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Post by ssstonelover on Nov 17, 2023 15:33:31 GMT -5
Well nothing is perfect, tastes and opinions change. etc. I think you are far ahead of the curve on this in terms of getting ideal sounds. There are some ways to throw an extra cap or resistor in parallel to pull out the shrill at "10" without really affecting anything else, and some of the other forum members will know this far better than me and should chime in, as this is something I'd like to know better both theoretically and practically. Here is one article on 'taming' the shrill and keeping it just on one pickup. Shrill killing They show one to 3 locations, but honestly it can be even be located on the 5-way itself (I can't find that video today, but I've seen it before, sigh) Thanks for the 'Wilde' construction info! Lots of good pickup design approaches out there.
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Post by gckelloch on Nov 17, 2023 18:18:02 GMT -5
Adding more parallel R has the same effect as turning the tone knob down a bit, while parallel C lowers the resonant freq. I mentioned b4 that Aluminum shielding of a certain thickness reduces shrillness. The guitar in my video had a 0.014" thick Al shield from GFS under the pickguard. That does a little to reduce harsh upper-mids. Two of those shields would be much more noticeable, and possibly too soft-sounding. It doesn't seem like your guitar needs that.
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Post by ms on Nov 17, 2023 19:51:26 GMT -5
Well nothing is perfect, tastes and opinions change. etc. I think you are far ahead of the curve on this in terms of getting ideal sounds. There are some ways to throw an extra cap or resistor in parallel to pull out the shrill at "10" without really affecting anything else, and some of the other forum members will know this far better than me and should chime in, as this is something I'd like to know better both theoretically and practically. Here is one article on 'taming' the shrill and keeping it just on one pickup. Shrill killing They show one to 3 locations, but honestly it can be even be located on the 5-way itself (I can't find that video today, but I've seen it before, sigh) Thanks for the 'Wilde' construction info! Lots of good pickup design approaches out there. From the article you referenced: 'Using a “shunt" resistor works well to reduce highs and offers an excellent alternative to replacing the pickup itself.' When you replace a pickup, you usually change the resonant frequency of the circuit by changing the inductance of the pickup. The shunt resistor makes the resonance lower and broader, a different thing, but actually, you need to be able to do both. It is possible to lower the resonant frequency without changing the pickup as well. You can put inductance in series. So I think you can do what I think you want, that is, lower the resonant frequency and lower the Q (broader and lower peak) of just the one pickup. I have never heard of anyone doing both these steps together, but it should work.
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Post by ssstonelover on Nov 18, 2023 0:17:53 GMT -5
From the article you referenced: 'Using a “shunt" resistor works well to reduce highs and offers an excellent alternative to replacing the pickup itself.' When you replace a pickup, you usually change the resonant frequency of the circuit by changing the inductance of the pickup. The shunt resistor makes the resonance lower and broader, a different thing, but actually, you need to be able to do both. It is possible to lower the resonant frequency without changing the pickup as well. You can put inductance in series. So I think you can do what I think you want, that is, lower the resonant frequency and lower the Q (broader and lower peak) of just the one pickup. I have never heard of anyone doing both these steps together, but it should work. OK. that's one approach. The idea situation is just to reduce some shrill at "10" on the pot and leave the other points alone (in terms of how the tone pot sees them), I think that is what gckelloch is going for. But he points out there is some 'collateral damage' (reduced volume) with putting a resistor in parallel, so this may be a non-starter, as he likes the pickup at all the other points on the tone sweep I finally found the other link I was searching for about using capacitors to kill shrill, this seems to have a global effect so would move the resonant peak for any point 10-1 as seen by the tone pot....so won't not meet his criteria either (my interpretation of what I think he has going on in his bridge pickup). Here is the link and toward the end he shows mounting. Yes, interesting, but maybe more so on a pickup which is really misbehaving tonally than one that is 'close to perfect'.... Try this before buying new pickups Too much collocal change I think , so the question is if there is a more surgical way to tweak (maybe). I'm guessing no....
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Post by unreg on Nov 18, 2023 0:34:34 GMT -5
I kill shrill when the volume pot is at 10, by turning it down just slightly. That slight turn doesn’t decrease the volume level for me, but DOES eliminate the shrill treble. I’m sure you all already know this; want to give others another option BESIDES using a capacitor or resistor. Adding those affect the pot, but a slight down-turn of a maxed volume pot keeps everything rotation-wise the same.
