eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Mar 11, 2012 4:31:24 GMT -5
I'm just looking for any basic info or links I should check out. I want to get an old parts guitar back to playing.
I'm thinking about a humbucker in the neck with a Tele style single coil in the bridge. Something different.
It probably would have 1 volume & 1 tone but I have room to add 1 more pot for either volume or tone. 3 way LP type switch.
I've got an Ibanez Super 58 (4 wire) for the neck already & one of those pup ring adapters from GFS to use a tele pup in the bridge.
I don't have the bridge pup yet so I need to look around on that too before I buy one.
How would you wire something like this? Something basic is fine but it might be cool to coil tap the HB too.I've got room for probably 2 mini switches. I'll probably use one for a bright switch.
THANKS
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Post by newey on Mar 11, 2012 8:34:18 GMT -5
eadgber-
Welcome back! It's been awhile since we've heard from you!
Lots of possibilities here. By "bright switch", do you mean what we've been calling a "solo switch" or a "blower switch", i.e., one that bypasses all the pots and goes directly to output?
The other switch could do coil cut on the HB, it could do OOP between the pups, it could do series/parallel between the pups or between the HB coils.
If you have not already purchased the mini-toggles, getting some of the "On-On-On" variety will open up your possibilities even further.
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 11, 2012 12:23:18 GMT -5
Are you firm on using a 3way toggle as a pickup selector?
A Gibson toggle or 3-way tele blade will give you a more limited range of possibilities. Using a 5way superswitch or Megaswitch-M would open the door to a ton of new choices.
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Post by newey on Mar 11, 2012 13:51:10 GMT -5
Even if you already have the single round hole for a Gibby 3-way toggle, there are other toggle-type switches available for more functionality, including the 6-way "Free-way" switch. These are available from Stew Mac or Best Guitar Parts.
Lever switches offer more possibilities, but if you don't already have the slot for one cut, it can be tricky to cut one cleanly, particularly if the guitar is a rear-cavity type.
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 11, 2012 16:26:16 GMT -5
the 6-way "Free-way" switch. These are available from Stew Mac or Best Guitar Parts. I've seen the docs on those. They are more functional than a 3way, but they seem very limited in possibilities. Maybe someone will come up with some good shiz using one of these. idk.
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Mar 12, 2012 3:39:07 GMT -5
Thanks Newey, Haven't been modding for awhile. Still amazed by the 21 position mod you guys worked out for me awhile back. I guess all those tones from one gtr have kept me happy for awhile. It's still been in the back of my mind bugging me for along time that out of 6 gtrs, none of them have any real single coils or p90's! I bet a few of you are shaking your heads with disgust right now. I think that's why I want the Tele bridge for this gtr. That & I've always loved the sound of my gts with both pups on, neck full HB, bridge coil tapped. It can have a very acoustic sound. I said bright switch but should've said treble bleed switch. I do have 3 on/on/on mini's , some dpdt's & an on/off/on. reTrEaD Not firm on anything yet except that I'll have the super 58 in the neck. I do have a 2 pole-6 position rotary switch if that could be used. It's a front cavity so I could do a lever switch if I had to but I'd have to start worrying about room then I think. Just started really thinking about what to do with this gtr. I thought along time about just putting P90's in it. I've got this neck super 58 that I hate to see sitting and being wasted though and it's about time I put a single coil in something. It's an Ibanez JetKing I btw so you know what I'm working with. They can be great guitars for a base, especially if they came with Super 58's!
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 12, 2012 8:31:39 GMT -5
The 2 pole rotary you have might be useful with 3 SCs but for this guitar, more poles are needed along with the additional positions. Once you get past the basic parallel arrangement (neck/both/bridge) you would need more than the two poles to get series and/or out of phase. You could wire one pickup so its hot was always tied to the system hot to allow for a 4th position (both in series) but that would still leave 2 positions that wouldn't have a purpose.
Considering that, you'd be just as well off to use the toggle for the main pickup selector. A DPDT on-on could be used with that to get both pickups in series.
Maybe a DPDT on-on-on for series/split/parallel for the HB?
Is this the JTK1 with two rocker switches near the neck pickup?
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Mar 12, 2012 22:34:35 GMT -5
Maybe a DPDT on-on-on for series/split/parallel for the HB? Is this the JTK1 with two rocker switches near the neck pickup? A series/split/parallel switch would probably be enough for me. Would it be hard to add an OOP switch? I'm thinking I might want 2 tone pots too. Yes the first model JTK1. I'm going to use some curly maple to make a new front plate for it, so wasn't planning to use the rocker switches. I did my other JTK1 like that & looks real nice on the butterscotch models. looks almost classy compared to the silver plastic they come with.
