|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 15, 2011 22:00:33 GMT -5
Greetings - I was looking over this today and found I had drawn the 5 way upside down. That was an easy fix, but I admit, after 2-1/2 years of not seeing this drawing it lost me a few times. I'm getting ready to start soldering this up and would appreciate an extra pair of eyes to scan this for problems before I commit solder to wire. This stems from an old post, H-S-S, 2 Vol, 2 Tone...& Switches..., which hearkens back to a time when ChrisK roamed the forum free to poke newbies with a pointed stick to get them to learn...I still have the marks to prove it... Again, this design was influenced stolen, for the most part, from JohnH in his Strat with two volume controls design, original and Plus variety... ChrisK helped me work out and fix the humbucker switching. To review, here's the pickups and their respective wiring colors and polarity. | SCREW | POLE | COIL (S) | SLUG | COIL | POLE(N) | Winding/Polarity | Start | Finish | Polarity | Start | Finish | Polarity | Seymour Duncan SSL-1 | N/A | [N/A | N/A | White | Black - | North | Rio Grande Halfbreed RW/RP | N/A | [N/A | N/A | Gray | Black - | South | DiMarzio DP197 Virtual PAF (Bridge) | Green - | White + | South | Red + | Black - | North |
And here's the latest diagram: The 5 way switch is your garden variety switch which selects, from up to down: N, N+M, M, M+B, B. For the Neck and Middle pickup you have the option of series or parallel from a DPDT switch The Bridge is a bit more involved, but not to bad going by current Nutz standards. The DPDT switch allows series and parallel in humbucker mode. The SP3T switch allows switching between Single coil (N), Humbucker and Single Coil (S). NOTE: This only functions in SERIES modes from the DPDT switch.The volume controls have the old values for the treble bleed...just because that's what I've got on hand and can live with it. Both Tone Controls have the Free Woman Tone modification to allow 3 different cap values from a SP3T switch. The neck and middle have the standard values, but I went to higher values to darken up the bridge. There is also a "Bridge On" switch wired in to allow a N+B and N+M+B combinations. That's the Cliff Notes. Anyone see anything glaring and stupid please feel free to shout it out. Again, thanks to JohnH and ChrisK for their inspiration and hand holding during the initial phase of this, and taking the time to teach me how to work this out. I just wish that particular lesson had stuck a little better.... Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Oct 16, 2011 2:46:28 GMT -5
I don't know about anyone else, but for me the "latest diagram" doesn't load.....
|
|
|
Post by asmith on Oct 16, 2011 5:26:45 GMT -5
It loads for me.
As you're basing this off the Strat with two controls scheme, I presume that when you mark the uppermost S/P switch as "Neck & Middle Series / Parallel," you know it's going to put the "(Neck and Middle)" pickups in series with the "(Bridge)" pickups, and not the Neck pickup in series with the Middle pickup.
If that's what you're aiming for, this looks fine and dandy to me.
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 16, 2011 10:31:13 GMT -5
Here's the direct URL for the image: img197.imageshack.us/img197/386/gtx33working.jpgNo, that wasn't what I was aiming for. As the split for the humbucker relies on said humbucker being in series I would be running the middle or neck in series as well as a rule. I generally never run a neck pickup in parallel anyway. I have found running all three in parallel a handy tone. I was curious how the neck and middle in parallel would sound. If I understand you correctly this is not going to happen in this scheme with this switch the way it's currently wired. I'll stare at this some more, but any suggestions would be welcomed. Remember, I'm just another wood butcher around here... Thanks. Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Oct 16, 2011 18:15:41 GMT -5
c1,
It's not the link that's at fault, it's the image itself. The browser claims to be receiving the link's contents (and the logfile confirms it), but then all it renders is a placeholder - no viable material at all. Nor does the image/file show up in the Temp Internet Files directory, meaning that the browser didn't see fit to store it for future use.
Which leads me to wonder if the JPG file itself is somehow gunnysack......
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 16, 2011 20:47:50 GMT -5
Which leads me to wonder if the JPG file itself is somehow gunnysack...... Actually, I exported the image out of Illustrator and re-sized it...without converting it from a CYMK to an RGB profile...so that's why it's probably failing on you. I fixed it and posted the fixed version below: Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by JFrankParnell on Oct 16, 2011 21:53:48 GMT -5
some of my illustrator exports to cmyk .jpgs were invisible to JohnH, I think it was. Exporting to RGB fixed it.
C1, a suggestion: re-do your diagram so that it looks like the underside of a pick gaurd, i.e. place the items in your drawering as they will be when you start soldering.
