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Post by sumgai on Mar 1, 2011 22:55:31 GMT -5
4r, I have the latest Flash player. The problem is that PB wants to place cookies, both standard and Flash-type, on my drive. Needless to say of course, that ain't gonna happen. Too bad for them.
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Post by 4real on Mar 1, 2011 23:58:32 GMT -5
Fair, perhaps there are other ways to share without PB...I did notice it took forever to upload and hten converted my flies to MP4...doh!
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Post by JFrankParnell on Mar 30, 2011 22:56:04 GMT -5
Grimly Fiendish - by the Damned:
Grimly fiendish plays the game that never plays Sing out loud but never prayed Grimly fiendish wears a coat thats black and long He doesn’t know that it’s all wrong Simply fiendish, a child caught in a grown up world No lies convince the court Em-------Bm---Bb--------B -A -G--------------Gm--------------D Once a week I could be-------found on the faces all the frowns
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Post by 4real on Apr 7, 2011 23:22:21 GMT -5
Nice find....I remember that song from long ago...
This came up again recently as I am studying a bit of keyboards and songwriting stuff...so in the book 'how to write songs on keyboards' but rikky rootsby (interesting straight forward book without notation...known for his guitar book of the same name)...
He has some 'unique' personal names for chord progressions and functions that are kind of useful...like 'reverse polarity chords' that allow key changes I gather...but more OT is...
The Slush-Maker
LOL...the IVm chord!
"The IV minor has an instantly recognisable tragic-but-sweet- gloom about it that hasd made it popular in romantic ballards and MOR songwrting. If you wish to darken a song in an appealing way, reach for a IVm. It is pure melodrama. In the right context - such as a James Bond theme song - (think of 'you only live twice') it can be simultaneously erotic, grandiose and forlorn. Think of the darkest hour before the dwn. Think of a prisoner's last meal turning out to be a huge slice of cheesecake. Think of Bryan Adams singing "I'll die for you" in 'everything I Do'. That's the IVm for you. The art of using the IVb often lies in the choice of appraoch chord. A common note is helpful, so for example, the Dm in bar seven here (gives example of C - F - Dm - Fm/c - G/b - C) has an F in it, which makes a good preparation for the Fm chord"
He goes on to how it is common in a lot of turnarounds...which is true, the first I learned was the old A-A7-D-Dm-A-F-E7 blues move come to think of it!
He also shows how it can be used in clever way to change key...very sneaky...the Fm in C could be for instance IIm in Eb major or a VIm in Ab Major or any number of keys that share a minor chord and move to unexpected places. Can't find too many examples but could make some really interesting effects where the expectation is this 'slush-maker' effect (LOL) but ends up going to a completely different key instead for a chorus perhaps or bridge section...very cool.
It's a cool book though written in this style, not sure what the guitar version is like...but tiny chapters with examples are titled "how to make chords more romantic" (add Maj7th to the I ad IV chords), "blues more bluesy (add dom7ths), minor chords less sad (add the b7), minor chords more threatening (add the maj7 for a 'slinky and threatening sound"), "major chords more exotic" (add the maj6th), 'more dramatic' (sus4 chords), enigmatic (sus2 chords), breezier (add2), minor chords more tragic (minor add 9), sophisticated (aug4), rock (power chords)...
It's amazing how many tricks there are to manipulating the music to convey extra meaning to a lyric and song and how easily we all seem to form a consensus on the meaning of the sound of a IVm for instance without having to know what is going on. Once you know though, they do seem to turn up everywhere...I've had to ban it for a bit as it was turning up everywhere in my exercises and I was getting buried in 'slush' for a while there!
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Post by JFrankParnell on Apr 12, 2011 0:47:39 GMT -5
Frank Black - Sunday Sunny Mill Valley Groove Day Album: Honeycomb Orig: Doug Sahm - Sir Douglas Quintet
C (12 beats) C G
C E7 F C When there's nothing left to say And all the clouds have faded away C C/B Am D7 Dm And my mind wanders out there across the bay C E7 F Fm Just to be there in the mornin' With the sun comin through the trees C E7 F G Well you know there ain't no place I'd rather be
Frank Black is the singer of the Pixies, who you may recall started this thread.
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 26, 2011 10:15:34 GMT -5
Uriah Heep - Circle Of Hands
bridge: F C We must keep them away F C Or pretty soon we'll pay F C And count the cost in sorrow F C F C Sacrifice - the future has it's price F And today is only Fm C Yesterday's tomorrow
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jun 2, 2011 10:57:45 GMT -5
It only happens once in this song, but still... Tenacious D - The Government Totally Sucks E Ab A B The USAAAAAA, yeah! Bring back the USAAAA, yeah! E Ab A The f king USAAAA yeah! Am (upstroke) Bring back the US! E The government totally sucks!