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Post by newey on Mar 12, 2012 22:44:17 GMT -5
Piece of cake, assuming you can physically fit the switch in.
The phase switch is a separate module entirely. It is wired first in line after one of the pickups (your choice of which one). Once we get a firm idea of the rest of your wants, it can be simply incorporated into the final scheme.
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 12, 2012 23:09:02 GMT -5
Yes the first model JTK1. I'm going to use some curly maple to make a new front plate for it, so wasn't planning to use the rocker switches. I did my other JTK1 like that & looks real nice on the butterscotch models. looks almost classy compared to the silver plastic they come with. Okay. I was wondering if you might want to find DPDT replacements for those rocker switches and try to keep more of the "retro" vibe, but it sounds like you're moving in a different direction. A series/split/parallel switch would probably be enough for me. Would it be hard to add an OOP switch? Newey covered the ease of accomplishing that. A couple of things should point out... Out of phase sounds a bit better when the two pickups are in series instead of parallel. If you use out of phase with a single and a HB split to one coil, you'll want to have the HB split to the coil of like magnetic polarity. The combination will hum-cancel when out of phase, but not when in phase. Since out of phase is inherently weaker, you'll need the benefit of hum-canceling most, when out of phase. I'm thinking I might want 2 tone pots too. Okay. When you select both pickups, the tone controls will be in parallel with each other. Even if you have one control at 10, the other tone control will act on both pickups. Nature of the beast. But you will have the ability to have one pickup at "full treble" at just the flip of your selector switch. So separate controls might be useful.
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Mar 13, 2012 2:39:40 GMT -5
Ok. If I understand right, an OOP switch would be easy enough but might cause some changes I'm not sure I would like. Are you saying I'd have to use the HB's south coil when coil tapped? Not sure I need it if causes the tone pots not to work in mid position.
I don't know alot about OOP. Is it really all that usefull & worth doing or is it more of a one trick pony type of thing? Only song I can think of is Dire Straits - Money For Nothing w/ is great but it's not like he used it for anymore than maybe one other song (that I can think of right now).
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Mar 13, 2012 3:09:37 GMT -5
Thought I'd show what my other JTK1 looks like. This is the one with the 21 Position mod. Darker in person.The flash lit it too bright. I'm going to make another maple plate like this and try to keep everything down at the bottom.
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Post by newey on Mar 13, 2012 5:08:45 GMT -5
Sweet little bit of guitar porn to make my morning, eadgber! +1!
You're not understanding right. All that RT is saying is that, if you're going to do OOP, having a series option will give you the better OOP sound. And, if you have OOP and series/parallel, then the choice of coil to be split off of the HB is something to consider.
There's no "have to" in any of this. And we don't know if it's the south coil or not, that may vary depending on what pickups you use, especially with different brands involved.
The tone pots are a separate issue having nothing to do with OOP. All RT is saying is that they'll have interaction with both pups selected, not that they won't work.
If you've ever played a stock Strat in the N + M configuration, you've experienced the same thing. And people have lived with this on Strats for over 50 years now, Strats are still quite popular!
As far as OOP being useful, there's plenty of examples around. One of the earliest guitar mods ever is the "Peter Green Mod", in which the middle position on a two-HB guitar is wired permanently OOP. Peter Green used OOP a lot, you can go back and listen to any number of old Fleetwood Mac cuts (pre-1970, anyway).
I have a two HB guitar wired with the Peter Green mod, easiest thing in the world, no extra switches, just flip two pickup wires around. I'm not much of a HB fan, and generally don't use two HBs together anyway, so having them permanently OOP is no issue for me.
