HSH with 3 no-off-on DPDT switches, 1 volume and one tone

[ssstonelover]

I was presented with a request to make a circuit with no central 5-way or 3-way pickup switching system. The guy wanted on-off-on DPDT switches to control the pickups instead.
The HBs were to be HB/off/SC and the SC was to be std/off/reverse wind.
After some thought this is what I came up with. Comments invited as I have not put a multimeter to anything nor made this layout before, plus he's going to be building it anyway.

[newey]

ssstonelover-

The diagram checks out OK. However, you may want to consider splitting one of the 2 HBs to the South coil so that the SC setting will be hum-cancelling when both HBs are switched on.

[ssstonelover]

That certainly occurred to me Newey. In fact I checked out this diagram from DiMarzio LP Coil Split which showed how to do that but not knowing the requester well, I was thinking he wanted maybe to emphasize the neck+mid, and mid+bridge (when both are in SC mode.... In other words to get the combo you mention I'd lose the others (at least as far as what would be simple to execute).

[newey]

Jun 29, 2023 22:28:33 GMT -5 ssstonelover said:

(at least as far as what would be simple to execute).

Yes, it would mean flipping 2 switches (phase and SC) to get that.

[reTrEaD]

Jun 29, 2023 21:57:19 GMT -5 ssstonelover said:

Jun 29, 2023 22:08:39 GMT -5 newey said:

you may want to consider splitting one of the 2 HBs to the South coil so that the SC setting will be hum-cancelling when both HBs are switched on.

Jun 29, 2023 22:28:33 GMT -5 ssstonelover said:

not knowing the requester well, I was thinking he wanted maybe to emphasize the neck+mid, and mid+bridge (when both are in SC mode....

This is one of those situations where you can't have everything. So you're stuck with focusing on what's most important. It's worth having a conversation with the one who will be using it.

Since the only pickup that can be out-of-phase is the middle, that does present some limitations. We can't embed coil-swapping in the HBs when split and the phase is flipped, because there is phase switch for either HB. And if we go for hum-canceling when a HB is split and combined with the middle pickup, we can only wire it to do that when the middle is in-phase or out-of-phase, but not both. Also, we need to consider the physical position of the coil from the HB when it's in SC mode.

Things I like about the choices you made:
1 - The Bridge HB splits to the coil that isn't so close to the bridge. This is good. If that coil is used by itself, it won't be as brittle sounding as the bridge-most coil.
2 - The Neck HB splits to the coil closest to the neck. This would be my preference, but this isn't nearly as important as the choice of coil from the Bridge pickup.
3 - The Neck (SC) + Middle and Bridge (SC) + Middle combinations hum-cancel. However they only do so when the Middle is in-phase.

Things I don't like about your choices:
1 - The Bridge (SC) + Neck (SC) combination doesn't hum-cancel.
2 - There is no combination with Middle out-of-phase that doesn't hum-cancel. If the person building this only has out-of-phase as a novelty, that's not really a big problem. However, if the intend to actually use it, it's likely they will need to use a ton more gain in that mode. The signal from an out-of-phase pair tends to be rather anemic. Greater amplification of the weak signal means greater amplification of the hum. Out-of-phase can benefit from hum-canceling even more than in-phase combinations.

What I would choose (which may or may not be what this customer would choose):

Keep the wiring for the Bridge HB the same.
Spin the Neck HB around so the South coil is closest to the Neck.
Select the South coil when the Neck HB is split.

What does that get us?

1 - The Bridge North + Middle is hum-canceling when in-phase, just like your circuit. This is my favorite combination.
2 - Bridge North + Neck South is hum-canceling. I tend to think this will be a very useful combination.
3 - Neck South + Middle will hum-cancel when out-of-phase.

Which direction to go depends on what's important to the user.

[ssstonelover]

Thanks Newey and reTrEaD,

Certainly some small improvement can be made, and worked up with the central idea that not everything can be accomplished "This is one of those situations where you can't have everything. So you're stuck with focusing on what's most important."

In that regard I worked up two further iterations of the basic design, though the bottom one has a 4th switch to allow the Bridge pickup (as illustrated) to flip between North SC and South SC, which then allow it to team up with the neck pickup nicely, something that would be nice to have from what you guys are saying.
This may mitigate some of the issues in terms of more usefulness, despite a little added complexity. Let me know your thoughts, thanks!

S2 wiring flipped around up/down, to help memory (oriented with the S1 and S3 when in SC mode too)


Bridge switchable from N to S when in SC mode (S4 switch). The S3 switch facilitates that, so really they need to work in tandem... something that to be mindful off.
S2 wiring flipped around up/down too as in the above illustration, to (orient with the S1 and S4 switched when these are in SC mode)


Thanks! Your comment will be welcomed.

[Yogi B]

Jun 29, 2023 22:08:39 GMT -5 newey said:

The diagram checks out OK.

You might want to double-check that — there's currently no difference between the full-humbucker & humbucker-off switch positions (they're on in both).

Jun 30, 2023 20:54:40 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Things I don't like about your choices:
1 - The Bridge (SC) + Neck (SC) combination doesn't hum-cancel.
2 - There is no combination with Middle out-of-phase that doesn't does hum-cancel.

2.5 — this also includes the fuller, 3-pickup, partially OoP sounds: Neck (SC) + Middle (OoP) + Bridge (HB); and Neck (HB) + Middle (OoP) + Bridge (SC). Their purely in-phase counterparts have the HB contributing about 1/3 of the total output (so roughly the same as middle + both split HBs), but with the middle switched OoP this will become greater (relative to the output of the middle & split HB, which are now mostly cancelling) — so I'd say the OoP variations should prove more useful, thus should be another minor point in favour of making the (or at least some) OoP selections hum cancelling.