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jul 26, 2011 1:17:37 GMT -5
From the verse to the bridge, Am -> A major tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/m/misc_soundtrack/jesus_christ_superstar_-_pilates_dream_crd.htm[verse:] Am Dm G i dreamed i met a galilean Am a most amazing man Bb E F he had that look you very rarely find F6 E Am the haunting, hunted kind [verse:] i asked him to say how it had happened how it all began i asked again, he never said a word as if he hadn't heard [bridge:] A Dm and next the room was full of wild and angry men G Em they seemed to hate this man C they fell on him and then E disappeared again Then I saw thousands of millions Crying for this man And then I heard them mentioning my name - And leaving me the blame
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Post by roadtonever on Jul 28, 2011 15:14:05 GMT -5
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jul 28, 2011 22:34:08 GMT -5
nice one, RTN I'll Be Back The Beatles Hard Day's Night VERSE Am G6 Fmaj7 You know, if you break my heart I'll go E7 A But I'll be back again Am G6 Fmaj7 Cause I, told you once before goodbye E7 A Am A But I came back again CHORUS F#m I love you so, I'm the one who wants you, Bm yes I'm the one who wants you D E7 D E7 Oh ho oh ho VERSE Oh you, could find better things to do Than to break my heart again This time, I will try to show that I Am not trying to pretend BRIDGE Bm C#m I thought that you would realize that if I F#m ran away from you B7 D E7 That you would want me too but I got a big surprise Oh ho Oh ho OUTTRO A Am A
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Post by 4real on Aug 31, 2011 3:18:45 GMT -5
Some good examples there, interesting to see how the sound of it is reflected in the lyrics. Been away for a bit, but I think of this thread often as I seem to be seeing this all over the place and with various variations. Been learning a bit of steely dan and jazz stuff (fingerpicking) and even some pop and soul things make extensive use of these minor shifts...perhaps I am just attracted by that sound lol
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Post by JFrankParnell on Sept 27, 2011 21:02:17 GMT -5
Radiohead - Creep G You float like a feather B In a beautiful weather C I wish I was special Cm You're so f king special Chorus: G But I'm a creep B I'm a wierdo C What the hell am I doin' here Cm I don't belong here I came across this cover orig:
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 27, 2011 22:54:42 GMT -5
Can't believe that one never occurred to me!
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Post by 4real on Dec 26, 2011 18:26:28 GMT -5
I've been discovering hundreds of tunes that use variations on this kind of minIV effect in all kinds of tunes...
This morning been playing "if you don't know my by now" and the arrangement I've been working on notes it and played as a Bdim7 which it kind of is and opens up a huge range of things to play with with this symetrical 7th chord...but in the tune...
C If you dont know me by Em Now.........you will F(9) Never, never never know me Fm7 (or B dim7) Ooooh, ooh, ooh...
I think you can hear that 'reflective, melancholy' effect as if thinking about that last line there.
As a Bdim7 it is a dominant chord leading back to the C tonic and resolving that tension. In the verses, it goes to the G as the V.
In the middle 8 though, it changes the whole key suddenly up to Eb...so the relative major of the minor tonic key...The major of C minor...
Eb Don't get so excited Abmaj7/Eb When I come home late at night Fm7 'Cause we only act like children Dm7 When we argue, fuss and fight G...Am7...G/B
This winds it's way back to the Fm (minIV of the original key C where the song is headed from the sudden change) with the chords kind of evolving...then for that 'climax' on the last line the melancholy effect is reversed...
The Ab in the Fmin chord becomes A in the Dmin and creates a ii-V-I back into the chorus in C. The reverse effect is kind of more 'emphatic', a little "don't be like that" musical effect to match the words and bringing everything back to the original key.
For completeness, the verses go something like...
C all the things Em(b6) that we've been through F You should understand me G(sus)(6) Like I understand you...
...
Thinking of the Fmin (minIV) as a kind of diminished chord makes for some interesting licks and ways of modulating and other voicings, bass lines and progressions. Basically an Fm7b5 is the same notes as Bdim7. Being a symmetrical chord, dim7 chords are built of a stack of min 3rds, they are also the same notes as dim7 chords 3frets apart...
So... Bdim7 = Abdim7 = Ddim7 = Fdim7
Again, you can see how it is used effectively for that added 'schmaltz' effect...and reversed it has a kind of 'pleading and emphatic' kind of feeling to it...
...
