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Post by strat80hm on Oct 26, 2015 15:41:12 GMT -5
Hey there, back after a bunch of shows and experiments with this guitar.
PROS - all and all, i love the instrument better after I fixed a bunch of details (neck curve, fretboard, piezo, nut, bridge, electronic) - the amplified sound didnt change and is very usable loud - people and bandmembers love the new color.
CONS - the natural acoustic sound is indeed damped. - the back&sides color (brown) seem to "leak" or "stain" with the slightest sweat or humidity.
SOLUTIONS: - i have a couple of days off so i might redo the work on the top soon - i m doing tests with some liquids pigments and shellac
QUESTIONS: - how come the back is giving away color after 5 coats or so of satin lacquer? - is it a chemical reaction between shellac/pigments/lacquer/sweat? - or is it only a matter of number of layers?
Thanks in advance for any element of answer.
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Post by cynical1 on Oct 26, 2015 23:38:59 GMT -5
PROS - all and all, i love the instrument better after I fixed a bunch of details (neck curve, fretboard, piezo, nut, bridge, electronic) - the amplified sound didnt change and is very usable loud - people and bandmembers love the new color. It's amazing how much time we talked about the finish, but how little about how the new setup made it more fun to play... I have an Ibanez AEB that has no pure acoustic tone. Very muted and only good for practicing at night when the wife is asleep. Well, the best solution to the bleedout is wax...which is about the last thing you want to do if you ever entertain any dreams of getting a nice lacquer finish on it. That's a good one. Are you sure it's the back, or from the side just migrating as you handle it? If you got 5 good coats of lacquer on there, and didn't sand through any of it, I can't tell you for certain. Are there areas on the guitar changing color? If so, where? Well, it's never polite to tell a lady they're perspiring...but I'd bet dollars to donuts that your body chemistry is having a field day on that finish. As I've said before, lacquer takes 21-30 days to cure. It's very susceptible to the damage sweat can do to a guitar finish. Just look at Rory Gallagher's or Stevie Ray's Strats to get a mental image...and those were cured and buffed lacquer finishes. You might have gotten a bit too happy with the shellac. That's easily remedied by sanding it down a bit. I'm guessing there's some interesting patterns developing on portions of the finish. Hope some of this helps. Cure time is one of the things the industry got away from with baked catalyst finishes. No one does shellac and lacquer like you did. As you've seen, the performance prior to a complete cure on these two old standards can be less than sterling at times. Nothing irretrievable, just something you'll want to devote some time to allow things to cure properly so the final result sticks for good. Happy Trails - Cynical One
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Post by strat80hm on Oct 29, 2015 17:10:28 GMT -5
Haha, indeed, put the horses before the carriage and who knows you could end up at a cool place.. or not. Bone nut/bridge, thinner neck profile, carved fretboard, fretboard extension etc do change the playing experience. Indeed this guitar is now pretty mute too - did i mentioned i fill up the soundhole? - so quite friendly for strumming at night at home too. On your acoustic bass, where do you think the "no acoustic tone" quality comes from mainly? There s no change of color at all per se, just a slight " dark blue" shade (similar to oil or petrol in water) when it s being rubbed - it then disappear when "drying". It took me a moment to really understand why i ended up the shows with stained hands (as well as forearm and torso when playing shirtless - yup we do that haha): i thought i was a specific area on the guitar, but it turned out it was anytime sweaty skin got in touch with the brown parts (back, sides, headstock). It s been 4 weeks since i sprayed the lacquer, the thing is, this is not really getting better - some color still comes off when rubbed with wet finger - brown on the back, red on the the top. So regarding the color leak, you are basically saying that this might be a matter of drying time - more than solid pigments issue? Indeed i was cheap with the shellac haha. Now My understanding is that - the soundboard should be as thin and free as possible - that the back&sides are not as important in the sonic result - so even if i put too many layers of shellac on there, there are likely not the main cause of the muffled sound. The plan - i m lazy so not having to redo the brown back&sides is fine, as long as the brown stays in place.j - so I would then only have to take care of the top? that ll be nice. - sanding down the red soundboard is definitely on the list, it ll bring back some resonance. And I will love to see interesting patterns in the process, why not - then i need to adress that bridge too (i d like it brown..damned, am i gonna have stained hands for ever?) - finish up the rosette area - find some more serious fretmarks (mauve smileys are not serious arent they? and mostly you cant see them on dark stages. As always, this is helping a lot, sending genuine thanks from the East Coast Cyn.
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Post by strat80hm on Oct 29, 2015 18:08:29 GMT -5
As i finally come to realize day after day how important the top (soundboard) is to the tone, i find myself dreaming of:
- leaving the back&sides as is. - totally remove all the "finishes" from the top - tint the naked wood in red - apply a couple of thin coats of lacquer
Given that - i m lazy, prefer to keep my energy for playing - Cyn said that "sanding polyurathane is more work than you think"
The question: - if i apply a chemical stripper (Klean) on the soundboard (coated with polyurethane+tinted shellac+lacquer), what can i expect removing? (ideally, all, but i doubt it s gonna be that simple..)
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Post by cynical1 on Oct 30, 2015 10:18:28 GMT -5
I like the scalloping past the octave. Don't see that much on acoustics. How useful is that fingerboard extension?
Well, I believe the bass was never designed to resonate like a true acoustic. It's all about the preamp...which does give a very nice, almost Jazz bass like output. That, and the finish is thick enough to stop bullets...
That could be a couple of things, but as long as it wipes off it's probably nothing to be deeply concerned about.
Pretty much. Some acoustic zealots out there believe you should only pass the unopened can above the wood surfaces...
Yeah, the top does need some love. I think if you get that worked down and get the little white divots out, spraying the lacquer will produce a nice result.
