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Post by JohnH on Apr 8, 2024 7:59:05 GMT -5
I wouldn't be sure thst Shekter would necessarily follow SD for n-s coil polarity even if the basic wire colours are matching. But if doesn't matter. Just need to check which wires go to which coil (connect to an amp and tap pole with a screwdriver) or follow what you can work out from the current wiring. Definitely use the coils you want in position 3.
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 8, 2024 13:48:46 GMT -5
It all sounds cool and the key thing is that you have a clear opinion based on how you play, of what you'd like this to do. For that number 3 position, your arrangement is giving you hum-canceling, and that's worth having. That boils down to having a North coil and a South coil. But it doesn't matter which is which. On my diagram I called them Neck (n) at top left, and Bridge (s) at lower right, which mix together for setting 3. But I didn't need to know which was n and s, so long as they are different. All your settings have one of each. Thanks for that. I do just lose it with hum. I've even been looking at maybe trying this Bill Lawrence idea of filtering the frequencies sent to ground as outlined in this Mod Garage article, but I've never tried it. |
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 8, 2024 14:52:47 GMT -5
This is a very specialized 5-way Alpha produced that Ibanez used extensively in their 2HB guitars. Part number is 2502n. Dude, thanks for this! I was having so much trouble deciphering the logic from the Schecter diagram, so I decided to open the pickguard and check for continuity and figure this out myself, but I kept saying "This can't be right!" By the way, it turns out this diagram is exactly right; it does have a treble bleed cap on it; I just thought it wasn't there since it gets so dark rolled back. Finally I found this thomann link for the switch, which revealed the ungodly switching logic. I've combined it here with the Schecter diagram: 
You could have hum-canceling with inners and outers but it would require you to rotate your neck pickup such that the slug (North) coil is closest to the neck. But since you're happy with the selections you've already experienced, that's a moot point. We should focus on getting you what you requested, in the proper switch positions with the required volume and tone selections. Thank you for mentioning this! So really just physically placing the pickup in that orientation would do it? I had for some reason assumed it would require disassembling the pickup and turning around the magnet. It's been so long since I had the four mini switches allowing for series / parallel / north split / south split for each pickup, I can't remember exactly why I liked the outer coil combination best, I only remember that outers were best to me, followed by bridge inner / neck outer. Maybe it was a more extreme quack. But I must say, right now I'm loving the bridge inner / neck outer combination, as it will have marginally more heft due to the position of the active bridge coil. Also, my tastes change over time, so I can't be sure I'd feel the same way now. I'll stick with the version I know I love now. Regardless, I wanted to try to wrap my head around why this would work the way you said, so I created a chart. I think you're saying this chart represents why just physically flipping the pickup would allow for the hum-cancelling outers combination:
| Current Configuration | Potential Configuration | | Neck Outer | Clockwise South | Counterclockwise North | | Bridge Inner | Counterclockwise North |
| | Bridge Outer |
| Clockwise South |
If I'm understanding this correctly, this totally makes sense to me. John's schematic will get you something very close to that in position 3. But it will be bridge outer / neck inner. If you're satisfied with that, leave everything as he has it. If you want bridge inner / neck outer, make the following changes: Exchange Neck (n) and Neck (s). Exchange Bridge (n) and Bridge (s). Well, you're right. Looking at the switching logic of this unholy 5-way, I see now that, for their position 2, they're sending the bridge black and neck red to hot. Time to rework the diagram. You saved me so much time! Thanks for sounding the alarm. |
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 8, 2024 14:54:37 GMT -5
I wouldn't be sure thst Shekter would necessarily follow SD for n-s coil polarity even if the basic wire colours are matching. But if doesn't matter. Just need to check which wires go to which coil (connect to an amp and tap pole with a screwdriver) or follow what you can work out from the current wiring. Definitely use the coils you want in position 3. You hit the nail on the head. It's not what I thought! I'll rework the diagram once I get a chance. In the meantime I've got a new superswitch, dual concentric pots, and dual concentric knobs on the way. |
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 8, 2024 18:09:35 GMT -5
both north coils are outers I would expect the screw coils are South magnetic polarity I finally took a compass to the pickups, and it turns our the outer (screw) coils are North. I'm taking a hard look at my diagram again. I love knowing better how all this works! |
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 8, 2024 22:02:19 GMT -5