Anyway, noting this in this tune this morning sparks a few ideas and interesting to see the effect in 'reverse' in a way and reflects the intent of the lyric pretty well.
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Post by ijustwannastrat on Dec 27, 2011 22:02:59 GMT -5
Not sure if anybody said this yet, and I am far to tired to check, but Hotel California!
Bm --> F# --> A --> E --> G --> D --> Em --> F#
Key? I've been told it's the key of D
Key of D? Then where does the A# in the F3, and the G# in the E come from?
Something to do with harmonic minor key. I've already forgotten what's going on in the middle of writing this. But hey, I know what scales I can play ontop of the chords, so it isn't all that bad!
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Post by reTrEaD on Dec 27, 2011 23:21:05 GMT -5
Key? I've been told it's the key of D Key of D? Then where does the A# in the F3, and the G# in the E come from? Not exactly D. B minor. B minor shares the same key signature as D. G# would be a raised 6th (compared to the natural minor) A# would be a raised 7th (compared to the natural minor) So that suggests melodic minor.
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Post by 4real on Dec 28, 2011 0:38:09 GMT -5
Something to do with harmonic minor key. I've already forgotten what's going on in the middle of writing this. But hey, I know what scales I can play ontop of the chords, so it isn't all that bad!
Well...there is no min IV in this one...desperado is a good example of that effect as per the title of this thread.
Not D but it's relative minor Bm. F# where it starts and seems to go to clearly feels like it wants to resolve to Bm so is the V of that key and makes perfect sense.
Don't fall into the trap of thinking that a tune needs to start or finish on a particular 'tonic chord' or home key, certainly not the key signature either.
Minors can be a little confusing...there are numerous minors and things will often mix minor modes and one can not expect things to stay fixed throughout a progression. It's not a matter of one scale fits all, but then it is perfectly as valid to use a pentatonic scale or combination of them or modes or to play off the chords or the melody itself...whatever works...what is your approach to finding notes that work on this progression?
You can take a typical minor progression of Am-G-F a'la stairway to heaven...so i-bVII-BVI. This is more of a natural minor or aeolian mode perhaps...(Cmajor scale notes from A). A tune that might have the major IV chord (say Am-D-E) a'la a lot of santana say, well perhaps better off with a dorian mode that has an F# rather than F natural.
Harmonic minor, well that gives you the leading tone...so in the Hotel Cali progression it is found in the F# as A#
There are lots of ways of looking at such things, but lets just look at it from the scale perspective...it is a mix of minor modes...so, natural minor in B
B,C#,D,E.F#,G,A,B = B natural minor, aeolian mode (or if one must, D major starting on B) B,C#,D,E.F#,G#,A,B = B dorian (G# instead of G) B,C#,D,E.F#,G#,A#,B + B harmonic minor (kind of a B major with a minor third)
Another way to look at this progression is from a chordal view. Perhaps that things sound in pairs, I think most people hear that in this song.
Bm --> F# A --> E G --> D Em --> F#
So, the first is i - V in Bm. Now,assuming you like the sound of this change. Lets simplify things by omitting some of the pairs...all of which are I-V's so, take out the V's...
Bm - x - A - x - G
Again, we have the old i-bVII-bVI 'stairway' like progression that perfectly takes on the Natural Minor scale (or transposed relative major...in this case D starting of B). One could use this scale and ignore the alterations in the harmony if one chooses as the ear is hearing all those V's as an elaboration of the underlying typical minor sequence....with a little extra colour.
The Em is normal in the Natural Minor and the F# returns the domV of the key and so anticipating a return to the start of the sequence.
Hope that makes a little sense, most things have very simple and repetitive sequences underlying things.
The chorus gets a 'lift' by moving the major F# up a semi tone...
G - D - Em - F#
Almost as if moving into the key of G major...you will know the effect of 'lifting up a song' with a so called 'arrangers modulation' by just moving the whole song up a semitone...a little clichéd but always has this effect.
However the return of the F# reminds us that this is not G but Bm...repeating the chorus progression gives us another does of this effect, before settling back into the more sombre minor mode/s again.
...
You generally can't get away with so much in Major modes, perhaps in the blues and rock you can play with a lot of Mixolydian (b7) effects or even force flat 3rds with minor soloing over things...or a mixture a'la Page, et al who use a lot of maj/min mixes on such tunes.
You rarely hear 'lydian' as it's #4 does not fit well with the IV chord...
But in minor progressions, it is quite common to mix things up and borrow from the Major scales harmonic drive, especially the leading tone, to give things more direction.
