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Post by 4real on Jun 17, 2007 0:18:23 GMT -5
Hmmm...well the wiring is slightly evolving...
I ditched the series parallel switch, it was working but the sound was not that usable (far to great a drop in output)...certainly not worth drilling a hole for the switch for...
Still...except for some glitches that are still to be worked out (I am having trouble working out what is on and how on each setting)...I am getting some really interesting sounds...
in particular, the spin a split in combined postions, especially the middle click, has this amazing wha sound as you spin it. I wired the tone pot to the neck pickup only (which I think will be better than a master tone) and this effects the depth of the wha sound...you reallycan get a talking sound by only moving the split knob a few degrees...neato...
I have also been playing with my third coil HB experiment. I wired it to the spin-a-split and get an interesting effect. It appears that the coil is quite an effective pickup and on one end is the normal HB, the middle a quieter single coil...then on the other a slightly different HB sound. It reduces the wha effect I think and so am trying other applications...
As I say, there has been a few glitches...the only way to really wire one of these superswitches is to take each switch set at a time and methodically do all the connections...
Also...this is still not quite compensating for the loss of the middle pickup...lot's of sounds that are interesting, but nothing approaching a classic sound, strat or otherwise...yet! Anythoughts on getting something like the hollowed strat sound of positions 2 or 4...some of these settings are a little "chewy" if that makes any sense...
At the moment I am using the first diagram of johns (without the phase switch) and substiting the spin-a-split for the splitter switch to ground...help or advice appreciated...
pete
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Post by UnklMickey on Jun 17, 2007 1:05:44 GMT -5
Hi Pete,
You just aren't gonna get the Strat "quack" with the pickup locations you have. The spacing between the pickups is important here. No middle pickup = no quack.
With Neck and Bridge SC, you will get a Tele-ish sound. The Tele pickups are quite different, and the Bridge pickup is mounted on the metal bridge plate. But the spacing is just about what you have.
The ONLY way to get the quack, is to have a Middle and Bridge, or Middle and Neck.
cheers, Unk
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Post by 4real on Jun 17, 2007 4:36:11 GMT -5
quack would be nice but limited as you say by the number and placement of the pickups. This guitar did have nice neck/middle quack but having a HB in the neck...it was wired to give a kind of sharp tele-esque type bridge pickup tone (but nothing like as good...think faux country). Actually for a very basic switch this guitar did have a nice variety of tones... sigh... however... now it has a surprising number of tones...a few more plays with the wiring and now this scheme is showing it's true colours...certainly has variety! The spin-s-split is a great option on this guitar with this scheme...more so than a simple switch. You get a fake wha in the centre click or a control to dial out some of that naselly sound...the 4 position is quite powerful, but this control can be used there to balance the volume with the neck pickup and brighten it up a bit (it is a great balance for the HB sounding like a full bodies overwound neck pickup, I assume this position is in series?...I may even move it to the top click for easy access it's so nice and was naot a sound available before)...the no#2 position is a bit like the middle click, a bit like a cocked wha (it's the one I would loose if I can cook up an alternative)...the bridge pickup is full blown but now has a coil tap. The tone operates on the neck pickup and has some interesting interactions with the split control (could still do with some tweeking...it is a 500k pot but now working on a SC pickup only, so perhaps there is something I could play with there...) I really needed to keep fiddling with this varying the connections...I think I was getting the bridge side of the HB before and these weedy sounds were a bit extreme...I have a more usable combination now with a bit of tweaking... Back to the quack...anyone got any details on this...or experience... www.guitar-mod.com/rg_passive.htmlThat seeks to be an artificial quack inducer... Perhaps I could use a circuit like this to modify the 2nd position for a "quacky" HB or something to complete the palete (I know, nothing sounds the same) Another idea is that found on the JD telecaster...aparently it is a "strat type sound"...which strat sound I don't know...but I found this... www.harpamps.com/micKguitars/JD-Telecaster-Wiring.htmlWhat's going on there? So...a success for the rewire, even if a bit of work and I think that the diagram works...I built both but the S/P switch really didn't work for me or this guitar, so I deleted it...the finished wiring then is a cross between the two... Special thanks for the help on this, wouldn't have done it without you all...especially John for the circuitry at such short notice (and the revision)...and for giving me the time of day (and night) on procjects such as this. I am sure that I will be revisiting the wiring at some point, but better continue with the sustainer project and see how it all fits together... Speaking of which... ;D...this wiring offers some exciting possibilities there too. Not only is it a way to get more sounds while loosing the middle pickup, but as the mid-sustainer can use and source signals from all of these combinations (once we get it working ok) things like those wha type sounds will really come into their own, driving a variety of frequencies