Half out of phase

[roadtonever]

This is makes most sense in a two pickup config with a 3-way toggle and the addition of a DPDT switch.



It gives a snappy yet full bodied sound compared to a weak regular out of phase setting or an airy middle parallel setting. I love it in my Pauloid.

It's essentially like regular out-of-phase except it adds a .01uf capacitor in series with the neck pickup. Cap value can be adjusted to taste.

[bassxtreme]

great tip. I used a .022uf metal film on a bass humbucker phase switch.

[Yew]

You could also use a Low Value Inductor to acheive a similar effect but with more treble (maybe a tiny bit less bass, but if you got a low enough H value it shouldnt be noticable)

[bassxtreme]

Oct 20, 2010 6:25:34 GMT -5 Yew said:

You could also use a Low Value Inductor to acheive a similar effect but with more treble (maybe a tiny bit less bass, but if you got a low enough H value it shouldnt be noticable)

interesting.. what would would happened if I connected both the capacitor and inductor in parallel or series? would they cancel each other out?

[ashcatlt]

I wonder about the inductor here. It's going to act as a low-pass filter. The high frequencies which do not pass that will come through like a single pickup by itself, leaving the lower frequencies to sound the same they would without the inductor in an OoP situation.

If the inductor is big enough to avoid losing bass, it's because it's big enough that it passes none of the one pickup, and you might as well just use your pickup switch. If you're not careful, it'll leave the only the fundamental of the 50/60Hz noise which will not be cancelling if the in-phase pickup combination does. So, you've got all the unwanted signal of two pickups, but the wanted signal of only one.

If the inductor is smaller, it increases the cutoff of the LPF, and doesn't help the bass response one bit.

Or am I missing something? Well, there's the frequency dependent phase delay inherent in the filter itself. This happens whether we're using a cap or inductor, and makes things difficult (for me) to predict in the "slope" area of the filter.

[4real]

I played around with this idea a bit today in my HSS strat...

I have it in a push pull on the master tone control and it reverses the phase on the neck pickup...



I tried a few caps but indeed found the .01uF to get the best results...but different tastes and pickups might be worth playing around with.

It does change some interactions in surprising ways...in some combinations the effect is subtle, perhaps more apparent in notes above the 12th fret or on the open bass string frequencies...while in series mode it can be a really dramatic but useful sound...

The interesting thing is an EASTER EGG in this...not only does it tame down the thin and weak sound but still fairly funky...but it also changes the sound of the pickup itself alone while switched. On my neck pickup it turns the warm sound to a brighter airier sound...so not just a 'phase switch' but also changes the character of the pickup itself BONUS!

This mod is well worth trying especially if you usually find a full phase a little extreme...

[roadtonever]

It works on bass as well!: soundcloud.com/roadtonever/spacethump
I use a .033uf cap for bass.

[asmith]

What about a variable Half Out of Phase:



Not sure what would be the most useful expansion to do with that unsoldered lug, but keeping in mind that the wiper of the potentiometer is permanently connected to the hot ouput of this module I'm sure something could be found.

[thetragichero]

so with the switch down, the pot does nothing?

[ashcatlt]

Well, it provides a path for the cap to discharge and probably avoid popping when the switch is flipped.

[asmith]

If you add a cap between that previously unsoldered lug and the Pickup Ground lug, like so:



It's a standard Tone Control when switched down, and then a Variable-Half Out Of Phase switch (VHOOP) when up.

In VHOOP mode, the sweep of the control would obviously be different (I'm not sure how - a graph from 5spice would help) than a 'standard sweep.' Also, two or more caps in parallel means more capacitance. So the amount of total capacitance at the extreme end of the control in VHOOP mode would be larger than the capacitance active in the circuit in Tone Control mode.

EDIT: I've modelled the circuit in 5spice but can't seem to produce a graph. Here's a download of the 5spice schematic.

[ChristoMephisto]

Really like that VHOOP concept, definitely going to add that to my tele next time i get the modding itch

If you take out the OoP concept to it, it could be a variable band pass
the low cut cap would have to be smaller like 5-3nf

[thetragichero]

Jun 23, 2011 14:25:38 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

Well, it provides a path for the cap to discharge and probably avoid popping when the switch is flipped.

maaaaan, i ain't no professional... what's a little popping between friends?

Jun 23, 2011 17:07:10 GMT -5 asmith said:

If you add a cap between that previously unsoldered lug and the Pickup Ground lug, like so:



It's a standard Tone Control when switched down, and then a Variable-Half Out Of Phase switch (VHOOP) when up.