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 16, 2011 22:24:18 GMT -5
Can anyone see the fixed drawing?
And this should be the view from the underside of the cavity. It's a rear route guitar body with plenty of room in the cavity to spread everything out. I just screwed up on the original drawing and laid out the 5-way switch backwards. Schematic Dislexia.
I have drilled all the holes and sprayed the body, so I can't easily move anything at this point. Nothing has been soldered yet. I just have it laid out on the cardboard template I used to drill the holes. I normally solder most of the connections before I put the pots and switches in the guitar. Makes my life easier by minimizing the amount of work I have to do in the cavity itself.
HTC1
|
|
|
Post by newey on Oct 16, 2011 23:02:24 GMT -5
Cyn- I haven't had time to fully vet the diagram, was out of town for the weekend. But I certainly do see it, in both iterations. What I do see, the "Neck and Middle Series/parallel" puts the bridge HB in series with N, or M, or (N+M) whichever is selected on the 5-way switch. It seems to function as it should. Not sure about the 5-way switch wiring, there's certainly some funkiness there, but I'm halfway convinced it will work as intended.
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 16, 2011 23:20:54 GMT -5
Not sure about the 5-way switch wiring, there's certainly some funkiness there, but I'm halfway convinced it will work as intended. I'm really waiting for JohnH to drop in. This is his creation and I really want to make sure I didn't screw it up in the translation...probably should have used and Australian mirror... HTC1
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Oct 17, 2011 2:24:31 GMT -5
c1, Thanks, got it that time! ;D Looking it over now....... Oh wait.... you want a Professional Opinion? OK, I'm cool with that, I'll just sit over here and wait for John, too. sumgai
|
|
|
Post by asmith on Oct 17, 2011 3:18:15 GMT -5
Here's an enthusiastic amateur's tuppence-worth. Cyn, Ignoring Bridge Series/Split/Parallel, if you're going for this: Pos. | N&M Parallel | N&M Series | 1 | N | N*B | 2 | N+M | (N+M)*B | 3 | M | M*B | 4 | B+M | M*B | 5 | B | M*B |
You're bang on target. But if you're not going for that, what are you aiming for?
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Oct 17, 2011 4:17:26 GMT -5
Hello! and yes, i cant see any problems with it. Before battening it down however, Id suggest a phase check because it would be very forgivable but annoying if those pickups from different makers end up Oop in certain combos. If so, pickup wire swapping would fix it
cheers
John
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 17, 2011 7:06:30 GMT -5
Oh wait.... you want a Professional Opinion? OK, I'm cool with that, I'll just sit over here and wait for John, too. Now, don't go getting all judgemental...
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 17, 2011 13:18:15 GMT -5
Here's an enthusiastic amateur's tuppence-worth. Cyn, Ignoring Bridge Series/Split/Parallel, if you're going for this: Pos. | N&M Parallel | N&M Series | 1 | N | N*B | 2 | N+M | (N+M)*B | 3 | M | M*B | 4 | B+M | M*B | 5 | B | M*B |
You're bang on target. But if you're not going for that, what are you aiming for? Well, I'm not going for the bridge to be on in all 5 series positions. OK, I'm at work, so time is short, but if there's a different switch, or wiring configuration to take the bridge out of positions 1 - 3 in series please feel free to pass it along. I could just pull the switch...but there's a nice gaping hole where it would have gone if I did...and I'm not inclined to strip, fill and repaint this late in the year... All opinions welcome...I'm just sayin' Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Oct 17, 2011 13:19:58 GMT -5
Oh wait.... you want a Professional Opinion? OK, I'm cool with that, I'll just sit over here and wait for John, too.