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Post by gckelloch on Nov 18, 2023 2:43:13 GMT -5
I think there's a misunderstanding about my statement of the slight shrillness. I was happy with the sound of the pickup as it was configured-- with a ~1dB peak at ~4.2kHz into a 1M input. Lowering the tone knob to 9.5 rounded it off perfectly for me with that amp sound, but there was still a nice chime at 10 for clean tones. Oddly enough, the original wave file was rendered to 96kSR/32FPbit with a -6dB peak. I can actually hear a slight difference in the high end and maybe the punch compared to the version I converted to dithered 48kSR/24bit, which was then converted to a 320kbps MP3 when rendered with the video. That final version of then has the expected subtle reduction in transient and reverb soundstage coherence.
No further guitar modifications were required, but I have since moved the entire pickguard configuration to a hardtail S-type that has a 4.2lb Austrian pine body with an embedded Brass block, a Steel bridge plate with thick Ti-plated Steel saddles (which slightly smooth the high-end), and a very nice bound Roasted-Maple neck with square pearloid inlays that was spray finished with Catalyzed poly BEFORE the Stainless frets were installed, which seems to hold up just fine. It has a more typical "glassy" Strat tone with the 9-42 cryo-frozen Ni/Fe alloy strings and the damping characteristics of the pine body I hear as reduced lower midrange and possibly a softer attack. I embedded the Brass block to improve sustain, and then pushed in some thin acetal sheeting in front and back of it to increase structural rigidity in hopes of improving the low end, which did seem to work. I do prefer the new guitar sound to the original, and the fine fretwork allows for very low action without any perceivable buzzy spots, as with my old Parker NiteFly V1.
I didn't say adding a shunt resistor reduces overall output. Maybe it does, but I thought it just reduces the high end like turning the tone knob down a bit. The 1n5F tone knob cap gives me nice tonal versatility with the ~2.2kHz peak I want at 0 and many pleasant spots along the sweep. It's good as is. I generally prefer the versatility of a smoother peak and extended highs my very low C cable offers over the reduced highs or a lower freq peak of added R or C. The new pine guitar may damp more highs than the old one, but the thinner/brighter strings counter that to some degree.
I plan to install my Wilde L200SN/L200SM/L200SL set into the old guitar, now with the heavy Ash body, when I finally gather the gumption to drill out a bunch of holes in the back to reduce weight. That guitar now has massive low-end. The L200 set produce weaker lower note harmonics with a "quacky" sort of mid-dip and less higher highs than the Mico-Coils due to higher inductance, and what appears to be a higher Q per inductance (judging from a measurement I once took of the 2.8H L200SM & 2.8H bridge MC), perhaps due to slightly thicker coil wire.
One point SRV mentioned in the article I posted was about RW vs lacquered Maple FB's. He said lacquered Maple gave his finger tips blisters when he sweat. Will see how the smooth feeling catalyzed poly and stainless frets fair in that respect, but I just don't play it much with so many other guitars now, and I don't play out anymore.
...and I almost forgot. I demand you fly this thread to Cuba! 😉
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Post by ms on Nov 18, 2023 6:15:08 GMT -5
From the article you referenced: 'Using a “shunt" resistor works well to reduce highs and offers an excellent alternative to replacing the pickup itself.' When you replace a pickup, you usually change the resonant frequency of the circuit by changing the inductance of the pickup. The shunt resistor makes the resonance lower and broader, a different thing, but actually, you need to be able to do both. It is possible to lower the resonant frequency without changing the pickup as well. You can put inductance in series. So I think you can do what I think you want, that is, lower the resonant frequency and lower the Q (broader and lower peak) of just the one pickup. I have never heard of anyone doing both these steps together, but it should work. OK. that's one approach. The idea situation is just to reduce some shrill at "10" on the pot and leave the other points alone (in terms of how the tone pot sees them), I think that is what gckelloch is going for. But he points out there is some 'collateral damage' (reduced volume) with putting a resistor in parallel, so this may be a non-starter, as he likes the pickup at all the other points on the tone sweep I finally found the other link I was searching for about using capacitors to kill shrill, this seems to have a global effect so would move the resonant peak for any point 10-1 as seen by the tone pot....so won't not meet his criteria either (my interpretation of what I think he has going on in his bridge pickup). Here is the link and toward the end he shows mounting. Yes, interesting, but maybe more so on a pickup which is really misbehaving tonally than one that is 'close to perfect'.... Try this before buying new pickups Too much collocal change I think , so the question is if there is a more surgical way to tweak (maybe). I'm guessing no.... When you add a small value capacitor in parallel with the pickup, its effect is mostly washed out with a low number tone setting because the value of the tone capacitor is significantly larger, and so the value of the two in parallel has not relatively changed that much. Adding inductance in series does affect the lower frequency resonance from the tone capacitor at low number tone settings. When you change the pickup, you are mostly changing the inductance. So maybe if you want to do something similar to changing the pickup, adding inductance in series would be the closest thing. My experience is that you need the two degrees of freedom, location of peak and width of peak, but you do have some options as to how to do this, but they are not all exactly the same.