I finally took a compass to the pickups, and it turns our the outer (screw) coils are North. I'm taking a hard look at my diagram again. I love knowing better how all this works! If your screws attract the end of the compass needle that normally points to the North, the screw coils are South. This might sound counter-intuitive, but that's how we define North and South. guitarnuts2.proboards.com/post/62692/thread |
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 9, 2024 8:13:41 GMT -5
I finally took a compass to the pickups, and it turns our the outer (screw) coils are North. I'm taking a hard look at my diagram again. I love knowing better how all this works! If your screws attract the end of the compass needle that normally points to the North, the screw coils are South. This might sound counter-intuitive, but that's how we define North and South. guitarnuts2.proboards.com/post/62692/threadIt's perfect that in thread from twelve years ago you address my concerns back to back, first dealing with coils that are rotated 180°, then how properly for one to ascertain pickup magnet polarity with a compass. I thought immediately that in magnets opposites attract, but I wasn't entirely sure if that principle works with a compass needle in the same fashion, so I actually read a couple of articles and several threads from different forums dealing with this before testing. The outer coils on my guitar do cause the compass needle to point away, so they are north, as Yogi B. assumed. Between newey, , JohnH, Yogi B, and you, I'm absolutely in school in this, and I'm so grateful. Guitar electronics is so niche and interdisciplinary of an area of study, and with the state of the internet it's easy when seeking guidance on these topics instead to find a torrent of unhelpful and / or inaccurate bloviation. One consistent thread (no pun intended) that draws me to this forum is the earnestness I see in seeking answers that are tethered both to solid theoretical understanding and to their application to real world problems. I don't mean to descend this thread into pure adoration, but it's striking to me, having tried to source answers on my guitar electronics topics over the years, and having found plenty of strangely belligerent argument from those in favor more of erecting an edifice of expertise than feeling the need actually to have any. |
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 9, 2024 8:16:13 GMT -5
Thanks Yogi, now with 50's tone control on Neck, and wiring fixed  May I ask what software you used to create this final version of your schematic? I know you started with pen and paper, but you ended up with this laid out so nicely here. This inspired me to try to play with your schematic based on my new understanding of how Schecter had routed the wires at the factory, but I couldn't find any schematic software that allowed for a five way switch. |
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Post by newey on Apr 9, 2024 8:28:49 GMT -5
it's easy when seeking guidance on these topics instead to find a torrent of unhelpful and / or inaccurate bloviation. "Bloviation" comes to us courtesy of former US President Warren G. Harding, FYI. The torrent comes from people trying to sell you something. We're not. |
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 9, 2024 8:42:00 GMT -5
it's easy when seeking guidance on these topics instead to find a torrent of unhelpful and / or inaccurate bloviation. "Bloviation" comes to us courtesy of former US President Warren G. Harding, FYI. The torrent comes from people trying to sell you something. We're not. I don't mean underhanded salesmen per se, which of course I have seen also, but the number of threads I've seen in which users with nothing but self-importance to seem hell bent mainly to portray themselves as experts in anything at all, without the humility it takes simply to interrogate an idea until everyone's understand is bettered, or at least more nuanced. It's mostly characterized by those who, in reponse to deeper probes into ideas, start lashing out and denigrating those trying to seek further understanding. Most questions to which I've sought answers have been asked ad nauseum, so I almost never need to ask myself, and I just see example after example of this kind of thing. Simple questions that descend into weirdly personal attacks in which people mainly want to be right rather learn or teach something. Though you could mean, by those trying to sell something, simply trying to sell their aspirational views of themselves. Interesting to learn the etymology of bloviation with Harding specifically! I relate that kind of fascile and reason-abandoning discourse to particular styles of political speech, so my choice of terms feels even more apt with this context haha! |
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Post by newey on Apr 9, 2024 8:52:52 GMT -5
Harding used it to talk about he and his buddies sitting on the front porch "bloviating", a more polite way of saying "shooting the Sh*t". Harding was an interesting guy although a lousy President. There is a debate among historians as to whether he was, in fact, our first Black President; there were rumors (and some evidence as well) to suggest that his grandparents may have been passing as white for decades before Warren was born. He also fathered an illegitimate child a year before he was elected President, and then paid money to keep it a secret while in the White House. He was also rumored to have been poisoned at his death, although this was never confirmed.