There is no one single "OOP sound" as pickup type and positioning make a huge difference in OOP
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 13, 2012 10:46:49 GMT -5
Newey did a pretty good job of explaining things, but I'll try to go a bit deeper. Ok. If I understand right, an OOP switch would be easy enough but might cause some changes I'm not sure I would like. Not exactly. Depending on what OTHER options you have, the OOP switch permit OOP, but not necessarily the best OOP sound. And there are choices you will have to make in the wiring to decide whether hum-canceling between the split HB and bridge single occurs when they are in-phase or out of phase. 1 - Global Series (both pickups in series) Switch. You've chosen to not have one. Without this, you can't get series OOP. Series OOP is preferable, because series causes a stronger, darker tone. OOP causes weak thin tone, with mostly harmonics and very little fundamental. Series takes the edge off the upper harmonics and give a bit more output. Without the global series switch, you won't have this mode available. 2 - Local Series/Split/Parallel (HB). Local series wiring is standard on HBs. Split is a common option to give allow a "single coil" sound from a HB. Parallel coils at the neck is a very useful tone. Somewhat similar to a single coil sound, but hum-canceling. 3 - OOP. If having only (local) series/split for the HB, it's possible to wire the OOP switch to automatically change which coil is being used in the split mode. This allows hum-canceling when the split HB is combined with the bridge, regardless of in-phase or out-of-phase. But having series/split/parallel complicates things. One of the wiring "tricks" we could have used is no longer possible with the OOP switch. With a DPDT OOP switch, we can no longer swap coils on the HB when selecting the OOP mode. It would take a 4PDT OOP switch to accomplish this task. Expect to pay about $15 or more for that. Are you saying I'd have to use the HB's south coil when coil tapped? No. I'm saying a choice has to be made. Which coil to use depends on this choice. If using a DPDT for the OOP switch, a choice has to be made. Do you want the hum-canceling to occur when the the split HB and bridge are in-phase or when they are out of phase? If you won't be using HB split OOP with bridge, choose in-phase hum canceling. If you plan to use HB split OOP with bridge, choose out of phase hum-canceling. 4 - OOP with full HB and bridge single. This combination is partially hum-canceling both when in-phase or out-of-phase. No choices or compromises need to be made here. Since the only (global) possibility is pickups in parallel, the most usable OOP selection (imho) will be (local) series HB OOP with bridge. You won't have as much cancellation of the fundamental, so the sound won't be as "tinny". Not sure I need it if causes the tone pots not to work in mid position. OOP choices and dual tone pots are completely separate issues. The interaction between the two tone pots won't be affected at all by OOP. It's a product of combining two pickups and their tone pots together in parallel. Neck selection - Neck tone control affects tone. Bridge tone control has no effect. Bridge selection - Bridge tone control affects tone. Neck tone control has no effect. Both pickups selection - Both tone controls affect tone. I realize this has been a long read. But if it helps you understand the choices you can make, it's worth the time. Hum-canceling isn't the be-all end-all. It doesn't affect tone. But it does reduce noise. Get it whenever you can. Switches and controls add cost and clumsiness of operation. But they are necessary to add options to your tonal palate. Having every option known to man might not be the best choice if it requires a map and compass to figure out which switch combination is necessary to get the sound you want. Sometimes simpler is better. Sometimes it isn't. It's all about what YOU want. As the discussion goes on, you'll gravitate toward choices that will get you where you need to go.
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Post by roadtonever on Mar 13, 2012 17:35:50 GMT -5
I'd consider a variable parallel inductor control for the neck pickup instead of series/parallel/split.
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Mar 14, 2012 2:10:47 GMT -5
Ok I'm kinda following, about 80% anyway.
I think it would be best to keep it on the simple side.For the gtr & me ha. I might save trying OOP for later, on an Epi LP I have. If I'm going to go for that "Money For Nothing" type stuff I should save it for a LP. I think I just want to have this gtr have kinda 2 personality's. One warm mellow & one Twangy but not ice picky.Then if I could start blending them, even better.
I'd consider about anything. Wish I knew more so I could go ahead and tell ya all what I want.
Maybe I should just decide on what Tele style SC to buy first. Would that be the better 1st step? Just thought of something! will a TELE single coil fit it a HB slot ok??? They sell the pup ring adaptors so I assume they do.
Thanks guys I really do appreciate the help.
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Post by roadtonever on Mar 14, 2012 7:44:14 GMT -5
Definitely check out Wilde pickupsHere's a basic diagram: There are issue with combining a Tele pickup and a humbucker in the same guitar which needs to be addressed. Maybe you could try 500k pots and a 250k resistor between the bridge hot lug on the switch and ground. EDIT: Re-read your post, yeah you could get an adaptor ring to turn it into an all Tele pickup guitar. That would be more ideal even as there wouldn't be any volume discrepancies compared to the original setup proposed.
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 14, 2012 9:01:43 GMT -5
Maybe I should just decide on what Tele style SC to buy first. Would that be the better 1st step? I don't think it makes much difference which comes first. Just thought of something! will a TELE single coil fit it a HB slot ok??? They sell the pup ring adaptors so I assume they do. I've never seen a ring adapter for a tele pickup in a HB hole. Got a link?