Examples might include "sultan's of swing', 'runaway' or a hundred other examples...surf fav too with that 'spanish sounding bVI-V cadence at the end...
..Dm - C -Bb - A i - bVII - bVI - V
Again, the old 'stairway' thing with a V at the end bringing back a strong drive to the home minor key. Again, the leading tone C# arrives to serve that function.
One can merrily solo away or write a melody that is in natural minor and then as knophler does, add in the Amaj not of C# on that 'turnaround' of the repeating sequence.
Mixing the minor modes can add a little more sophistication to things, alter things a little to accommodate the changes.
...
I confess that my primary approach is to use the pentatonic scale and add notes to it depending upon the sequence and where that is appropriate to outline a change.
So...In Am...to make things clearer...
Am pentatonic Minor A,C,D,E,G,(A) so two notes short of a seven note mode... Add in B (the 2nd/9th) for natural minor or dorian or harmonic minor...so a safe bet... so A,B,C,D,E,G,(A) If there is an F major chord, Dminor chord or stuff with an F in it...well...natural minor, add F... so A,B,C,D,E,F,G,(A) If it has a major IV as is often the case in vamps and minor blues...add in F# and you have the dorian mode A,B,C,D,E,G,F#,(A) IF there is a domV chord as in the examples above...add in the leading tone, G# A,B,C,D,E,G#,F#,(A) gives you a kind of major scale with a b3rd
There are heaps of minor variations...we have not covered the Phrigian mode... A,Bb,C,D,E,(A) This can be quite good for it's characteristic 'gypsy' like sound, with the right progression to support it...but it is also useful at times as the b6 note tends to 'lean' back to the A and so, on a change to a Dm chord, it makes and effective kind of 'smooth' change.
Some of these things get a little obscure and uncommon in pop music...but rather than attempt to memorise every combination of notes and a lot of greek names for everything (though it can be good to have a name for things at times) I prefer to use the five note pentatonics as a 'scaffold' and then add notes to suit the progression or when a progression changes. There are other approaches of course, like arpeggios and the like, but this gives an easier way to get the same tools in an intuitive way.
...
Understanding how to break things down a little and the similarity of just about everything helps when confronted by such things or if trying to develop something of your own.
Take a common progression like I-bVII-bVI and see how many ways you can make alterations of it. Look at other tunes and see how many of them are essentially the same thing underneath (probably the most common minor progression is this one). Learn the generic progressions of other tunes in major keys (eg I-vi-IV-V or C-Am-F-G) and see how many tunes use this kind of thing.
Here is an interesting video that cleverly demonstrates how this works if you can bend your mind to it on such a progression...
sixty songs in 7 seconds...
in this case the progression G-D-Em-C or I-V-vi-IV in G...
'with or without you' to 'soul to squeeze' to 'can you feel the love tonight' to...'you're beautiful'...and so it goes...
Take similar progressions and see how things fit melodically and how similar just about everything to a few basic standard progressions. At first you might feel a little disillusioned, but that is where the real art is, to make something new out of something that is underneath it all so familiar...as in the example brought to the table...
No real MinIV effect as in desperado in Hotel though, as per this thread... G-G7-C-Cm ...but the egles were fond of this effect too.
It's hard to have the same effect in minor modes, but one could consider the change from using the Major IV (E major) through the verse (implying Dorian mode) to be similar as it does change to the MinIV later in the sequence (Natural minor mode).
However...there is a hint in it...as elsewhere in this thread, it is instructive to see how the harmony supports or reflects the sentiment of the lyrics with such changes. We have noted that the minIV chord has a universal feeling of melancholy and reflection, remorse or regret or inner remembrance
Now, take this verse...
Her mind is tiffany-twisted, she got the mercedes bends She got a lot of pretty, pretty boys, that she calls friends How they dance in the courtyard, sweet summer sweat. Some dance to remember, some dance to forget
or
There were voices down the corridor (notice the past tense) Wake you up in the middle of the night The stab it with their steely knives You can checkout any time you like
However the effect is not quite the same or as strong as it is in a minor key. What is the interesting thing though is the juxtaposition of these kinds of minIV effect with the 'punch lie' which borrowing from the Major key and domV chord (F#) things are a lot more emphatic and suggestive of a 'snap out of it' moment...which is kind of cool there.
I had to stop for the night I thought I heard them say... some dance to forget bring your alibis they just can't kill the beast But you can never leave!
It is a great use of a harmony supporting the nature of a progression lyrically there, touches of this kind of thing and certainly the kind of effective use of harmony and lyrics to make the story seem more vivid.