I always assumed that your "users with nothing but self-importance" are simply repeating marketing-speak they read somewhere online. Once folks get a particular notion in their minds it can be difficult to unseat it.
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 9, 2024 8:54:34 GMT -5
Harding used it to talk about he and his buddies sitting on the front porch "bloviating", a more polite way of saying "shooting the Sh*t". I always assumed that your "users with nothing but self-importance" are simply repeating marketing-speak they read somewhere online. Once folks get a particular notion in their minds it can be difficult to unseat it. I see what you're saying. You're probably right. |
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 9, 2024 12:25:08 GMT -5
Okay, reconciling both that the outer coils are North and Schecter had the red wire of the neck designated as a North wire, that means the color code is reversed for the neck, and Green is North Start. I adjusted the diagram to display this properly. DIY Layout Creator has a set position of the right hand side of the North coil when North is facing toward the fretboard, for the connectors on a humbucker, defaulting for the four wires to be North Start, North Finish, South Finish, South Start from top to bottom. So the only way to get the program to understand both outer coils to be North is to rotate the bridge pickup 180° in the diagram and work with the wires coming out of the left side in reverse order; Black is still North Start for the bridge. I was then able to redesignate which was the slug and which was the screw coil, then switch the colors. This is still just translating JohnH's schematic, but reversing the wire colors for the neck pickup and rotating the bridge pickup so the program could run its analysis properly. I'm fighting a migraine as I write this, but once it's over I will take a screwdriver to tap on the pickups in the factory wired position 2 to verify that they have accurately labeled neck red wire as a North wire in their diagram. Here's the corrected diagram:  |
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 9, 2024 13:13:48 GMT -5
I did the screwdriver tap test on position 2 with the factory wiring, and it is indeed bridge inner / neck outer. That does confirm that the neck pickup has a reverse color code, since the red wire is the neck hot in that position!
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Post by unreg on Apr 9, 2024 14:49:39 GMT -5
I don’t mean to derail this thread.  it's easy when seeking guidance on these topics instead to find a torrent of unhelpful and / or inaccurate bloviation. You sir, seem like one who would enjoy reading ChrisK’s writings. ChrisK was the guy who began this forum guitarnuts. Brains you’ve met like newey, reTrEaD, Yogi B, and JohnH learned from ChrisK. If you haven’t explored all yet, ChrisK is talked about in Forum Heros>In Memoriam. reTrEaD linked this ChrisK resource there: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/user/33/recent |
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 9, 2024 14:56:31 GMT -5
I don’t mean to derail this thread. it's easy when seeking guidance on these topics instead to find a torrent of unhelpful and / or inaccurate bloviation. You sir, seem like one who would enjoy reading ChrisK’s writings. ChrisK was the guy who began this forum guitarnuts. Brains you’ve met like newey, reTrEaD, Yogi B, and JohnH learned from ChrisK. If you haven’t explored all yet, ChrisK is talked about in Forum Heros>In Memoriam. reTrEaD linked this ChrisK resource there: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/user/33/recentThanks so much for that! I had actually read a lot of the ChrisK stuff some time ago, when I was really first trying to get basic theoretical understanding and reading through many threads in the Reference Articles section. It's wonderful that something so truly helpful has kept going, but so sad it had to go on without him. I've happened upon many of the threads where he's leant his thoughts, and I appreciate the suggestion! |
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Post by JohnH on Apr 9, 2024 16:16:04 GMT -5