Now, don't go getting all judgemental... I believe the correct term here would be ossified. My opinion? That's a fair piece of work for only 8 tones. Of course, that's with the Vol pots at maximum - fading either pot will give you some spice, to be sure. Also, selecting the North/South coil of the Hb is an 'iffy' proposition - you may find that one of those will hum in conjunction with either/both of the SC pups. Testing before you install everything into the body should reveal any problems of this nature. HTH sumgai
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Oct 17, 2011 14:35:07 GMT -5
Here's an enthusiastic amateur's tuppence-worth. Cyn, Ignoring Bridge Series/Split/Parallel, if you're going for this: Pos. | N&M Parallel | N&M Series | 1 | N | N*B | 2 | N+M | (N+M)*B | 3 | M | M*B | 4 | B+M | M*B | 5 | B | M*B |
You're bang on target. But if you're not going for that, what are you aiming for? Well, I'm not going for the bridge to be on in all 5 series positions. OK, I'm at work, so time is short, but if there's a different switch, or wiring configuration to take the bridge out of positions 1 - 3 in series please feel free to pass it along. I could just pull the switch...but there's a nice gaping hole where it would have gone if I did...and I'm not inclined to strip, fill and repaint this late in the year... All opinions welcome...I'm just sayin' Happy Trails Cynical One The truth table that asmith posted there is the same as on my original design (except I had a phase switch too). The series/parallel switch works by putting the bridge in series with whatever of N and M is selected, so inherently the B pickup is in all the series combos. Are you looking for a different arrangement? if so, 'nuther idea: How about set up the N and M with a simple three position toggle, and the pots, tone options that you have, to make a simple two pickup 'sub-guitar'. Similarly wire up the B pickup with volume and tone pots and switches as you have them, to make a one pickup 'sub-guitar'. Then combine them with a three way tele switch and a series/parallel switch, or a four-way tele switch, to give you NM, NM+B, NMxB and B, where NM is whatever of N, N+M and M you choose. cheers John
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 17, 2011 15:34:13 GMT -5
I must have missed the "bridge on in series" part of the table. That's depressing. OK, from what I see coming back what I have drawn is not going to do what I thought it was going to do. This is even more distressing as the body has been drilled and painted. It's too late to redo it now. Winter will be here in a couple weeks and this weekend is the last time I'll be able to shoot the final clear on the body. If I don't shoot the clear next weekend this guitar will sit all winter. I lost all of last year in a similar climate related delay and have no desire to repeat that again. Guess it's time to look at my parts, the holes drilled and figure out what to salvage from it. I still want the neck and middle on the same volume pot, with the bridge off on its own. I can live without the neck being in parallel...I never liked that tone much anyway. I have found tossing the middle into parallel a handy feature on Project #1, but that a mini humbucker and I can't do this with one single coil in this guitar... The biggest deal breaker for me is having the bridge on in every series position for the neck and middle pickups. Granted I could just crank the volume down on the bridge pickup, but that sort of makes the bridge on SPST switch null and void and leaves me with another empty hole to fill. It looks like the neck and middle series parallel option is a wash out. Now I just need to figure out what I can do with an extra DPDT switch and one hole... I've got two five way switches in the box and no other parts to order, so picking up a three way switch is probably not in the cards. any free coin I stumble upon has to go for the bridge... So, the N-HUM-S split idea is a wash too, huh... I really had high hopes for that one. That's a real pisser... Guess I need to crawl off and ponder my options a bit on all of this. Crap... EDIT: OK, home from work and preparing to clean and feed the herd...but I think where I missed the boat two and a half years ago was in having no clue as to what I was looking at versus what I wanted to do with this guitar. Not that I'm any Mensa candidate now...but the intent was for the bridge to be a separate module and the neck and middle to be a separate module...hence the bridge on switch. I found this drawing on a fast search, and wonder if this is worth the brain cells necessary for me to decipher it: Granted, it's for two P-90 and uses a different switch, but it was as close as I could find to my intent on a 15 minute search... As I understand it, the series/parallel option only works when both the neck and middle pickups are selected, and I'm cool with that. Part of the intent was to set this up as a homogenization of a 3 single coil and a two humbucker guitar with a series and parallel option working between both modules. While it may look involved, that was really my only plan for this guitar I seem to have really missed my train here and apologize for wasting everyone's time trying to prove my theory when I had the map upside down all the time. If you happen to hear the distant sound of thunder it's probably just ChrisK slapping his hand against his forehead in disgust...again... I'm gonna tread real softly out there tonight and keep an eye peeled for lightening bolts... Happy Trails Cynical One EDIT TWO: Would this work as a module for the neck and middle single coils running both of the HOT+ leads to the 5 way switch? This is about the closest I could find with the parts I have available. Most of what I did find about S/P for single coils was for Telecasters...and most of that involved making the switching changes from the 4 way switch. If this works I'll still need to work the bridge humbucker back in, but it's a start. Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Oct 18, 2011 5:22:43 GMT -5
Id say both of those diagrams do what they say. Are you looking to have N and M in series? That seems like the main one that the current diagram misses out on.
If you are committed to holes already drilled, what style of switches are drilled for? the first diagram above can be done with two mini toggles instead, being an on-on-on dpdt and a simple dpdt. The first could give N, N+M, M and the second overides it to give NxM.
