Zero Hum Strat Coil

[angelodp]

Wow this thread just went puff...... can we possibly get pics of the results woody?? Would love to see the woven technique

thanks A

[newey]

Angelo-

Don't know what you mean by "went puff", the thread and all the pics are still here. But woody hasn't posted since March of 2007 so I doubt we'll be getting any more photos.

[toddw]

I realize this is an old thread, but I have a Seymour Duncan P-Rail, which basically has a cloth tape outer edge and a metal base. I am not worried about noise when it's humbucking, but it will also be used as a P90 and a rail, which won't be "humbucking".

The poles go all the way through the base, which is metal. Can I simply wrap copper shielding tape around the entire PUP, and then ground the tape and the metal base? Or do I need to partly wrap it (95%) and then ground the base and tape. Or, do I actually need to partly wrap each coil?

Also, I was planning to avoid taking it apart, but if I have too, should I shield the inside of the top cover too?

Thanks,
Todd

[ChrisK]

I have mixed feelings on the close shielding of pickup coils.

If your shielding makes a complete turn around the coil, you have a broad shorted turn which will tend to remove some high frequencies/harmonics. It will also have additional capacitance to ground from the windings. This is why covered pickups are "warmer" (as in less high frequencies) with a slightly shifted lower frequency response curve than the identical pickup "uncovered".

This is why many folk "decanted" their pickups in times past.

I have a dual P-Rail project afoot, an alder Tele body with a Tele bridge. Of course it will have all pickup (and coil) combinations dimensionally possible.

I think that covered coils are best for the ultra-clean sounds. I'd rather shield the pickup cavity and pickguard as the winding/shell created thereby is further from the coil and magnets, and should have significantly less tonal effect.

IMHO

[toddw]

Thanks. The pup is going in a 22 1/2 scale tele for my daughter, and given the shorter scale, I suspect the bass will be a bit weaker anyway, so the full loop might not be a bad idea. Especially since I plan to use a neck P-rail in the bridge position. I was worried the bridge P-rail wouldn't match the output of the silver or light blue lace sensor I'll be putting in the neck position.

So guess I'll have to think about it some. There won't be a pick guard, one piece quilted maple top, but I could shield the cavities.

Thanks again,
Todd

[ChrisK]

The pup is going in a 22 1/2 scale tele for my daughter, and given the shorter scale, I suspect the bass will be a bit weaker anyway, so the full loop might not be a bad idea.

Unless you are going to use heavier gauge strings, the 22 1/2" scale will make the guitar sound darker. Everything will be a bit weaker and the guitar will not be as bright as a Strat. It'll go "doink" rather than "boing".

As a result, I'd want to preserve as much of the highs as possible.

Unless the maple top is over 1/4" thick, it's not going to contribute much brightness. The maple topped LP has brightness from the top being 5/8" thick around the pickups and bridge.


I don't know what "so the full loop might not be a bad idea" means.

I would keep track of this thread as well;

What to do with a mini-strat

[toddw]

Hi Chris,

We have a mini strat now, ~22 1/2 scale. It's my son's, but it's still too big for him and for my daughter, but it's what she's playing now. It actually sounds fairly close to my full sized strat plus, which is amazing to me. No doink, but it is a bit muddier, so point taken!

My daughter's tele will have a 5/8" maple top. Below that is a 3/16" layer of wenge, and below that, is mahogany with two wenge stringers. Then neck is mahagany as well, also with two matching wenge laminates, carbon fiber rods and a bubinga fingerboard. The neck pocket will go down to the wenge laminate.

Given your point about the tone, I guess I'll have to go with a Lace Gold, Silver or a Chrome dome to avoid the mud. It also makes me glad I got the neck P-rail

Thank you again.
Todd

[newey]

Todd, let me get this straight.

Your son has a mini-Strat.

Your daughter is getting a custom-made mahogany-and-wenge guitar with a maple top and bubinga fingerboard, sporting a Lace Sensor and the new P-rail.

She wouldn't be daddy's favorite, now would she? ;D ;D ;D

[toddw]

Hey, he's only six. No favorites, I built him a mini 17" scale tele with a lace sensor and a 3watt tube amp. Then he decided to stick with piano. I bought the mini strat on a whim when the tele migrated to my friends house. It stopped Eli from getting upset I loaned his guitar to Mike's 4 y/o son, who plays with it every day.