and harmonics. It is even possible that the harmonic switch is an optional feature as these effects could be achieved through pickup selection perhaps... If this proves to be so, we could be moving towards a very stock looking install...sure you loose the mid-pickup and have to rewire a bit (you have to with any sustainer really anyway) but one push-pull and the selectors could be all that is required to access all the features and more...and no drilling into the guitar!!! Anyway...no luck with the use of the dummy coil. The pickup coil has developed a short (probably the tape has moved and I will have to take it out and adjust it...I should have used better wires, and shielding)...I did use another and clipped it on here and there to see if it had any appreciable effect...but nothing to write home about in noise reduction or tone...hmmm Anyway...a relief to get the guitar back in playable condition and a lot of fun mucking around with it's new sounds...I'll see if I can make sound clips of them at some point pete
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Post by 4real on Jun 18, 2007 6:04:33 GMT -5
Pete - In case it is of interest, here’s a schematic of the switching I was discussing above. (29/05/07 EDIT - fixed in response to comments below) From top to bottom it will do Neck, Neck/Bridge in series, Neck/Bridge in parallel, Neck/Bridge in series out-of-phase, and Bridge. The single-pole coil cut switch selects coil 1, except in the OoP mode where it chooses coil 2, to maintain hum-cancelling. As to which coil is which at the bridge, that will depend on the phase and magnetic relationship of the neck and bridge pups. It may take some trial and error to get phasing and hum cancelling optimised. Ideally, I’d be looking to get coil 1 as the adjustable coil, and placed as the one furthest from the bridge. This may involve some coil connection swapping and maybe magnet flipping.This layout has no hanging or shunted coils, which may be of importance for keeping control in a guitar with all of that other sustainer electronics happening. cheers John Ok...so I have some interesting sounds happening here and it all seems to be wired correctly...except...I suspect I am getting the bridge most coil operating... So...as to the part in red above...the HB is a duncan designed so... the coil closest to the bridge is green (start) and red (finish) (adjustable poles) and the inner coil is black (start) and white (finish) according to this link... www.seymourduncan.com/support/schematics/color_codes.htmlI have the red and white wired together to the splitter pot (as was originally wired) and the black to the lower and the green to second lower switches in the diagram above...does this mean I have these wires back to front...I did try them reversed (I think) but it wasn't as drastic a range of sounds as the present arrangement...could also be a little quieter (the guitar is shielded and pretty quiet as is, but positions 2 and 4 are presently more buzzy it would seem) So...do I simply reverse these wires...I could test the polarities of the coils and SC pickup...are we looking for like coils on the neck and bridge most coils of the HB? If it comes to flipping the HB magnet...perhpas it would be easier to substitute the neck for the now homeless middle pickup which is RWRP... Maybe I could use a switch to choose between the range of sounds, or is it possible to have a pot control to fade between the two splits? I am very interested in simulating the "notched sound of the inbetween sound and I see it has been included on the JD telecaster...I found this... www.harpamps.com/micKguitars/JD-Telecaster-Wiring.html but the ASCI notation is a little hard to follow...any thoughts? Actually...a little futher background search found these details... looks like 2x6k2 resistors and a 0.01uF cap on a series out of phase combination...same combination as my position 4 also...so any ideas for adding this mod to this position...and any idea what the idea is here to get this sound? Also found this thread with this description of the wiring sounds... www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaster-discussion-forum/60377-telecaster-plus-jerry-donahue-wiring-diagrams.html?highlight=telecaster+schematicalso... it suggests that... can you really own a wiring? I also found this newsgroup article... 72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:NWG5YZiL4bkJ:www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Faqs/faq/faq.pickup_rewiring.txt+jerry+donahue+telecaster+wiring+schematic&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=24&gl=au&client=firefox-asee about half way down... also this post... this is another interesting implementation of a phase switch along similar lines... Ok...so I am researching while posting...hope that's not bad...I found this interesting though and a few cool ideas that could be adapted for other wiring applications... any suggestions or help implementing this mod to johns wiring would be appreciated... pete
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Post by JohnH on Jun 18, 2007 6:33:29 GMT -5
OK, Ill read that later!
But how about first getting the coils sorted out to be in phase, and hum cancelling? Obviously you have the SD pup colours sorted out relative to itself, but its not clear how to relate them to the other pup. Do you have an analogue multimeter? If so the 'screwdriver pull-off test' will identify relative phase.
Step 1 Getting sound in phase
Set to the lowest volts setting, and test the output when a screwdriver tip is placed on a pole of a connected coil and lifted quickly. All coils in all settings should cause a needle jump in the same direction, except for the second lowest switch positon, which reverses bridge phase. If the neck pup is jumping a different way, you could reverse its wires.