Thanks Yogi, now with 50's tone control on Neck, and wiring fixed May I ask what software you used to create this final version of your schematic? I know you started with pen and paper, but you ended up with this laid out so nicely here. This inspired me to try to play with your schematic based on my new understanding of how Schecter had routed the wires at the factory, but I couldn't find any schematic software that allowed for a five way switch. I've been using a free online tool from Digikey, called 'Scheme-it' . Obviously, they'd love it if working there leads to sales for them of parts. But It's very polite and doesn't push that. Designs are stored on their server, and you can go back and modify designs or adapt them to make new designs. As an amateur I have no problems with letting them store the stuff, and I can work from any machine, even my office laptop which does not allow installing programs. Scheme-it has just enough parts available to represent a guitar schematic, including switches with 2, 3 and 5 poles. For a normal Strat switch with 5 positions but just 3 connection lugs each side, we have to work with what is available and just allow for positions 2 and 4. Once its done, you can create and download a graphic in various formats including pdf to make a local copy. Sometimes I make a copy and then bring it into MS Word or a graphics program to add more annotation or colours etc. It's easy to edit, move things, copy and paste etc and you can undo edits. Sometimes in deleting a part, it will delete the wires that join to it, which we might not intend. Most of my older diagrams and also layout diagrams I did using simple graphics symbols in MS Word. Link to Scheme-it: www.digikey.com.au/en/resources/design-tools/schemeitYou need to make a user ID, but it doesn't need anything sensitive. There are other free schematic tools, and I tried a few but picked this one for the nice bold and clear diagrams that it makes. |
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 9, 2024 17:06:33 GMT -5
I've been using a free online tool from Digikey, called 'Scheme-it' . Obviously, they'd love it if working there leads to sales for them of parts. But It's very polite and doesn't push that. Designs are stored on their server, and you can go back and modify designs or adapt them to make new designs. As an amateur I have no problems with letting them store the stuff, and I can work from any machine, even my office laptop which does not allow installing programs. Scheme-it has just enough parts available to represent a guitar schematic, including switches with 2, 3 and 5 poles. For a normal Strat switch with 5 positions but just 3 connection lugs each side, we have to work with what is available and just allow for positions 2 and 4. Once its done, you can create and download a graphic in various formats including pdf to make a local copy. Sometimes I make a copy and then bring it into MS Word or a graphics program to add more annotation or colours etc. It's easy to edit, move things, copy and paste etc and you can undo edits. Sometimes in deleting a part, it will delete the wires that join to it, which we might not intend. Most of my older diagrams and also layout diagrams I did using simple graphics symbols in MS Word. Link to Scheme-it: www.digikey.com.au/en/resources/design-tools/schemeitYou need to make a user ID, but it doesn't need anything sensitive. There are other free schematic tools, and I tried a few but picked this one for the nice bold and clear diagrams that it makes. That is great. A cloud solution is so convenient, like you said. Thanks for letting me know! Since I'm so green with schematics, what I wanted to do was simply copy yours exactly then play with it for different options in the future, and to practice brainstorming with it. It really is wonderful how it clarifies thought just to contemplate a schematic vs a wiring diagram. I just started and found the 5-way switch as the basis, so I think I'm off to a good start. I think my dread at dealing with guitar wiring design is turning into fun. Much appreciated John! |
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 13, 2024 9:31:14 GMT -5
reTrEaD The compass I used to test polarity was sitting out on my work table, when I noticed a peculiar thing, the needle was pointing south! I hadn't even considered my compass might have had its polarity reversed at some point. So that means my outer coils are actually South. This doesn't change my last diagram other than the labelling of the polarity, but it's interesting to know that the neck pickup's color codes are as one would expect, with Schecter using Duncan's codes, but it's the bridge which is reversed.