Eli had been asking about violin for over a year. but when I finally got set for lessons two weeks ago he said maybe he wants to play "spanish guitar" instead. No idea where that came from and when he decides between violin and guitar . . .

Maddy actually has a Daisy Rock Heart guitar. It's so poorly balanced she plays the mini strat instead through her 1/2 watt pink tube amp, Eli doesn't mind. We're building the custom tele "together". Turns out together means she keeps me company every once in a while while I work on it ;D

No favorites, honest! Thread hijack over

[axekicker]

Where can I find copper fabric? Will copper foil also work? Anyway, thanks for the thread, I definitely want to try this. And please put up some pics. Thanks!

[rabidgerry]

I'm thinking of trying this on some single coils. What happened the photos? Also what the hell kinda material is metal fabric? isn't it to bulky to fit inside a single coil pup cover?

Ok few questions first:

My guitar is quiet with no gain - is this the standard at which one deems their axe quiet?

When I've gain on of which there is allot the pickups can be hard to handle.

Second question:

Will sheilding the pup directly make it a little less noisier on hi-gain?

Third question:

When I record DI to a recording unit (portable digital multitrack thing) I seem to get the odd little crackle, like there is

A) Clipping somewhere (of which I'm 100% sure there is none possible)

B) The sound is up too loud for the headphones (of which it isn't as the crackle appears on the recorded wave)

C) some other interference from somewhere

The crackle is intermittent, only happens occassionally but pretty much ruins recordings, its quiet but not acceptable.

Sometimes when playing into the recording unit I notice hand having to touch the strings syndrome. I don't get loud noise but when I touch the string on and of occasionally got what I thought was "hand having to touch the strings syndrome" only very very quiet.

Anyways, I tried recording with a wire attached to me and directly touching the ground shield of the guitar lead. I though this would solve the issue, but I was wrong!!!

Phantom crackle just appears, can't stop it!!

So my next theory was its some noise the single coil pup is making and if I shielded the pup better I'd have better signal to noise ratio!!

Am I barking mad? Had to explain all that so you knew why I was trying to shield the pups.

[newey]

Am I barking mad?

If not yet, you will be, hanging around here . . .

My guitar is quiet with no gain - is this the standard at which one deems their axe quiet?

Yes.

Wrapping coils in foil or metal cloth has only been posited as a sort of man-the-barricades, last-ditch defense against hum. Your "crackle" sounds like a different problem, and I'm doubtful that's a viable solution to it.

[rabidgerry]

I only get the crackle it seems when I'm playing into the recorder. And its like only a millisecond long at sporadic. Not very loud either.

When I'm in our rehearsal room depending on who is in the building at the time I hear a variety of things through my guitar and amp.

For example: when the bingo people are downstairs, they have a whole floor of florecent lights that they turn on, which would be near my gear on the floor above it, not directly but probably about 10ft away.

Also when bands are playing up stairs in other rooms above our room I sometimes hear their singers singing. The singing is picked up by my guitar as I walk around the room. It will go away when I play obviously as I'm much louder than what is being picked up, however it is a pain in the butt!!

I thought all this kinda stuff was stopped by the QTB mod I did on my strat, but I was wrong.

[bigjeelittlo]

Rather than start a new thread, this seems to fit here. Anyone have any experience and/or thoughts about the Suhr BPSSC? If you've not heard, the PDF below is the hype launch:

www.suhrguitars.com/downloads/pdf/BPSSC_Flyer.pdf

I have a project that might turn out to be a guitar if this device is what the PDF (and many testimonials) indicate. Price is steep, but if I can get the sound without the hum/buzz, I'd gladly part with $260, even after all of the time and money on copper foil tape, rewiring to star ground, etc.

Is this thing just too good to be true?

Thanks in advance for any response.

[newey]

Go-

Is this thing just too good to be true?

A better question is whether it's 52X better than a $5 shielding job.

Several years ago, we had a thread about this thing, and now I can't find it. I started the thread, asking the same question you asked.

As I recall no one had dropped the coin for one, but the response was distinctly underwhelming on a theoretical basis, as I recall.