[ssstonelover]

Jun 30, 2023 23:54:18 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Jun 29, 2023 22:08:39 GMT -5 newey said:

The diagram checks out OK.

You might want to double-check that — there's currently no difference between the full-humbucker & humbucker-off switch positions (they're on in both).

Maybe I am misunderstanding things Yogi B (I do get things wrong at times of course).
-I have the DPDT switch version on-off-on and tested it with my multimeter and none of the lugs connect 'live' between themselves in the middle toggle position, which would seem to constitute a humbucker-off (or rather everything off) position
-I don't have the 4PDT on-off-on switch, so can't do a double-check but the diagram shows the middle toggle is also 'dead' and there are no connection between any poles

[newey]

Jul 1, 2023 0:57:41 GMT -5 ssstonelover said:

Maybe I am misunderstanding things Yogi B (I do get things wrong at times of course).

No, Yogi's right (And I was too quick to pass the diagram).

With On-Off-On switches, as shown on the first diagram, you are using those to short the "series junction" of each of the HBs. When shorted, you get the single coil. But in both other positions, the series junction is wired together, meaning both coils are connected in series (std. HB, IOW). Meanwhile, the "hot" and ground leads from each HB are connected to hot at the V pot and to ground, respectively.

This can be fairly easily solved- you just have to use the other half of each switch to switch the hot lead of the pickup in/out.

[ssstonelover]

Thanks Newey and Yogi for catching that. I now have egg all over my face LOL.
This is why (generally speaking) I like to build stuff before posting (or at least put the alligator clips up to parts of previously untested circuits) and get some proof of concept..... My bad..and seeing it was going to be for someone else who may be an inexperienced builder....my double bad. I've not used on-off-on switches before, but I think they are interesting, now that I see their use.

I redid the 1st version, and am posting it below for another pass. If it works out, I'll redo the other 2 versions (which borrow and have the same issue (though the 3rd version with 4 switches would have the issue only on the S1 switch now.... If you see unrelated issues on those 2 drawings let me know. Thanks!!!

[newey]

Yes, that is what I was thinking. Looks good.

[ssstonelover]

Thanks for looking it over Newey.

I modified the Version 2 and Version 3 now too.
-Version 2: Like Version 1 but wiring on the single coil flipped around to put normal RWRP in the "up' position to work with both HB when those are flipped up in SC. Down on the mid pickup would give the phase sound.
-Version 3: made to address the issue of putting both HBs in SC mode at the same time (more in earlier posts). This was an issue reTrEaD did not like, and I understand that. In summary the bridge pickup can be flipped from N to S pole and wire direction is RW wound at that time too, so it would be a full RWRP to the neck.Of coure in HB mode nothing special happens. The only annoying part of that wiring is it require a 4th switch, a 4PDT on-off-on for all the flipping, but is seems a worthwhile effort if you like neck and bridge on at the same time and both in SC mode....

V.2 below

V.3 below

[Yogi B]

The switching arrangement of S3/S4 is somewhat confusing. Since both are still ON/OFF/ON switches, this should equate to 9 rows in their combined truth table.

That being said, looking at S4: the black, white, red & green wires are all connected together, so it could be replaced with a SPST toggling whether the blue wire is connected to the other four. That leaves S4 toggling between full HB and split — the coil choice is solely determined by the stacking order selected by S3.

---

Using a 4PDT to reverse the stacking the humbucker coils is necessary if you're trying to avoid leaving the unused coil shunted-to or hanging-from hot, and you want the phase to remain the same.

If we can live without fulfilling both of those objectives, then we can use just a SPDT to swap which end of the coil the series link (black/white) gets connected to, either: green, shunting the south coil to ground; or red, shunting the north coil to hot. Alternatively, as reTrEaD mentioned earlier, if the humbuckers had (DPDT) phase switches we can get coil swapping for free:

So, if adding switches, I'd add phase switches to the humbuckers — maybe combining both into a single 4PDT (either ON/ON or ON/ON/ON (type 2/3)), but more likely a separate DPDT for each.

[ssstonelover]

Jul 5, 2023 0:17:27 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

The switching arrangement of S3/S4 is somewhat confusing. Since both are still ON/OFF/ON switches, this should equate to 9 rows in their combined truth table.

That being said, looking at S4: the black, white, red & green wires are all connected together, so it could be replaced with a SPST toggling whether the blue wire is connected to the other four. That leaves S4 toggling between full HB and split — the coil choice is solely determined by the stacking order selected by S3.

I could not agree more, thanks! Your solution is elegant, ingenious, and simple -- assuming I am understanding it correctly, and I have nothing misdirected in my interpretation.
Could you take a look? Thanks! S4 DOWN would give HB (either N or S) on S3 (my description on the drawing missed that point just calling it "off' which in a loose sense it is as well)

I've worked up the new incarnation below (I'm calling it version 4, though it really is just an alternative V.3)


As far as the other suggestions, they are interesting and inventive too and others here might like the more varied Oop options they present, so I think it's great you have laid out all the option directions such a wiring could go to.

[ssstonelover]

Looks like I have the wording for North and South flipped on the S3 switch boxes in terms of when the switch as UP or DOWN (per discussion with Steve Morris, a non-member here). He also suggested a further simplification to the S4 wiring coming from S3, building on what Yogi had previously suggested. Here it is.