Step 2 Humcancelling
Once its all sounding in phase, you can optimise the coil cut setting, to get hum cancellation with the neck. In all the combo settings with a single bridge coil, you should get at least a reduction in hum, if not full cancelation. If not, and asumming the sounds are sorted out as in step 1 above, then swap the bridge coils without changing their phase direction, ie swap red with black and green with white.
How did it go?
John
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Post by 4real on Jun 19, 2007 20:40:50 GMT -5
Ok...maybe not a "quack"...but definitely a cluck!
I swapped the HB wires around as john suggested and got an immediate improvement in sound quality...a whole different range of very usable sounds
I even get some intereting "quacky sounds in a couple of positions and can modify them quite a bit with the spin-a-split control...I am not sure why that might be really if the Superswitch is automatically splitting the coils for those combined positions.
It now seems to be selecting the inner coil as the schematic intended (except in position 4) and is pretty quiet (it is a quiet guitar anyway even with the SC neck pickup)
You can even get some beautiful deeper but articulate "jazz" sounds with the tone control in the combined positions, avoiding the muffled tone of typical tones by working on the neck pickup only.
There is still room for some tweaking...reversing the wires now connected to the HB yeilds slightly different but eaqually pleasant sounds. The sounds described previously were interesting, but really a novelty...this now has a quality to them in all positions.
There is probably still some problems with the polarities of the selections...both the neck pickup and the bridge slug pole inner coil that is generally selected are the same magnetic polarity...(I tested it with a magnet)...I may have to change the magnet around in the HB or change the neck pickup for the middle pickup which has a reverse polarity...will there be a change in tones do you think from this procedure?
Otherwise...this wiring is only getting better and better...there is a broader palete for sure now than that of the three pickup standard wiring of before...this would be an ideal mod for a telecaster and there is a lot of the tele sound in some of these settings...nice
thanks a lot john and guitar nuts...I will be sure to plug this forum a lot as the guitar goes into it's next transformation with the "new generation" sustainer...I am sure there will be a lot of interest as this comes together...
pete
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Post by JohnH on Jun 20, 2007 2:31:30 GMT -5
Pete - great to hear it is sounding good. Its slightly curious if you are ending up with neck and Hb selected coils being the same magnetic polarity. As far as I can see, if it sounds in phase, then it would tend not to be hum cancelling. In say, position 3 on the switch, is Hb inner coil combined with neck, more or less hum than neck alone or Hb inner coil alone? and does it sound full and in-phase?
Reversing connections to coils changes phase and reverses hum. Flipping magnets will change phase of the sound but not reverse the hum.
If you are happy with the sounds, and also with the Hb coil that is being selected with the spinasplit, but if hum cancelling is not optimum in single coil combos, then the best fix is probably to swap the neck with the old Mid pup, wired the same way. That will keep all sound phase the same, and just reverse hum.
If its all Ok though, Id leave it as it is and just tiptoe slowly away...
John
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Post by 4real on Jun 20, 2007 5:56:45 GMT -5
No...I don't think I will do that The combined settings do have a phased sound and I think it could be more noise cancelling...it is acceptably quiet though... I am confused though with the splitter control...how come it is having an effect (often dramatic) on these combined settings? Shouldn't these settings automatically split the HB and so make the spin-a-split obsolete? I also want to try this cap and resistor mod and a few other things... That said...the way it is working now is quite appealing if you like those hollowed out stratty tones...perhaps I should add a phase switch to the neck pickup to allow both ranges of tones from this thing... I have wired the middle pickup with shielded cable and will install it tomorrow, maybe try a bit of cap magic on the switch and see what the effect is like... Certainly though, this wiring is a winner in many guises...there have been no really bad sounds, some unusual and some really beautiful... Thanks again... pete
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Post by JohnH on Jun 20, 2007 6:46:05 GMT -5
Pete - the 5 way switch is doing combinations of the neck with the whole bridge pup (whether its split or not), single, series OoP, parallel and series in-phase. It doesnt do any coil cutting itself, so all the sounds involving the bridge on the 5-way are changed by the split control.
cheers
John
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Post by 4real on Jun 20, 2007 21:51:00 GMT -5
Thanks John...that clears it up a bit...
I should have heeded this advice...changing the neck pickup for the RWRP middle did not help at all and I seemed to loose something in this transition, so I put it back...
I also tried all kinds of things with that dummy coil to no good effect...it actually worked as a pickup quite effectively alone (even without a core) so, as I had to take it apart to swap the pickup back, I removed it...if only for neatness...
I tried some cap experiments but nothing spectacular to report...
I will do some more tweaking...but for now I'd better get on with the sustainer project...
pete
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