I would still sand the sides and back. You've been playing and handling this guitar, and sweating on it and getting God knows what on the new finish. You really want to make sure all the potential contaminants are off this thing before you go to the lacquer. Trust me, bad things will happen otherwise...
For the bridge, you can lacquer that, too. You may want to do that with 30%-40% thinned lacquer and just wipe or brush it. It will level out enough thin and clean enough so you probably won't have any sanding to do, unless the mood strikes you.
Yeah, the smiley face fret marker's days should probably be numbered...
As always, glad to be of assistance.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by cynical1 on Oct 30, 2015 10:30:22 GMT -5
As i finally come to realize day after day how important the top (soundboard) is to the tone, i find myself dreaming of: - leaving the back&sides as is. - totally remove all the "finishes" from the top - tint the naked wood in red - apply a couple of thin coats of lacquer Given that - i m lazy, prefer to keep my energy for playing - Cyn said that "sanding polyurathane is more work than you think" The question: - if i apply a chemical stripper (Klean) on the soundboard (coated with polyurethane+tinted shellac+lacquer), what can i expect removing? (ideally, all, but i doubt it s gonna be that simple..) OK, this brings us to the reason why I don't work on acoustics if I can avoid it. They're a pain in the @ss to work on. What you do with this guitar is directly predicated on the time you have available, and how long you can do without this guitar. The reason sanding an acoustic is problematic is the fact that the top is plywood. The top ply is the pretty one. If you sand through that the idea of a tinted wood finish goes right out the window. The chemical stripper might work. From experience, the EZ Klean in the gold can is the strongest to use. It's a two part process and messy. It will fly through the lacquer and shellac. It may lift the original finish. It may also lift the bridge and loosen all your bindings as well. If it were me, I'd sand the whole body until it was smooth and inclusion free. Then I'd make a decision on what to do next from that point. Dying the lacquer is probably your best option down the road. Remember to measure and document your mix so it can be replicated or modified from a reference point versus eyeballing it. So, again, my questions are these; How much time can you give to the grunt work? How long can you be without this guitar to gig with? Happy Trails - Cynical One
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Post by strat80hm on Nov 16, 2015 20:51:43 GMT -5
Very useful for high notes and all kinds of weird noises; also useful as visual markers, "natural compressor" and thumbrest. What makes you say for sure that this is plywood? On this pics, i do not see the other ply-s per se That s a good question: i might find 7 days in a row from time to time, it could be just enough no? Hey, this sounds interesting (besides the side-effects)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2015 2:48:03 GMT -5
Hey strat it seems now Cyn1 is your remote go-to Tech! Scalloping feels great. I miss my old cheapo YJM partscaster copy. Some day (when I retire) I will do it again, right this time.
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 17, 2015 23:39:23 GMT -5
Well, you may very well have a solid top on that guitar. I wouldn't have expected it, but from your picture it sure looked like it. Unless they used an insert around the sound hole... I keep coming back to the time element, because a considerable portion of the "time" involved is going to be merely letting the guitar sit and cure. You've seen first hand what happens when a finish is not completely cured before normal handling. So, back to the guitar top. If it is solid wood top that does take a lot of the potential for disaster away. One caveat: Just as you noticed a change in the sound by adding multiple coats of finish, there will also be a change in the tone as you remove material from the wood top. Might be for the better...might not. So many things that make little to no difference in sold body electric guitars become multiplied and convoluted with an acoustic. Finish being a big thing. Most acoustic builders use as little finish as possible. French polish of a technique older than dirt, but very popular among fine instrument makers. It looks pretty, is very thin and polishes up nice. The downside is you're always applying it over the life of the instrument... Last thing...stripper... This is the strongest stuff you can get, this side of Aircraft Stripper: You'll also need this stuff, too: First you let the stripper sit for 15 minutes, according to the can...30-45 minutes always worked best for me...then scrape with a plastic scraper, then take some 3M abrasive pads, soak them in the After Wash and have at it. This stuff is nasty...as in "gives you cancer" nasty... Wear gloves, eye protection and wash up immediately between episodes. I still leave out the very real possibility that if this stuff gets in the wrong places your binding may come off faster than the finish...not to mention what it may do to the glue joints... Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by strat80hm on Nov 18, 2015 1:05:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the time- i might wanna try the stripper, i used some recently on a desk, quite efficient (it was no polyurathane though) But carefully with masking tape and away from edges (that i could finish manually or treat as-is for potential creative look haha
I d first have to locate the time now...
You re right about handling guitar too early: still stains.. haha you gotta to love the learning curve!
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Post by strat80hm on Nov 18, 2015 1:09:50 GMT -5
Hey strat it seems now Cyn1 is your remote go-to Tech! Scalloping feels great. I miss my old cheapo YJM partscaster copy. Some day (when I retire) I will do it again, right this time. Right? haha, and i m like the bad apprentice who doesnt listen and messes all up! YJM and cheap! Cool Yup, i love the feeling - and you can tap without breaking your nails - would have done the entire fretboard (vietnamese guitar style) but the capo s not so friend with it. I used a curved chisel mostly- with only very little sandpaper-over-round-file at the end - the trick is to go slowly really, removing small pieces at a time, then you cant really mess up - and even if, it would be a small ding.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 3:08:09 GMT -5
The scalloping looks just beautiful. However I think you've overdone it with the depth.
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Post by strat80hm on Nov 19, 2015 17:00:51 GMT -5
The scalloping looks just beautiful. However I think you've overdone it with the depth. Thanks - though the full-scalloped neck on the picture is not mine - it actually is a vietnamese guitar, very deep scallop. On my acoustic, i only did a partial shallow scallop - the minimum necessary to accommodate my tapping-fingers nails.
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