My response would be that, if noise is a big issue for you even after shielding, then you should spring for a set of noiseless pickups, rather than spend hundreds on a backplate.

Some of the noisefree "SCs" got a bad rap at first, for being insufficiently "vintage" sounding. They've improved over the years. They may not sound "exactly like" a vintage SC but they're pretty goldurn close to this old man's ears.

$260 will buy a very nice set of noiseless pickups. (Like Kinmans)

[bigjeelittlo]

Thanks Newey. Good advice, but I do have a conundrum with the noiseless pups, because none of them fit my pickguard. A new pickguard appears to require me to drilll new holes. If the guitar was not a vintage model (1979 Greco SE450), I would have already purchased a pickguard assembly. If this Suhr device works, I have not changed the vintage quality of the pickups or the body. And I really do like the sound of these pups, so I want to use them.

Suhr has a money back guarantee, and the company is no slouch in the industry. I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on this and eating the cost to ship it back if it blows up. Basically, a risk of about $25. If I do this, I'll post my results here.

Thanks much, G

[newey]

I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on this and eating the cost to ship it back if it blows up.

I wouldn't expect a bang, but rather a whimper- the sound of you being underwhelmed.

Certainly, if it's an issue of maintaining a stock condition, a pickup swap may be out of the question. But have you also considered that, if a new pickguard requires drilling new holes that a backplate may likewise need redrilling? Granted, that's on the backside, but it still could affect value.

At any rate, please do report back with a full user report if you do this. Before and after recordings would be the way to present that.

[cynical1]

Jun 1, 2011 21:13:09 GMT -5 newey said:

At any rate, please do report back with a full user report if you do this. Before and after recordings would be the way to present that.

...along with $20.00 in a plain manilla envelope...

[bigjeelittlo]

newey - the BPSSC could be modifed to fit if need be without affecting its noise limiting effect. Still have the original backplate, so the guitar can be restored fairly easily. It's no collector's item, but filling and drilling is just something I can't do...yet. Everything I've done (thorough and careful shielding with conductive copper tape, wax potting the pups, rewire with good quality wire and star ground) seems less extreme than taking a drill bit to the body. All of those steps helped, but it's still noisy enough that I feel like I can't quit. I'm not planning on selling it, but its vintage quality is a good portion of the reason it's fun to play. I will do a before and after recording, unless the BPSSC doesn't help, in which case I won't waste the time. So no follow up means the BPSSC was a $25 mistake. But at least I'll lose the wondering.

@c1 - yeah, I am grateful for all of the good advice. I know it must seem like I've got plenty of cash, but really it's more of an obsession with a guitar that plays and sounds better (to me) than any single coil guitar I've had the pleasure to know. Maybe if I had more money, I'd already own something far better...

[cynical1]

All kidding aside, we've had this discussion here a few times before regarding purist versus mad scientist. There are two firmly entrenched camps and both make a good argument.

As you've said before, you're not selling the guitar. Besides, unless you painted it pink and layered it in Hello Kitty stickers you're not going to kill the resale value by making your necessary modifications.

My thought is this. A guitar, unless it has a history or circumstance that places it in the "investment" category, then whatever makes the the guitar sound or play better is fair game.

As you've mentioned, this guitar is noisy past the point of acceptable. This factor tends to make guitars border on unplayable. If it's unplayable, it also tends to sit and collect dust...thereby turning it into an instrument in name only.

Where this is going is simple. If the guitar feels good, but is noisy, then making it quiet makes it more valuable...if to no one else, but to you.

A small investment in some multi-use tools* and you can make these improvements and not drastically effect the aesthetics of the guitar.

NBNAM

Happy Trails

Cynical One


*These are tools meant for the guitar, but can arguably be palmed off as something useful around the house. A very good ploy with the significant other in tool acquisition.

[bigjeelittlo]

C1 - Agreed on all counts, except where my knowledge and ability falls short, which leaves me not fit to agree.

This particular thread began years ago with what seemed to be yet another method to attack the dreaded 60 cycle hum/buzz. But I don't have the knowledge or ability to apply what Woody inferred as a simple solution. Same goes with "multi-use tools," because I lack knowledge and ability to apply them as hum/buzz reducers.