It is kind of a good thing to note how great songs do draw all this kind of thing together and how they work, how you might exploit a bit of the same or help you recognise such effects and so intestinally sense where to change a scale a touch or what a progression is in the first place...
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Post by JFrankParnell on Feb 5, 2012 22:52:47 GMT -5
"Nobody Home" by Pink Floyd off the soundtrack to the movie "THE WALL" C7 I got electric light and I got second sight F Fm C E7 Am D7 got amazing powers of observation Am C+ C D7 F Fm C I've got a little black book with my poems in E got a bag with a toothbrush and a comb in F C when I'm a good dog they sometimes throw me a bone in F C I've got elastic bands keeping my shoes on E E7 got those swollen hand blues F C got thirteen channels of s t on the TV to choose from C7 I got electric light and I got second sight F Fm C E7 Am D7 got amazing powers of observation G E7 and that is how I know Am C6 C D when I try to get thru on the telephone to you Fm6 C F C There'll be nobody home. I've got the obligatory Hendrix perm And the inevitable pinhole burns All down the front of my favourite satin shirt I've got nicotine stains on my fingers I've got a silver spoon on a chain Got a grand piano to prop up my mortal remains I've got wide staring eyes & I've got a strong urge to fly But I've got nowhere to fly to (fly to fly to fly to fly to) Ooooh babe, why not pick up the phone? There's still nobody home. C I've got a pair of Gohill's boots E E7 But I got fading roots.
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Post by 4real on Feb 22, 2012 0:30:22 GMT -5
Ahhh...the tread that will not die...
Here's one that I just found that is a super effective use of the minIV chord.
Every little thing she does is magic...the police.
Check out the 'interlude' which seems to go to the 'parallel minor' with not only the minIV but minV also...you can really feel that fall into this 'mode' and the kind of melancholy reminiscence that this kind of thing evokes...
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Post by JFrankParnell on Feb 22, 2012 0:48:31 GMT -5
yeah, i love that song, so much going on. The bass playing is sublime, the build ups and the space... Oh i forgot to mention a part that always makes me chuckle about Nobody Home: E ...................E7 got those swollen hand blues Talking about the having 'the blues' when he goes from E to E7, the 'bluesey' version of E...lol! Cracks me up.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Apr 10, 2012 8:54:25 GMT -5
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Post by ozboomer on Apr 15, 2012 7:46:15 GMT -5
Examples might include "sultan's of swing', 'runaway' or a hundred other examples...surf fav too with that 'spanish sounding bVI-V cadence at the end...
..Dm - C -Bb - A i - bVII - bVI - V This has piqued my curiosity again... but have found my knowledge kind-of wanting... I often wonder about this with Surf... It's often quoted that Surf has a 'Spanish feel' at times.. but I think maybe it's more complicated than that. For example, have a look at this Guitar Player article (particularly the section titled '7 CULTIVATE A TASTE FOR THE EXOTIC')... which talks about the (altered?) Phrygian mode.. one of the many things I'm not flash on. In recent months, I've been coming to grips (somewhat) with major (and some minor) chords in inversions, all across the neck (thanks to CAGED)... and it's led to a better understanding of the 'note resources' available, for both rhythm and solo figures. So, these days, I'll start looking at the chord tones (eg 1-3-5)... and playing the chords in inversions.. Then arpeggiate those tones (whilst maybe adding a 2nd/9th)... add 2 more notes to get the relevant pentatonic scale (and remember the Major-Relative Minor relationship)... add 2 more notes and you're playing the whole scale. I still have to get my head/finger muscles/memory working together well.. but this little bit of knowledge has been a gold mine and will likely see me out before I have some major control over it... ...but it still begs the question about Surf music and what it is about it that appeals (to me, anyway). From the quoted article (amongst other references), it's obviously more than just the (pure) Phryigian mode for melodies... but what about options for chord progressions? ...or, like 4real's 'The Most Ultimate Guitar Lesson Ever' video (owing much to the Axis of Awesome 'original'(!?)), are there just some chord progressions that are 'Classic Surf' and as long as we stick to them, our tunes will sound 'surfy' (and derivative)? Any thoughts? ...I guess my natural geek-i-ness/the-or-o-file-ness is coming out here, making me 'want to know why/how'...(!) John
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Post by 4real on Apr 18, 2012 9:35:27 GMT -5
Hmmm...
Well, the 'minor iv' thing is a bit different from most 'surf' though it could apply, see the bridge to 'sleepwalk' for instance to see these minor things.
Surf is a bigger genre than is often given credit for. Dick Dale certainly had a big influence on some of these 'exotic' sounds.