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 14, 2012 9:24:45 GMT -5
I've never seen a ring adapter for a tele pickup in a HB hole. Got a link? A quick Google seach will reveal anything from cheap and dirty: To the more high dollar stuff: Too many links to detail. This is actually a pretty common item. HTC1
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Mar 15, 2012 2:10:36 GMT -5
I'd consider a variable parallel inductor control for the neck pickup instead of series/parallel/split. I'll have to look that up & see what it's about. Definitely check out Wilde pickupsThere are issue with combining a Tele pickup and a humbucker in the same guitar which needs to be addressed. Maybe you could try 500k pots and a 250k resistor between the bridge hot lug on the switch and ground. EDIT: Re-read your post, yeah you could get an adaptor ring to turn it into an all Tele pickup guitar. That would be more ideal even as there wouldn't be any volume discrepancies compared to the original setup proposed. Looks like a good price on those pups. I'll have to find some youtube about them. I was thinking there might be a volume problem.Might be better to have 2 Vol & 1 Tone. I plan to have a Treble Bleed switch on the Vol. If I had 2 volumes I'd probably only need one on the HB. Always thought guitars like this would be nice to have. www.glguitars.com/instruments/USA/guitars/asat-classic-bluesboy-semihollow/index.asp
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Mar 18, 2012 7:27:30 GMT -5
Well I been thinking about it and playing some. I think what I want is pretty simple but seems to be uncommon. I'm not finding much that hits right on the googles.
Is it that strange to have a HB neck & SC bridge?
Here are the things I'm pretty sure of: 1.WANT an Alnico SC bridge & the SP58 in the neck. 2.I will have a Treble Bleed switch on the Vol pot (for HB). 3. I atleast want to coiltap the HB. Series/Tapped/Parallel of the HB might be better. 4. I'll probably stay with a three way pup switch. 5. I can use 3 pots max & think 1 Vol with 2 Tones would be best? 6. The Bridge pup dose not have to get involved with anything that is going to start humming.
Well I'm probably talking half crazy so I'll shutup. I'm just not sure yet.
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 18, 2012 8:16:14 GMT -5
Is it that strange to have a HB neck & SC bridge? No.
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Post by newey on Mar 18, 2012 10:47:57 GMT -5
eag- The ASAT you linked to is another example. I'm building (well, the project has been sitting for a while . . .) a Tele with a Tele HB in the neck position and a HB-sized P90 (a GFS Dream 90) at the bridge. Note, however, that the Tele RT linked to, the ASAT, and my project all use the Seth Lover-designed Tele HB. Seth Lover designed this for Fender after Leo hired him away from Gibson in about 1970. It a distinctive HB, with the "3 X 3" pole piece screws. It's also a fairly low-output HB. So, a potential volume mismatch is not as much of an issue. Your SP58 may differ, I'm not familiar with that pup so I don't know. But it's something to consider, might be a reason for dual volume pots. You can use a dual-gang pot for a single "master" tone with dual volumes, the same way JohnH's "Strat with 2 Volumes" is wired. As stated previously, this is doable with a DPDT On-On-On switch. And, to be nit-picky and technical for a minute, you are actually "splitting" the coils (or, if you wish, "shunting" one of them). A "coil tap" is something else entirely, and not done much nowadays. I don't know what you mean by "switch" here. Do you intend to have a treble bleed cap and resistor which can be switched in/out of the circuit? This could be done, but why? I'd lean the other way, as noted above. Your bridge pickup is a SC Tele pup. Hum is generally part of the equation . . . There are some possibilities there, however. First, you can buy one of the "noiseless" Tele pickups like the Fender SCN, or Kinman. The purists (aka "Tone Nazis") will tell you that these aren't the real deal because they're not ideologically pure SCs. You (and the rest of the world) probably can't tell the difference. These will hit your wallet a bit more, however. Shielding is another option to minimize hum/noise. As noted above, you can also minimize hum issues when the HB is split to one coil (and when both pickups are selected, i.e., middle position on the 3-way) by choosing the coil you split. Just remember "opposites attract".