However, I am qualified to agree that the unitasker BPSSC is only a good option as a last resort. So I have to ask, what are these "multi-use tools," and can a lowly Apprentice Shielder with no Karma acquire the knowledge and ability to apply them for less than $245 (total cost, in dollars, sweat, blood, wifely unhappiness, etc)?

Thanks again for continued advice, G

[cynical1]

Jun 2, 2011 16:05:24 GMT -5 bigjeelittlo said:

C1 - Agreed on all counts, except where my knowledge and ability falls short, which leaves me not fit to agree.

There is nothing within the scope of what you need to do that you can't master, or perform said tasks effectively.

So I have to ask, what are these "multi-use tools," and can a lowly Apprentice Shielder with no Karma acquire the knowledge and ability to apply them for less than $245 (total cost, in dollars, sweat, blood, wifely unhappiness, etc)?

OK, first off, the blood, sweat and wifely unhappiness are free. The last one is unavoidable anyway, so don't try to lump that in here...

I know you have a soft spot for the original pickups. As I'm sure you're aware, one definition of insanity is to keep trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result... If it were me, I'd be looking to dump them for some noiseless single coils. My preference would be some Lawrence Wilde pickups, but there are many others out there to choose from.

Which leads to the second part...the tools... If you don't have one, a Dremel tool set is almost a given. With the right set of attachments and accessories you can accomplish quite a few different tasks that other tools just can't match. And running the tool at a lower speed offers better control and helps to avoid the irretrievable mishap by digging too far too fast....

Another indispensable tool is a drill press. You don't have to drop big money on a drill press. A consumer grade will suffice...and if you can score one used you can possibly get a higher quality unit for less then new. Freehanding your pickguard holes is just asking for it.

While you probably don't need one for this project, a router and a simple router table are another valuable multi-purpose tool. With a single coil template and a top bearing router bit you can clean up all your pickguard slots in no time and all the radii will be clean.

The $245.00 magic number is attainable. Taking a bit more time and acquiring the proper tools and equipment...along with some new pickups, will give you years of life out of that guitar. So, is it worth taking an extra 3-6 months to do it right so you can get 20 more years out of it? If you did, this time next year all the questions and concerns are just a memory and the guitar is in steady rotation in the stable.

If you have specific problems or questions let me know. I'm sure I created more questions then I answered. This thread has bounced around so many times my aging brain has lost track...sg must be thoroughly stumped...

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[ashcatlt]

Bigjee - you're talking about a Dummy Coil which is the sticky thread directly below this. It gets a little weird there since it seems a certain Santellan has since deleted his contribution (I find this suspcious...), but this post explains how you might roll your own version of tha Suhr thing and save oodles.

[sumgai]

ash,

Santellan detailed his reasons for those deletions (there were quite a few) in a post last year. In summary, it was part of an agreement he worked out with the person/company who bought him out. I can understand that, even if I don't like it any more than you or the rest of the Nutz. (In any forum setting, continuity is king - without it, guesswork makes a real hash out of what should've been simple.)

HTH



sumgai

[bigjeelittlo]

Thanks Ash! I searched but did not find that particular thread. Interesting approach that loses me somewhat, so I need to study a bit further. So I have two alternatives to the BPSSC to research at this point.

Thanks much Gents!

[ourclarioncall]

Anyone tried the copper mesh ? Or silver paint ?

I’m not quite understanding what you do with the paint

I’m not seeing any pics on this thread if there is any

[helpingfriendly]

Oct 26, 2007 13:11:55 GMT -5 stratatouille said:

M. Azrael wrotes "I have two single coils in my Strat that are shielded, and they have very little hum. I don't think it dulls the tone or makes them sound muddy"

M. Azreal also wrotes "but they are a tiny bit darker."

Well, which is it M. Azreal? Tiny bit darker, or don't think it dulls the tone?

Tiny bit darker is a bit of treble being lost, no? This is all that was being implies, and if you are okay with that, how you say "okee-dokee then".

"I don't mind it at all" is a statement of your personal preference.

Is fair statement, but still does affect tone, as implies. Yes?

Good to know you did this with satisfactory result. Great job.

Okay.

M. Strat

In some people's opinion that could be a good thing 😏