There are some classic 'cadences that sound 'Spanish' or 'phrigian' especially in that bvi to V chord kind of thing.
Great work by the way in getting to know the fretboard and scales btw... keep it up.
Minors though have quite a few variations and even their own cadences to come to grips with. Modes, like the minor modes which are most commonly used, come in different flavours and progressions and should not be considered as a 'major scale' starting on a different note...such a s D Dorian being C major starting on D even though this will give you the right sequence of notes.
So...a litttle late here, time for sleep...
But there are a few classic 'surf like progressions, many of them 'minor'...very common is the old i-bVII-bVi-V thing that I always associate with the song 'runaway...so Am-G-F-E is typical. It is not that 'exotic' being indigenous to the natural minor or aeolian mode...so in Am, the notes A,B,C,D,E,F,G...if you build up the triads from this common minor scale, you will see that the chords G and F and E are all clear and so often you will get the V proceeded by the bVI chord of that E-F thing.
The 'odd note out' in this might see to be that G# in E rather than G natural, however this is the leading tone of A, a bit 'calssical' perhaps and seems to be chromatic with that semitone up to A but it is quite common for the V chord to be 'major-ised' to provide a strong pull back to the tonic chord...ad the dom7 and you get an even stronger pull fo the note D back to the third of the tonic. One oculd tray and force some kind of 'harmonic minor' "neo classical" shtick to this. but reallyt his is kind of a synthetic scale as is the melodic minor that kind of acconts for these progressions. The more sane appraoch is to alter scales where these kinds of progressions make these kinds of moves, or force the minor tird over them as well like a #9 kind of sound and so getting more 'exotic' (as appears in the classic so called 'hendrix chord' of E7#9. There is a tradition in both classical and jazz harmony to do this kind of things and this just permeates through even to surf which is a a bit of a scavenging genre...in the niceset possible way.
For a more exotic treatment, look to dick dale and tunes like 'Miserlou' which uses a kind of exotic scale, the fancy name escapes me (if it really ahd a name), but are the notes E,F,G#,A,B,C,D#, E. It kind of exploits this kind of semitone 'trick and is almost bi-tonal in that respect though the leading tone...so semitones between D#,E and F which is interesting.
Anyway, bi-tonal in a way because if you look carefully it is the triad E and F together...so E,G#,B and F,A,C and the seventh note D# as mentioned is the leading tone and makes it sound more E as a result, even if it does seem a little 'odd'...play this scale and you will see how that leading tone effect make this decidedly as E as the tonic.
So, such things can produce great melody or lead sounds over this kind of E-F or bVI-V cadance by exploiting this...trill these pairs of notes really fast...
---------------------------------------------------12tr13------ ---------------------------------9tr10---12tr13------------------ --------------------------9tr10---------------------------- ---------6tr7---9tr10---------------------------------------- ---7tr8--------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------
Any kind of scale with a preponderance of semitones tends to lend a bit of a gipsy, spanish, middle east, exotic to things...in a cheap kind of surf way rather than trying to be authentic. Do it with a more 'pentatonic' appraoch with these thigns and it sounds more 'asian'!
Semitone things are of course used in all kinds of 'surf and spy' things from the james bond them to the twilight zone.
But surf tended to take it's influences from everywhere with country and blues being big influences but where possible, most did use some kind of 'exotica' and for this nothing says that like some of these semitone infused scales and modes.
It was a bit of a different time and sensibility too. You often find jazz influences as in the tune walk don't run'. Dick dale though was a hiuge influence and that tradition stuck, his background I believe was from Lebanese parents, so that influence was coming through. California and Baja too was very close to where this stuff was emerging and you were getting touches of this kind of thing in the movies of the day with spanish westerns and spy stuff standard fare...zorro and all that.
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Personally, while it can be useful, I don't find trying to learn every kind of scale that useful, modes certainly one should get a bit of a handle on, but it is worth seeing how these things 'tick' as much as anything to produce these kinds of sounds and these semitone effects will instantly get you into some more exotic flavours. I'm not really sure that this was done that consciously after all, I suspect that people were not thinking in terms of a particular named scale, but noting that this kind of thing created that kind of sound...well enough without any attempt to be 'authentic' and just ran with it.
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Yes, the "Axis of Awsome"...quite likely the first thing I will be showing and discussing with my new student/guinea pigs come mid june. There are some important questions in this kind of thing.
Like most things in retrospect, there are some 'classic surf' progressions, but there are some people out there still creating surf music that honours the traditions while still moving forward. The slacktone are a fave, but check out this lovely ballard by 'Laika...'
All those gooey maj7 sounds.
Or bands like the mermen...