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 19, 2024 18:43:35 GMT -5
Here's the final diagram with corrected coils and color codes. I decided instead of using 50s on the neck position pots to use a treble bleed. I think I might just set up a different bleed for each set of pots.  |
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Post by unreg on Apr 20, 2024 0:05:18 GMT -5
reTrEaD The compass I used to test polarity was sitting out on my work table, when I noticed a peculiar thing, the needle was pointing south! I hadn't even considered my compass might have had its polarity reversed at some point. … Um… maybe I’m digging a hole for myself, but compass needles point to wherever north is; if the compass was upside down on your desk, then it’s working perfectly. If you have an iPhone, you might load its Compass app and double check your real compass. Or, get a new compass. I’m sry your compass had a polar reversal  ; that’s insane. |
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 20, 2024 6:28:38 GMT -5
reTrEaD The compass I used to test polarity was sitting out on my work table, when I noticed a peculiar thing, the needle was pointing south! I hadn't even considered my compass might have had its polarity reversed at some point. … Um… maybe I’m digging a hole for myself, but compass needles point to wherever north is; if the compass was upside down on your desk, then it’s working perfectly. If you have an iPhone, you might load its Compass app and double check your real compass. Or, get a new compass. I’m sry your compass had a polar reversal ; that’s insane. Thanks for writing! I appreciate you writing for me to double-check, but I do know where north is, especially in my home! The compass was sitting facing up on my desk; it has a metal shell, so I would not have been able to read it if it were upside down. That prompted me to research the phenomenon, and I learned both that this is not unheard of and that it can happen for a few reasons, including exposing it to a very strong magnet. We bought this particular compass just as a photo prop, not intending ever to use it for navigation, so there was no need to test it before this. It was a happy accident that I happened to noticed it was pointing the wrong way, just for my learning experience from this project. 🙂 From my screwdriver tap test I was able to verify the actual orientation of the wires of each coil, so it does not affect my actual wiring, only how the pickups' polarity is labeled on my diagram. Reconciling the reverse polarity of the compass with the factory wiring, I learned Schecter's color codes are in fact correct for each pickup; i.e , neither is reversed. I knew for sure from checking their factory wiring their series link codes followed Duncan and that bridge black and neck red went to hot when wired for bridge inner, neck outer, so I could deduce the the actual color code polarity from that! 🙂 |
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Post by unreg on Apr 20, 2024 13:26:20 GMT -5
The compass was sitting facing up on my desk; it has a metal shell, so I would not have been able to read it if it were upside down. Err… you’re welcome, but I should have written: “rotated 180°”, not “ upside down.” But, I’m happy your current polar reversed compass has been, surprisingly, helpful. |
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 20, 2024 14:15:24 GMT -5
The compass was sitting facing up on my desk; it has a metal shell, so I would not have been able to read it if it were upside down. Err… you’re welcome, but I should have written: “rotated 180°”, not “ upside down.” But, I’m happy your current polar reversed compass has been, surprisingly, helpful. Okay, so you were making sure I understand how to read a compass. |
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Post by unreg on Apr 20, 2024 14:56:38 GMT -5
Yes, hence my hole digging. If a compass is read wrong, applying that incorrect info will result with harm… I was remembering my scouting blunders. Sry for this; you know how to read a compass.
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 22, 2024 8:50:41 GMT -5
Yes, hence my hole digging. If a compass is read wrong, applying that incorrect info will result with harm… I was remembering my scouting blunders. Sry for this; you know how to read a compass. No need to apologize. I just didn't understand what you were getting at. It didn't occur to me there are those who are not familiar with how compasses work. Thanks for your help! |
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 22, 2024 9:44:43 GMT -5
Okay, I finally wired the damn thing. This is what I actually used, and it turned out correct; I had the switch backwards previously. Thanks very much again to everyone for sharing your insight; everything I've learned here has been huge to me. I reexamined my feellings about 50s wiring vs treble bleeds, since I know for sure I was wrong once before (I think it was in the 80s), so I knew it was remotely possible for me to be wrong again. I remembered JohnH's fantastic Better Treble Bleed thread and decided to give various options a try. I've been surprised that in most electronics with consumer connecting parts that quick connects are used, but in guitar, one is relegated to few options. I went down a rabbit hole to discover that one name for types of wire connectors EMG uses is DuPont wire. This is inexpensive and easy to order, so I got in a pack several months ago. I decided that, for the purposes of testing various treble bleeds, I'd just solder the male ends of a couple of DuPont wires to the volume pot in order to be able to switch between values on the fly:  I know it ain't purdy, but I was just twisting