In VHOOP mode, the sweep of the control would obviously be different (I'm not sure how - a graph from 5spice would help) than a 'standard sweep.' Also, two or more caps in parallel means more capacitance. So the amount of total capacitance at the extreme end of the control in VHOOP mode would be larger than the capacitance active in the circuit in Tone Control mode.

EDIT: I've modelled the circuit in 5spice but can't seem to produce a graph. Here's a download of the 5spice schematic.

now that's more my style!

[asmith]

I'd best update this. That previous image I posted looks alright at first glance, but in practice doesn't work so well.

Presuming your "tone cap" is 15nF or more, when put in parallel with your other cap it's "15nF + "Other Cap Value." For a half-out-of-phase mod, you'd probably want a cap smaller than that - 6nF perhaps - to really affect the tone. With that scheme you wouldn't be able to achieve a total capacitance value that small.

A quick* redesign later:



I've used an inductor in that diagram, as I was swapping between a mid-cut tone control for pickups In Phase, and a mid-pass control for pickups Out of Phase. I tested in 5Spice with 2x 6nF caps and a 2H inductor.

To redesign an electrically sound model for high cut in phase / low cut out of phase is a nasty challenge.

*Whose leg am I pulling?

[ChristoMephisto]

Really like the idea of the smaller value cap for OoP, so worked out a switching diagram that think may work, but wanted to check with the gurus first.

In the down position, it operates as a normal tone pot with the pickup in phase. Tone cap value at C1 is 22n.
Pull up the knob and the pickup is out of phase, with a low cut.
The tone pot now works with the C2 of 6n8 or to taste. If you use a standard audio pot for tone, it's now reverse.
Now having it at 10 is like the pot rolled all the way back. Roll the tone pot back to 9-8 and find the sweet spot.

[reTrEaD]

That's an unusual arrangement. It will do something, but I don't know if it's something good or something bad. The cap that shunts the coil when in OoP will be kind of hard to control, since the tone control will be backward. Small changes in knob position between 8~10 make big changes in resistance.

The shunting will affect the tone of the pickup connected to the OoP switch more than the other pickup. But it will affect the other one to some degree. Dunno if it will be wonderful, useful, or just something different. OoP is usually better when the pickups are in series.

[ChristoMephisto]

Unusual but simple. Agreed the taper is hard to control being reversed. When it was at 10 and OoP, the C2 cap was out of the mix, could only be heard at 9 on the knob. A linear pot would work better, except I've never been fond of linear tone pots.
Lifted the C2 cap and found it's a good way to get the OoP without tone. Very bright with the low cut ;D
The regular tone cap is shunted and has no effect on the tone when in series from the neck pup.

[reTrEaD]

I kinda like the idea of disabling or swapping tone controls when a switch (OoP or Series/Parallel) is toggled. After reading this I came up with a scheme to select different tone controls when a S/P switch is toggled.

[ChristoMephisto]

Jun 12, 2012 10:36:19 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

I kinda like the idea of disabling or swapping tone controls when a switch (OoP or Series/Parallel) is toggled. After reading this I came up with a scheme to select different tone controls when a S/P switch is toggled.

Tried doing that, couldn't figure out any combinations with the caps
I have series on my strat style 5-way and tried to work it in the OoP switch

[dannyhill]

Hi guys,

Is it possible to take this circuit:
sites.google.com/site/phostenixwiringdiagrams/modified-tbx-tone-control#tbxmodwiring

And use it for variable bass cut and treble cut prior a pickup for variable bass cut (strangle) and treble cut that when combined with the pickup being reversed would provide various phase options, including HOOP?
Or am I off into the realms of fantasy?
Cheers,

Daniel

[newey]

Danny-

I edited your post to make the link appear, but you must have been typing quickly as it doesn't read right, and I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

Dual-gang pots like a TBX pot aren't available with a P/P pot, so at minimum, you'd be talking about an external switch in addition to the pot.

[dannyhill]

Hi Newey,

Just had a re-thought. Might be easier (?) to do this say 2 options placing a cap between ground and -ve side of pup, 2 options placing a cap in series with the +ve output of the same pup. A 5th option would place a cap in neither place, i.e. neither a treble cut nor a bass cut.

Anyone ever done this?
Guess I would need a 2P5T rotary?
Something like this?