This is kind of 'tame' for them...but perhaps a lot is in the sounds and attack and attitude as much as anything to sound 'surfy'...
just a few late night thoughts...
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Post by JFrankParnell on Apr 23, 2012 13:09:33 GMT -5
The Specials - Hypocrite
A C#m D Dm
I'm not looking for these, i just have my tunes on random and ... wait! another major-minor!
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Post by 4real on Apr 24, 2012 2:28:43 GMT -5
Yes, again that classic minor iv chord thing...again...
This kind of thing though is found in so many tunes, the Beatles were fond of borrowing from the parallel minor...even 'dear prudence' has melodic touches of the minor (over the D/Bb you will find the note F while it is clearly in Dmajor/mixolyidian and features the F# in the melody)...
Today's amazing use of majors and minors...the song "All I need is the Air that I breathe (to love you) which has both the minor iv thing as well as minor I chord and many other similar major minor effects. I was sent a transcription/arrangement by solo guitarist and great arranger Shaun Murray from the UK, not on the YT yet.
It's all a lovely effect...
I am seeing them everywhere, but I am guessing that I am attracted to those kinds of tunes
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Edit/addition
Playing through the 'air that I breathe' arrangement some more and with this in mind...this is an absolute tour-de-force of this kind of thing...so a few 'notes' on the kind of major minor shifting going on.
This arrangement is in D major. The intro is a kind of 'ambiguous' D mixolydian (lots of C's in that trill), but hints at the Amino that will appear later (guitar solo).
The melody starts in D and dmaj 7 sounds before 'oddly' going to F#7. As in the disucssion above regarding the minor tunes with a dom7V chord, this is the V of the relative minor Bm. The A# in it is the smae as the Bb of the minor iv chord and has something of that sound and effect. It then moves to G and then to the Gmin which would be our 'reflective/mush' miniV chord of this thread. Before returning to Dmajor and then repeating as a verse.
Twice through this it goes into a section that begins with F#min...in Bm this would be the unaltered minor Vth of a mode but in this contest a little odd and again has some of that minor effect, especially as it moves up a step into that Gmin iv thing immediately. Back to the D major and then repeated as in the verse...it sounds even more 'pleading' and dramatic for this...
The it's released with the anthem chorus of I-V-I (D-A-D) in D major after an added delaying bar on the words 'some times'...so strongly in D and none of these minor things....till...it repeats three times (which is a little unusual) then the V7 moves into Am...so the minor V. Am-G-D-A. And repeat again changing from A to Am.
Another verse and chorus till the end.
So...a heap of min iv things and some unusual approaches to it with that F#7 chord that shares the Bb note that is what creates this effect we have noted in this thread. A very clever tune me thinks and shows once you mix your majors and minors, there is still more things like the domV of the relative minor that can have a similar effect and the minor V in a home key which takes things to another place for the solo.
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Another tune that comes to mind for this effect, while I think of it is the fabulous "what's going on" by Marvin Gaye. I lay it in E (I believe this is the key anyway) and it is very much in that mode with some 'smooth' major7 and 11th chords thrown in. But, where it goes into the 'solo' wrap sections and seems to 'shift gears' it moves into Am(9) which of course is our friendly minor iv effect...kind of bitter sweet and reflective and again a great song.
It is hard to find songs like this that don't have them...
As an experiement, consider if writing a song subing the minor for the majIV chord. Take taht 'axis of awsome' 4-chord-song thing... I-V-vi-IV play I-V-vi-iv or in C...C-G-Am-Fm ... Very nice. In fact better if you make the Fm and Fm6 as is done in the 'air that I breathe' on teh iv chord...so for an Fm6 try this in open position 1-X-0-1-1-1 ...interesting ...someone call a lyricist!
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Post by 4real on Jun 3, 2012 18:55:11 GMT -5
I got 3 more books by Rikky Rooksby recently, he's a great writer and has lots on this mIV chord effect (he calls the 'slush-maker') with it's tragic melancholy bitter-sweet effect. He also bundles this kind of thing into a term of his own it seems called 'reverse polarity chords' which is really useful idea not just for this. By this he means changing the chords that are normally maj to minor or in this case the reverse, the major IV chord to minor. Specifically the II, III and VI chord in a major key from minor to major.
Anyway, he lists a few songs where this is prominent in addition ot some we have noted...