If you find on the bridge that the coil select of north and south is too similar, you could have alternatively, one option where one coil is bypassed not by a wire but by a cap - which keeps more bass from the bypassed coil. I prefer it to full coil-cutting bypass on the bridge pickup of my LP. That with full series and full coil-cut are three different sounds that could be on one switch
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 18, 2011 7:18:27 GMT -5
Id say both of those diagrams do what they say. Are you looking to have N and M in series? That seems like the main one that the current diagram misses out on. I see that know. I wish I knew then what I know now. I think I got a little over ambitious drawing this up originally. There is the slot and mounting holes for the 5-way, 4 large holes for the volume and tone pots and 6 smaller holes for the various toggles. The inventory consists of two log pots and two linear pots, one Fender style 5-way switch, two DPDT toggles, three SPDT on-off-on toggles and one SPST on-off switch. I'm married to the 5-way slot...and pretty much all of the other holes as well... The weather here is turning for the worse, and this coming Sunday will likely be the last day above 55 degrees F for the next 7 months. And I wasn't particularly interested in the OOP wiring in the first drawing, merely the S/P wiring side of it. The second drawing seemed pretty straightforward. Oddly, I found very little out there on switching two single coil pickups from series to parallel with a simple toggle or push\pull. There were quite a few tricks and stunts using the 4 way switch, which is academic for me at this time. That sounds interesting. Let me try and lay out what I should have laid out when I initially brought this drawing to the light of day. The basic premise of what I was after was to have all of the standard 3 single coil guitar combinations, with the benefit of N & B in a hum cancelling configuration, coupled with the option to run it as a two humbucker guitar by the use of the bridge on switch. The only real tweak was the ability to perform all of these tasks in series and or parallel if the mood struck...oh yeah, the two volume and tone pots...almost forgot about them... And as SG pointed out, the option to manipulate the two volume controls opens up another whole spectrum of options. Honestly, that's how a lot of bass players get their tonal changes by playing with the volume pots rather then blending pots or switching. This probably explains the lack of phasing or clever little on-board modules or other devices (odd, because you could park a Cadillac in this control cavity) because most of the tweaking I'll be trying will be with the two volume and tone controls. Old habits and such... I hope this makes some more sense. I probably should have made this clearer in the beginning...might have saved Chris a few of his last hair follicles... If I still haven't stated my intentions clearly please feel free to poke me with a stick. History has proven this technique effective. Happy Trails Scott
|
|
|
Post by newey on Oct 18, 2011 7:34:55 GMT -5
My uncle, long since departed, was from Wauwatosa WI. Whenever life got him down or problems arose, his favorite saying was: "Well, it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick . . ." Whatever the situation was, he was generally right, it was better than that .
|
|
|
Post by newey on Oct 18, 2011 21:50:58 GMT -5
Is there any chance that a 4PDT toggle could be procured? This would replace one of the DPDT toggles, since you say cavity space is not a problem.
Just thinking out loud here, but if the goal is to have regular Strat switching on the 5-way and also some series options, then perhaps a "mode switch" arrangement could work, whereby the mode switch either routs the pups to the 5-way, or routs them to the toggles for series selections. Mode 1, it's like a Strat, mode 2, it's like 2 HBs or whatever.
I think a 4P switch will be needed to make that work, however.
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 18, 2011 23:21:54 GMT -5
So, I spent some time researching and thinking about this guitar...and ASmith was kind enough to rack his brains on a redesign of my crude humbucker switching...and 3 hours of vector based drawing later I have Revision #7: And she's even got a name now. Long story... Unless I missed another boat, this seems to have simplified things a bit. As I see it I can have the elements of a 3 single coil and two humbucker guitar in both series and parallel in one guitar. One thing to note, I flipped ASmith's design to make it more intuitive for my aging increasingly judgmental bass player brain. I triple checked it and am pretty sure I got it right. I do wonder how the volume and tone controls are going to interact as the neck and middle come after the 5-way switch and the bridge comes before it. Any thoughts or insights? I'm going to bed now as I've lost enough sleep on this the past few days. As always, if I screwed the pooch again on this please feel free to point it out. Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by asmith on Oct 19, 2011 4:37:29 GMT -5
What's that barking? I jest. First things first. In the UK we used to have this muppet as Prime Minister. His advisors developed a technique to break news to him called one of these: The breadThe S/P Coil Split transfer looks A-OK. The fillingThe N&M S/P switch will work, but you'll have a dead position at 3 (regular middle only). Also, your N&M Volume is now all sorts of crazy. All is easily fixable. I recommend using the other version of the Series/Parallel with that, so that "1-3" turns into "N*M, N*M, N*M" in a "series" mode. Forgive the MSPaint: Where it says "Out," we'll send that to the other side of the Five-Way Switch to incorporate the Bridge Pickup. I tried to see if there was a way in which you could swap between "N, N*M, M" and "N, N+M, M" from 1-3 on the blade-switch, but I don't think it's possible. The other breadI like your beard. No, seriously, your Bridge pickup, S/P, Coil Split, Tone and Volume controls are absolutely fine and you can forget about whether they're good or not. Looking forward to seeing a redraft. EDITed by sumgai to give more credence to the second assertion with a multi-media presentation. The title of said video's song was Ace's original text.
