov 23, 2013 9:19:10 GMT -5
Spit my coffee out!!!
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Post by newey on Nov 27, 2013 23:32:12 GMT -5
Perusing Ash's recent link to the GFS/Xavier guitars, I noticed they have a travel model for a mere $119. This looks very similar to my Hofner travel guitar, which was also about $120, but I've spent an additional $30 to upgrade the pickup to a GFS, which this guitar has as standard. I put a Dream 90 in the Hofner, however. But given what we've heard about the quality of the Xaviers for the $$$, this may be a better deal. No tone control, though. www.guitarfetish.com/Xaviere-JTT-Travel-Guitar-Solid-Alder-Surf-Green_p_2212.html
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Post by ux4484 on Nov 28, 2013 1:46:40 GMT -5
Looks like it would fit in the Rover's case. String through body is a nice touch... The tension bar... Not so much. I know that a tension bar doesn't scream "cheap" nowadays as it did in the Teisco/Kingston days, but you know with that short scale and the bar you're going to have fun tuning (though the string path looks pretty straight from the pics).
Nice bag for $20 too.
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Post by ux4484 on Dec 22, 2013 1:43:31 GMT -5
We did our xmas caroling tonight (as last weekend fell apart) since it's raining and near freezing here, we hit a mall that allowed us in as we weren't collecting money. By the end of our night, my left hand was completely numb with the Celebrity (standing mostly). I thought it was age, but when we got home and everyone wanted to sing a few more (non-xmas) songs, I thought I was through with my numb left hand. I decided to grab my Yamaha APX5... I had NO problem whatsoever playing for another two hours (standing or sitting). The thinner body and flat back made it seem I hadn't been playing at all for the previous three hours (maybe the few beers helped?). I think the Celebrity with it's almost dreadnought deep body is just a poor playing angle standing. Guitar center had a Koa apx500 ( Koa version of my guitar with a tuner). I think I should go with what works.
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Post by ux4484 on Jan 23, 2014 2:28:20 GMT -5
On many repeated attempts, the Celebrity is just too deep, and playing standing causes my left wrist to be at such an angle as to make my hand go numb. No such problem sitting with it. I'm sure if I lost some weight, it would help alleviate the problem. Though no such problem on my yamaha or any of the electrics. Now I'm thinkin' with my irig (And/or the micro cube), I should just give up on an acoustic, and go cheap/durable electric for travel. Possibly?... Peavey predator plus Korea Needs some cleaning, but can be had for $55 at a local pawn shop. The Bridge and tuners look like new.
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Post by ux4484 on Feb 28, 2014 11:50:40 GMT -5
Finally gave in as posted in the Bullet Tele thread to go with a comfortable cheap throwaway Squier Bullet Tele. But I saw another thing for anyone interested that was a close second: A Peavey Rockmaster, a little single pup Strat style axe with a headphone amp (clean and distortion modes), tuner, and headphone jack. This guitar is also basswood (though heavier than the bullet) has a decent clean sound through earbuds (distortion was overkill and muddy), and can be had for $79 from GC and MF. It's very playable, no sharp fret ends, but no real personality either, it's very quiet acoustically But consider this, in a bag gets you a playable throwaway with no accessories required... and it's a little '51-ish. The Bullet Tele feels much better in my hands, and has tons more personality plugged into an amp, but while not small, this Peavey is a good value travel guitar.
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