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 18, 2012 11:18:36 GMT -5
Is it that strange to have a HB neck & SC bridge? If I were to ever have a lax moment of lucidity and procure a Telecaster, it'd have to have a humbucker in the neck. Albert Collins, who, IMHO, was the only person to ever make a Telecaster sound good, had a humbucker in the neck. The humbucker in the neck was just part of his sound. The fingernails on his right hand that could open soup cans, the capo...usually around the 7th fret, the drop tunings and the old Quad Reverb amp all added to the mix... I don't have the ancient Guitar Player magazines anymore to reference this, but I recall reading the Collins played primarily in the middle position on a standard 3-way switch. He'd dime the volume and zero the tones on the amp and just add enough reverb to to get his sound. I think what you're looking for is, IMHO, the best way to setup a Tele. I'm sure I'll be hearing about that one... Happy Trails - Cynical One
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Post by lpf3 on Mar 18, 2012 12:19:08 GMT -5
Is it that strange to have a HB neck & SC bridge? If I were to ever have a lax moment of lucidity and procure a Telecaster, it'd have to have a humbucker in the neck. Albert Collins, who, IMHO, was the only person to ever make a Telecaster sound good, had a humbucker in the neck. The humbucker in the neck was just part of his sound. The fingernails on his right hand that could open soup cans, the capo...usually around the 7th fret, the drop tunings and the old Quad Reverb amp all added to the mix... I don't have the ancient Guitar Player magazines anymore to reference this, but I recall reading the Collins played primarily in the middle position on a standard 3-way switch. He'd dime the volume and zero the tones on the amp and just add enough reverb to to get his sound. I think what you're looking for is, IMHO, the best way to setup a Tele. I'm sure I'll be hearing about that one... Happy Trails - Cynical One Wow. Collins was great but I would have thought that his tone is a bit bright for your taste. Hm. A lot of folks like a HB in the neck position but to my ears a neck HB can be too boomy. I've never had a guitar with a mini HB but I know a lot of people like 'em for a Tele neck pup, maybe because they match up with a Tele bridge pup so well?. You know, another thing about Albert Collins is his masterful use of the Face Shifter- arguably second only to Gary Moore. ;D -lpf3
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 18, 2012 12:42:27 GMT -5
but I would have thought that his tone is a bit bright for your taste. Hm. No argument. As stated previously, I tend to drift towards a darker guitar tone...bass players...go figure... I have no intentions of ever trying to emulate Collins' tone, but I can appreciate it. If I ever did find myself in possession of a Tele the neck single coil would get launched before it ever got played. I do like newey's design of a humbucker in the neck and a P-90 in the bridge. For me, a stacked or humcancelling P-90 to be precise. Fralin, Kinman, Duncan and DiMarzio all make useable versions. I guess it's just my genetic aversion to twang... Happy Trails Cynical One
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Mar 18, 2012 19:02:47 GMT -5
Albert is exactly one of the reasons I've always thought I'd like to have a gtr like this. Don't get me wrong, I'm no Mr.Collins or ever will be but most times I've got a gtr in his open Fm with a capo nearby. I don't use a pick either just 2 fingers & a thumb so players like Mr.Collins & Knopfler I really look into. Not using a pick changes your tone reference so much that it's hard to explain myself sometimes. I think it's one of the reasons I sound like a complete idiot most of the time on sites like this.
Hum... maybe order two of these for both Vol & Tone! Is there a brand to buy? I've found out that I love GTS pots over the others.
I've got some on/on/on's. I know how to split a HB on a simple switch but when we start talking about Parallel, Phasing & windings I truely am an Idiot. ;D
Yes. Have it on a switch on a couple gtrs & like being able to switch it off. I usually only turn it on when I have to play low volumes & need to keep things from getting too muddy sounding.
I will have to check these out.I'm not a member of the party.If it sounds good, it sounds good. No hum even better. I know there are pups like this so that's why I was asking earlier if going ahead and deciding on what SC to buy would be a better 1st step. I wasn't sure if the noiseless pups would change the wiring or just open some options.
Well I'll tell ya what.I'm going to do some research on those pups & dual-gang pots. Probably be back here later tonight asking about something. Nice gts up there btw.
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Mar 18, 2012 19:12:09 GMT -5
To tell the truth I'm so undecided right now that I'm eyeballing that p90 in the bridge really hard.
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Post by newey on Mar 18, 2012 20:29:16 GMT -5
Here's a module to do this, courtesy of Unklmickey. In the scheme of things, you would want: HB--->Tone---->Vol---->this switch--->3-way pickup selector---->output
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 18, 2012 21:27:48 GMT -5
To tell the truth I'm so undecided right now that I'm eyeballing that p90 in the bridge really hard. Listen to the voices...go with the P90... HTC1
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