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Post by gckelloch on Nov 18, 2023 7:18:24 GMT -5
Perhaps the best approach would be to use that 1n5F cap on a switch with a ~10k R in front of it to get a mild 2~2.5kHz peak when desired. I like that peak a lot on all the pickups. A 22k or 50k trim pot could be used to fine-tune the peak to taste, and you'd still have the much lower tone knob peak option. That's three different peak freq options per pickup, including the one from whatever cable C you use.
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Post by ssstonelover on Nov 21, 2023 3:03:44 GMT -5
Waah (finally after more than 2 weeks of my badgering them on their Aliexpress web store) will credit me for the one failed pickup. No credit for freight or tax, just for a pickup, but it's better than nothing. It is also less than the cost of finding a replacement, but it closes much of the gap at least.
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mitch88
Apprentice Shielder
Posts: 35
Likes: 1
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Post by mitch88 on Feb 27, 2024 15:29:50 GMT -5
Model: Waah City Limits SSS Alnico 5 Guitar Pickups Single Coil for ST style Guitars N/M/B Pickup S.R.V Style Blues All Pickups are 52mm Spacing Vintage Fiber in Black Alnico Magnet in V Heavy Build Coil Wire in AWG RWRP for Middle Pickups Vintage Cloth Lead Resistance: Neck-5.8K Middle-6.0K Bridge-9.0K Within 2 weeks after installation the neck pickup ceased functioning. I removed and checked with multimeter. -I found the black and while wires were fine (from one end to the other), but that there was no continuity between the black and white at the output side. -I reflowed the solder on the bobbin forms but there was no continuity improvement (between the fine coil wire and hook up wires), the pickup was still dead. -I checked the fine wire from the coil going the the bobbin form where the white and black wires are soldered, and both fine wires appear intact and unbroken. -Working hypothesis is that there is a break or short in the coil itself, though as to why it would fail after a mere 2 weeks is unknown. Waah has been totally uncooperative in assistance so far, despite the written warranty, so I can not in good conscience recommend that brand, and as Donlis make a similar product, which I have used successfully, I would suggest them as the rational alternative. Should the situation change and they honor the warranty, I'll update this report. I hope they are honorable. If anyone has an idea of what to test next, let me know. For the moment I have ordered a replacement pickup from another brand, and am absorbing the financial hit.... Oh joy. the DC resistance should read ~5.8K ohm, but as you can see I am showing no connection, so a break in the wiring somewhere. Here is the pickup when inspected after failure, and then the pickup after reflowing the solder. First I reflowed to the bottom side (no change in resistance) and then added soldter to the top side just in case. There was no change, circuit is still unconnected, so a break in the wiring somewhere. I pulled back the cloth covering so you can see the leads are going correctly into the holes and so you can see the 42G coil wire is wrapped correctly into the holes as well.