The 'pup' should read p/p.
Cheers,

D

[dannyhill]

How does it work if I apply a capacitor to ground before the pups for treble cut and then one after to hot for bass cut. Does it cut out bass and treble leaving just mids? This would be something like a varitone, but with that you need an inductor, right? Why is that?

D

[JohnH]

Feb 6, 2013 9:00:52 GMT -5 dannyhill said:

Hi Newey,

Just had a re-thought. Might be easier (?) to do this say 2 options placing a cap between ground and -ve side of pup, 2 options placing a cap in series with the +ve output of the same pup. A 5th option would place a cap in neither place, i.e. neither a treble cut nor a bass cut.

Anyone ever done this?
Guess I would need a 2P5T rotary?
Something like this?


The 'pup' should read p/p.
Cheers,

D

Hi danny.
Putting a cap in series on the hot side is identical to putting it on the ground side.

Also, a 6 position 2 pole switch is more common, so you may as well have one more option. And the connections 1-5 or 1-6 must both be clockwise or anticlockwise

I think the idea with hoop snd the modified tbx might do something interesting

[dannyhill]

Hi John,

Actually, I got Varitones mixed up with decade switches.
The Varitone cuts mids, hence the need for an inductor.
The decade switch I'm proposing, its a little different.
What I'm trying to do is apply a bass cut turning it one way (from the mid point of its rotation) and a treble cut the other way, hence an odd number of throws - strangely after 5 there a very few I could find, even numbers yes.

I don't understand your point re-treble cut. Surely, a cap to ground before a pickup will roll off the treble? Or does it need to come after the pickup?
I'm probably mixing two things up here. But I have this in 3 guitars:


BTW The neck pup -ve end is connected to the ground lug of the switch. And it looked like if I made the two caps switchable so I can have two values and just wire for each cap) in position 4 I could treble cut, reverse the pickup and hey presto...HOOP.

Now, you are going to tell me it aint so?
Maybe I will have to add cap to ground at the hot end of a pup I 'reverse phase' on (does it matter if I reverse the neck of the bridge here?)?
Cheers,

Danny

[ashcatlt]

A high cut cap will be parallel to the pickup its meant to affect, and will be connected to both ends of the pickup.

A bass cut cap will be in series with the pickup. It will be connected to only one end of the pickup, and it doesn't really matter which end.

In your drawing any cap in circuit is in series with the pickup, and will act as bass cut. To get what you want I think you need to have the wire going from the left of the toggle to the rotary actually go from the right of the toggle (along with the wire that's already there, or just jumper from that rotary's left common to the right hand lug 3), ground the left hand toggle lug, and remove the jumpers on that left side of the rotary.

As JohnH said, though, the throws should be numbered the same for both poles. As you go around clockwise it will be either 5432154321 or 1234512345.

Most of the time rotary switches are limited to a total of 12 throws per deck. A single-decker can be 1P12T, 2P6T, 3P4T... But you aren't likely to find a 2P7T without adding a second deck, which will make it both deeper and wider.

[dannyhill]

Hi Ashcatlt,

Many thanks for that.
If I look at my 5 way wiring diagram it would seem therefore that in position 4 I get:
.01uF in parallel to the bridge and .0047uF in series with it
.0032 in parallel to the neck (.01uf and .0047uf caps in series, 1/x)

Wait up! Is it a bass cut and not a treble cut I need here along with a reverse phase pup in parallel with another to get HOOP?
If so I can make these both switchable and then in position 4 just swap the .0047uF for a wire and then reverse the bridge pup to get HOOP?

[dannyhill]

Hi Asthtcalt,

So there is no difference in sound for two pickups in series if a cap is placed between them after the second or before the first (to ground)?

D

[ashcatlt]

I think the answer to all of those questions is yes.

[dannyhill]

Hi AshCatlt,

Q: I guess people always recommend putting the tamer cap between pickups as its easier to add it to the hot side of a pickup when you switch to a series configuration of pups?

Q:So if I have an EXTRA switch to add different caps or just a wire, I can put that before the first pickup for series taming/strangle(of that pickup)/HOOP(if that pickup direction is reversed).
Then I could add ANOTHER switch for strangle of the other pickup/extra series taming?

Q: For treble cut, is there any difference between putting a cap across the ground and hot connections of a volume cap or just using the tone control with its cap?

@ JohnH: The hoop and the modified tbx. What do you have in mind? The TBX only allows for treble cut or bass cut, not both. I think I'm confused about adding caps before and after the pots.

Modified: One more q: In the HOOP is the tone any different if I reverse one and add cap, or the other?

Too early for so many questions?

D