Beatles do you want to know a secret (v) in my life (v) i'll follow the sun (v) that means a lot (v) hold me tight (v) all i've got to do (v) i call your name (v) she loves you (ch) bungalow bill (ch and v) nowhere man (bridge) and I love you (end) band on the run (intro, word 'mama')
others include I believe i can fly (kelly) the crystal lake (granddaddys) riot act (elvis costello) female of the species (space) world without love (peter and gordon - bridge) the killing moon (bunnymen) air that I breath (hollies) idiot wind (dylan) living thing (ELO, v) since i don't have you heaven knows (plant) Satin chic (goldfrapp) All you want (dido) hate (muse)
There are millions of them of course, and there are a heap of similar effects on other chords in reversing the expected minor chords to major or the opposite that create particular effects and functions.
These books, perhaps of most use to guitar players is 'how to write songs on guitar' (rooksby) are excellent reading and perhaps a more useful way to understand songs and a bit of theory from a songwriting perspective where you can hear the results in written sequences and listed songs that have these kinds of effects.
A large part of the greatness of the Beatles songs are that they liberally used such effects mixing major and minor tonalities.
A really useful thing is a chart of chords within a key and such added chords that are often used. In major, C for instance, the 'diatonic' chords are 6, the 7th chord being Bhalf dim is rarely used...so
C-Dm-Em-F-G-Am but commonly found are the bVII, bVI, bIII, and these reverse polarity chords IImaj, IImaj and the IVmin. So, in C...Bb,Ab,Eb and D, E and Fm in the key of C. Examples are given of a heap of songs that contain these effects and example to play where you can redily hear the effects of such harmony. ALl this without going into the whole 'altered chords' and such. He also looks at 'genres' noting that the 'hard rock formula' and more 'garage band' styles like punk and the white stripes, etc use a lot of the flattened chords (bVII, bIII and bVI) so Bb, Eb and Ab in teh key of C). Too many tuens to mention.
There are of course similar effects in minor keys, you could do it with the same chords with the relative minor, so the chords above in C will work in Am along with these other options and effects.
Some things I think benefit from an understanding through modes that he is light on, but it is still an interesting approach, easy to understand and very useful.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Sept 5, 2012 0:26:38 GMT -5
The Bottle Rockets - Last Time. From the album Blue Sky. Its a slow, sad song, perfect for the ol' major minor thing. I find neither clips nor tabs of the song, so, I guess you'll have to take my word for it. Here's some other Bottle Rockets, though: www.bottlerocketsmusic.com/video/
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Post by 4real on Sept 9, 2012 23:32:37 GMT -5
A cool one to look at is the song "everybodies gottta learn sometime" by the korgis and redone (not as well) by Beck for the movie "eternal sunshine of the spotless mind"...
In the verses the underlying simple harmony is Em-A-Am but incorporates the changing modalities into the bass line...so E, D, C#, C.
It has some otehr interesting related 'tricks' which can be exploited in a minor key. The V chord can be minor or harmonically altered to include the leading tone to a major chord. Other realted ideas in minor keys can exploit the qualiteis of the modes that can also 'shift or borrow'.
So, in this song the verse culminates to the line "I need your loving...like the sunshine" this last phrase is on a B7 chord (not minor) which gives a 'lift' settling down through another implied minIV move (A7-D7...ie C#,C notes) to the chorus on the 'minor V' chord' which eventually ends on a kind of inturlude in G, the relative major of the Em key.
Again, mixing the modes a little and making use of these maj-min shifts can make a powerful effect on the intended content of such songs and that as well as it being possible to make some of these minor moves seems 'sad and poinant' the opposite effect can be also possible...a gentle 'lift' can be built in that will bring this kind of lyric to the fore.
Minor keys especially are maliable in this way becuase there are so many accepted minor modalities and treatments that can be used and mixed with some skill...
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Post by JFrankParnell on Sept 20, 2012 12:07:35 GMT -5
Did someone mention this?
Nobody Does It Better - Carly Simon Written by Marvin Hamlisch and Carole Bayer Sager
Not a big Radiohead fan, but this is pretty cool, nice distortion:
A Am E And nobody does it better A Am E Though sometimes I wish someone could A Am Ab C#m F#m Nobody does it quite the way you do B E Why d'you have to be so good?
E Ab A Am The way that you hold me, whenever you hold me E Ab A Am There's some kind of magic inside you E Ab That keeps me from running A A But just keep it coming F#m B E How d'you learn to do the things you do?
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Post by newey on Sept 20, 2012 16:16:44 GMT -5
For those who may be unaware, the Carly Simon version of "Nobody Does It Better" was cut as the theme song for the James Bond movie "The Spy Who Loved Me". The movie featured the best Bond girl of all (IMHO), Barbara Bach.
Barbara Bach has the added distinctions of being both Ringo's wife and Joe Walsh's sister-in-law.
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