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mitch88
Apprentice Shielder
Posts: 35
Likes: 1
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Post by mitch88 on Feb 27, 2024 15:30:40 GMT -5
Model: Waah City Limits SSS Alnico 5 Guitar Pickups Single Coil for ST style Guitars N/M/B Pickup S.R.V Style Blues All Pickups are 52mm Spacing Vintage Fiber in Black Alnico Magnet in V Heavy Build Coil Wire in AWG RWRP for Middle Pickups Vintage Cloth Lead Resistance: Neck-5.8K Middle-6.0K Bridge-9.0K Within 2 weeks after installation the neck pickup ceased functioning. I removed and checked with multimeter. -I found the black and while wires were fine (from one end to the other), but that there was no continuity between the black and white at the output side. -I reflowed the solder on the bobbin forms but there was no continuity improvement (between the fine coil wire and hook up wires), the pickup was still dead. -I checked the fine wire from the coil going the the bobbin form where the white and black wires are soldered, and both fine wires appear intact and unbroken. -Working hypothesis is that there is a break or short in the coil itself, though as to why it would fail after a mere 2 weeks is unknown. Waah has been totally uncooperative in assistance so far, despite the written warranty, so I can not in good conscience recommend that brand, and as Donlis make a similar product, which I have used successfully, I would suggest them as the rational alternative. Should the situation change and they honor the warranty, I'll update this report. I hope they are honorable. If anyone has an idea of what to test next, let me know. For the moment I have ordered a replacement pickup from another brand, and am absorbing the financial hit.... Oh joy. the DC resistance should read ~5.8K ohm, but as you can see I am showing no connection, so a break in the wiring somewhere. Here is the pickup when inspected after failure, and then the pickup after reflowing the solder. First I reflowed to the bottom side (no change in resistance) and then added soldter to the top side just in case. There was no change, circuit is still unconnected, so a break in the wiring somewhere. I pulled back the cloth covering so you can see the leads are going correctly into the holes and so you can see the 42G coil wire is wrapped correctly into the holes as well.
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mitch88
Apprentice Shielder
Posts: 35
Likes: 1
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Post by mitch88 on Feb 27, 2024 15:40:49 GMT -5
Dont buy Chinese unless you have to. Their manufacturing is up the crap, there plagiarism is unstoppable, and their facts are false. And checking the Waah advert the pkups are Aluminium. Why would you bother. China cant even manufacture underwear properly - have you notice slight differences in a Pack of 5 mens briefs? and sizes are stated wrong ie 110cm is more like 90cm - Stranglers!! And 'Ali-Express' well come on, Tik-Tok wake up its for kids to get trapped in, Huawei - well say no more!! br] Im surprised you got to contact Ali-Express, i couldnt find anywhere to querry. Addit: Im not referring to the people its regarding the Government policies to move into all markets and sell.
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Post by ssstonelover on Feb 28, 2024 5:45:43 GMT -5
Hi Mitch, I have flown to China (for unrelated bicycle business) many times and have seen the good, the bad, and the indifferent side of things (in terms of quality, price, and more) as I spec'ed, bought, and had to service products the company I worked for brought in from there. We had products that were fine, and others products that made me scratch my head in bafflement. Some were so bad, they were just were big problems. Other bikes companies had many of the same issues, depending on who their suppliers were.
Overall there has been improvement over the years I have observed and now that China is not so cheap (labor costs and currency values have increased) they do have to now add quality as a calling card. Customers can push back (as I did) to address issues, and the smarter companies try to forestall that by building in better quality, though certainly it is a multi-year process to make improved items and fool-proof industrial processes. On the negative side, there is still some tendency to 'race to the bottom' and compete with price, quality be damned, just to keep the (more ignorant) customers happy, so that is the tug-of-war dynamic for Chinese exporters.
Sure I like to support good brands, but there is a huge difference in price between, for example, Seymour Duncan, and 2nd or 3rd tier companies such as Waah, Donlis, Fleor, GFS, etc., and I don't always build boutique level guitars. Fortunately I just consumed a purchase arrangement with Seymour Duncan. Know that if you quality as a builder (say 24 pickups in the first order) SD will give you a hefty discount. That was my solution to my frustration of uneven quality, and that somewhat leveled out the playing field, though US pickups are still far more money even then, plus the up front cash outlay is substantial for 24 pickups!
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mitch88
Apprentice Shielder
Posts: 35
Likes: 1
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Post by mitch88 on Feb 28, 2024 16:36:46 GMT -5
Being in Australia, the Austral-Asian Pacific trade region, we have always been flooded with mainly Chinese made items because of their large manufacturing base but its poor quality, and its hard to see it gettting better when its cheap to buy. Ive bought chinese items from dash board diodes to guitar amps. Anyway, thanks for your time n effort with pkup testing.
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