resistors quickly for tone tests, and this worked quite well. Anyway, I tried many different options, cap only, cap and resistor in parallel, and cap and resistor in series. I like to ride my volume knobs down to low settings, and did find that the 150k .82nF combination sounded completely natural (here I'm using a 470k and 220k in parallel to achieve ~150k. I'm still deciding which way I want to go, because I found that caps between 100 and 330 pF on their own on my pickups in parallel yielded pretty convincing strat tones. I spent yesterday just experimenting with values, and it helped narrow the field. I tried all sorts of tones to, to experience the bleeds in context. One thing I found is that these dual concentric knobs are just a wee tall for a Floyd bar; it keeps getting hung up on the top of my neck dual concentric. So I'm considering getting rid of the tone pot altogether and replacing it with a 470k and 33k resistor in series, to keep a natural feeling load. I figure the way I use a tone pot is usually just to keep the treble roll off as natural as possible anyway, and the parallel 150k .82nF combination does that for me, so I could go to a traditional pot for each pickup, with just a volume control and a "tone pot on 10" minor load. This also frees me to use a sealed pot to avoid worrying about DeoxIT'ing them later (good luck finding sealed dual concentrics that are full size!). But, if I go this way and take away the versatility of a tone pot, I've got to make sure my bleed is dead on. It's very important to me to have independent volume control on the pickups, so I believe this idea might suit be best. I'm pretty sure this 150k .82nF parallel bleed will be ideal for the bridge, especially since my new wiring allows for a thin parallel bridge option, but I do like the idea of rolling my neck back to very loose approximations of single-coil type tones. I know with a good bleed, like just a 220pF cap on the neck in parallel with the volume knob way down, e.g., I can dial in an amp to make my guitar sound stratty, but the question is, will it still sound good with the guitar volume knob dimed? I'll be examining all this and more in the next episode. |
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Post by JohnH on Apr 22, 2024 16:06:58 GMT -5
I'm glad you're trying out the treble-bleed recipes and it's good to experiment to find what sounds best for you at the reduced volume that you use. It's also good thst none of them affect the full-volume tone so that is always available.
You may notice that the ones with parallel resistors slow down the pot taper, which personaly I like on a log pot, to make it more controllable turning down.
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 22, 2024 16:20:58 GMT -5
I'm glad you're trying out the treble-bleed recipes and it's good to experiment to find what sounds best for you at the reduced volume that you use. It's also good thst none of them affect the full-volume tone so that is always available. You may notice that the ones with parallel resistors slow down the pot taper, which personaly I like on a log pot, to make it more controllable turning down. Thanks John. I'm grateful for the research you engaged in for that thread, many times over as users kept suggesting other ideas haha! It's funny that, after spending an entire day just playing with values, it hit me hard that 50s wiring really did sound dull in comparison. I've read many different posts about mods that affect pot taper, but I'm always surprised that I tend never to notice, I think because I never look at my pots to achieve a tone! I've been on numberless dual concentric knobs for so damn long, I don't even try to gauge where a setting might land on a number scale. In my mind it's just, "I need some air, so roll back," or "I'm p  d off, so I'll push it harder." If I need a particular precise setting, often I'll just roll to 10 and hit my foot controller for the right tone; I'll ride the knobs after I've landed and I feel I need more dynamics to get my idea across. Regardless, it's good to know that this allows for greater room to maneuver! I'm actually getting more and more excited about the freedom to shed the tone knob, so I may find a greater attention to pot position when I'm no longer preoccupied with constant high pass correction as I'm playing! |
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Post by stateofepicicity on Apr 24, 2024 21:50:39 GMT -5
Now that I've found this life changing treble bleed and spent some days playing with it, I feel free not to use tone pots now (which is so liberating!). But I don't know if there's a real difference in load between a tone pot at 10 and no tone pot at all, so I've mocked up a scenario in which I'm replacing my tone pots with resistors, simulating a tone pot that's there, but always on 10 for each volume pot. But I wonder if this is really necessary at all. Is this idea is just pure silliness? Here are my questions: - I don't know if I really need to have the 33K resistor in series with the 470K to achieve the value of a 503K tone pot. There is so much variance in actual pot values, it seems like just going with the 470K to ground to simulate the tone pot would be fine, and totally in line with standard 20% tolerances. Am I right in that thinking?
- Further, if I'm simulating a tone pot at 10, does it really need the .022 cap in there at all?
- Is this whole idea of having a tone cap simulation poppycock? I don't know if a tone pot at 10 is really completely out of the circuit and avoids loading the pickup at all at that point. I can't tell if what I've drawn here belongs in crazy town.
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; that’s insane.