Sorry, Ace, da Debbil made me do it! ;D
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 19, 2011 7:32:47 GMT -5
What? No mustard?
I wondered about the single coils switching having a dead spot, but it was creeping up on midnight and 4:30 comes awful damn early around these parts... Thanks for catching that.
And "1-3" turns into "N*M, N*M, N*M" in a "series" mode" works for me. The 5-way still determines output so this does what I was looking for it to do.
And that's a pretty easy re-draw. I'll pop the changes up tonight.
Just for reference, would that be a cow chip butty?
Happy Trails
Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by asmith on Oct 19, 2011 7:54:21 GMT -5
Just noticed: the "Out" wire of the volume pot should be connected to the middle lug, not the leftmost. However, the blue wire running from "Common" to the volume pot should be on the left lug, so keep that there. Glad we're heading forwards. It's only a cow chip butty if there's placenty of ketchup.
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 19, 2011 8:47:29 GMT -5
Just noticed: the "Out" wire of the volume pot should be connected to the middle lug, not the leftmost. However, the blue wire running from "Common" to the volume pot should be on the left lug, so keep that there. So, if I understand you correctly, looking at YOUR diagram, the BLUE WIRE you added running from the LEFT LEG of the vol. pot to the LEFT LOWER COMMON on the 5-way should stay as is. The THIN BLUE WIRE from last night's drawing moves on the pot to the CENTER lug of the vol. pot and connects to the RIGHT UPPER COMMON of the 5-way, which also hosts the blue wire out to the jack and the yellow wire from one half on the Bridge On switch...right? Yes, I believe this is moving forward...hope springs eternal... That is not considered ketchup here. We call that benzine in a boutique bottle. Thanks again. Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by asmith on Oct 19, 2011 10:07:03 GMT -5
So, if I understand you correctly, looking at YOUR diagram, the BLUE WIRE you added running from the LEFT LEG of the vol. pot to the LEFT LOWER COMMON on the 5-way should stay as is. The THIN BLUE WIRE from last night's drawing moves on the pot to the CENTER lug of the vol. pot and connects to the RIGHT UPPER COMMON of the 5-way... Correct. Well, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, for want of a less pungent phrase. There's a couple of ways you could do it. One big question that determines how you might proceed after that is: Do you want the option of having the "Bridge on" in series as well as "Bridge on" in parallel?I'm drawing up a "Bridge On in Series / Regular / Bridge On in Parallel" switch using an On-On-On DPDT. Gives you a bit more leeway with the hole you have earmarked for your Bridge On switch. Doesn't work. Well, works, but there's a hang from hot. My brother calls it masochism.
|
|
|
Post by newey on Oct 19, 2011 10:20:41 GMT -5
I call it "good eats". A good Bloody Mary demands about half a bottle . . . Here's my take on this. I think this should work OK. It avoids the messiness of the separate neck/middle V and T controls and when in series mode the 5-way is bypassed and you get N*M regardless. But obviously it needs to be checked . . .
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 19, 2011 11:27:49 GMT -5
One big question that determines how you might proceed after that is: Do you want the option of having the "Bridge on" in series as well as "Bridge on" in parallel?Well, as I see it only one lead runs to the 5-way from the bridge volume pot, so whatever the bridge outputs is determined before the bridge on switch anyway... The only combinations that I'd be concerned about a series and parallel relationship is when all three pickups are active, simulating a 2 humbucker guitar, when the bridge or both single coils are selected, mimicking a single humbucker, or in fact a humbucker in series\parallel with itself...and based on the output from both modules I should get that by default...unless I missed a meeting somewhere... The whole "follow the signal path" thing is clearing up a bit. Please keep in mind that I'm just another wood butcher around here and still no expert on this, so if I ask stupid questions or foster improbable rationalizations I apologize in advance. Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|